Salary Cap: Roster-building thread Part XXXVII : Why can't we always play like that?

[KIRK]

What team(s) and what return(s) do you expect in regards to Sutter?

Also who do you see on Malkin's wing that you are either paying for in FA (cap space) or trading for (assets)?

It seem like people want to get rid of Sutter with few realistic expectations about return, replacement, or upgrading the team.

(Again Spaling is Sutter who doesn't produce as much on his own and Winnik hasn't consistently played center and most of his production is from top 6 minutes & teammates. At best, they are stop-gaps.)

IF you make that long term commitment to Sutter, then it's done. That cap flexibility is gone. Not just for next year, but for however long Sutter is under contract.

So, who do you put on Malkin's wing then next year if you keep Sutter? And then the next several years given this team's organizational assets up front?

See, the question works both ways . . .

Colligan's point, and I think it's a good one, is that to get a game from Sutter that's going to justify what it will cost long term to keep him, you're going to need to put about 6M on his wings. That's not viable with Sid and Geno in the top six, not unless you want to continue to partially neutralize them.

EDIT: What you just wrote, really, that's the logic behind the Kunitz and Dupuis extensions . . . 'gotta sign them to market value, because what else can you get'.

 

[plaidchuck]

Lol fleury is not good enough for lottery teams? You may hate the guy, but come on now. Oh wait, hes on a limited nmc so he's not going there anyways.

 

[KIRK]

What are we getting in return for Sutter? He has one year left on his deal and can get stupid money next summer if he chooses to. I don't buy his trade value exceeds his value to our team if he buys into being a 3C here. Obviously, if he wants a bigger role elsewhere, then you get what you can.

I'm not sure anything north of 4M isn't stupid money given this team's more pressing need to, at long last, build around Sid and Geno. 5M wouldn't be stupid money if he could generate anything 5 on 5, but he really can't. And, as I said, this really is the type of thinking that has gotten the Pens into trouble in the last few years, the idea that the something that has to give should be Sid and Geno. Get the assets. Spaling as a stop gap, bank the short and long term cap flexibility.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There is no way those C's are available without steep costs (think Letang or Maatta not Fleury & Sutter). Neither team needs to trade their C's and neither Sutter nor Fleury are good or cheap enough to entice BUF and EDM.

Also I am continually surprised by people expecting this team to draft and develop talent. What good are first and second round picks when they become Despres (Lovejoy) or Bennett?

OK, well first off, I see the market value of those four assets differently. For me, they would be ranked like this (from most valuable to other teams, to least):

Fleury
Letang
Maatta
Sutter

The first two easily nets you a '15 first + something else of value, Maatta should not be traded under any circumstances unless you're convinced he'll never be able to overcome his shoulder issues (and at this point we don't know anything of the sort), and Sutter can fetch a second in '15 or a prospect.

Secondly, drafting and developing talent is non-negotiable. Either we start doing it or we'll never win again. It's really that simple.

Lol fleury is not good enough for lottery teams? You may hate the guy, but come on now. Oh wait, hes on a limited nmc so he's not going there anyways.

Veteran players will be willing to go to teams like Edmonton and Buffalo now. Players the caliber of McDavid and Eichel have that impact. We were able to get Gonchar, Palffy, LeClair and Recchi once Crosby was drafted (with Malkin on the way). These locations become far more desirable all of a sudden.

I'm not sure anything north of 4M isn't stupid money given this team's more pressing need to, at long last, build around Sid and Geno. 5M wouldn't be stupid money if he could generate anything 5 on 5, but he really can't. And, as I said, this really is the type of thinking that has gotten the Pens into trouble in the last few years, the idea that the something that has to give should be Sid and Geno. Get the assets. Spaling as a stop gap, bank the short and long term cap flexibility.

Yeah, I agree with all of this (except the Spaling part, I think he's too expensive for what he brings to the table).

Besides, good ol' JR will want Jordan Staal back...that's his solution to this mess we have up front.

I want someone not named Jordan Staal or Brandon Sutter as the No. 3 center next season. Sundqvist, maybe. Maybe we can get a big, young center. Maybe we look elsewhere.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of keeping Lapierre around for Line 4, assuming he won't cost much more than he does at present time.

 

[drpepper]

IF you make that long term commitment to Sutter, then it's done. That cap flexibility is gone. Not just for next year, but for however long Sutter is under contract.

So, who do you put on Malkin's wing then next year if you keep Sutter? And then the next several years given this team's organizational assets up front?

See, the question works both ways . . .

Colligan's point, and I think it's a good one, is that to get a game from Sutter that's going to justify what it will cost long term to keep him, you're going to need to put about 6M on his wings. That's not viable with Sid and Geno in the top six, not unless you want to continue to partially neutralize them.

EDIT: What you just wrote, really, that's the logic behind the Kunitz and Dupuis extensions . . . 'gotta sign them to market value, because what else can you get'.

No, I am suggesting that simply moving Sutter isn't that simple.

(1) The Pens need to replace Sutter at 3C. (Who?)

(2) The Pens need to replace Sutter's production and PK. (Who?) As a side note, neither Winnik or Lapierre replaces Sutter's PK minutes because they are already PKing for the team and may need their own replacements depending on whether they are re-signed (or Spaling for that matter although he is signed next year)

(3) The Pens need to obtain the best deal for Sutter. Seeing as the Pens can't scout, draft, or develop talent particularly forward talent, trading for and keeping draft picks doesn't make sense. (Where and what?)

(4) The Pens then need to upgrade the top 6. (Who and how?)

Aimlessly moving Sutter (mostly due to his possession or not liking his style) makes zero sense.

Also looking at FA and the trade market (moving Sutter), I don't see any way that Malkin and Crosby's wingers are upgraded next year. My guess is that Pens will run with something like to start with:

Kunitz/Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron/Kunitz-Malkin-Bennett/FA tweener

But your solution of moving Sutter doesn't address how you are upgrading the top 6 wingers either. Do you think Sutter is bringing back that winger?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

drpepper, you're basically giving up on the notion of a semi-rebuild (if not full reload).

And I suppose the more games we win in these playoffs, the more you will be proven right.

This year's Pens are a LOT like the 2006 Edmonton Oilers. The more games you win in the postseason, the more it will negatively affect next year's roster (and beyond).

And the Oil haven't fully recovered from that '06 Cup run, mostly because Craig MacTavish is still there and was deemed a genius after they made it to the Cup finals.


We need to have way more vision than that if we are to go anywhere in the future.

 

[mpp9]

I'm keeping every forward who shows up in the playoffs and dumping everyone who doesn't. Sort the cap out by moving on from the older D-men and plugging in who's ready of the young group.

Sutter at 4 mil given his growing track record as a playoff performer is well worth it. I'd say he's just as valuable as PH right now. And I love PH.

 

[KIRK]

drpepper, you're basically giving up on the notion of a semi-rebuild (if not full reload).

And I suppose the more games we win in these playoffs, the more you will be proven right.

This year's Pens are a LOT like the 2006 Edmonton Oilers. The more games you win in the postseason, the more it will negatively affect next year's roster (and beyond).

And the Oil haven't fully recovered from that '06 Cup run, mostly because Craig MacTavish is still there and was deemed a genius after they made it to the Cup finals.


We need to have way more vision than that if we are to go anywhere in the future.

No, I am suggesting that simply moving Sutter isn't that simple.

(1) The Pens need to replace Sutter at 3C. (Who?)

(2) The Pens need to replace Sutter's production and PK. (Who?) As a side note, neither Winnik or Lapierre replaces Sutter's PK minutes because they are already PKing for the team and may need their own replacements depending on whether they are re-signed (or Spaling for that matter although he is signed next year)

(3) The Pens need to obtain the best deal for Sutter. Seeing as the Pens can't scout, draft, or develop talent particularly forward talent, trading for and keeping draft picks doesn't make sense. (Where and what?)

(4) The Pens then need to upgrade the top 6. (Who and how?)

Aimlessly moving Sutter (mostly due to his possession or not liking his style) makes zero sense.

Also looking at FA and the trade market (moving Sutter), I don't see any way that Malkin and Crosby's wingers are upgraded next year. My guess is that Pens will run with something like to start with:

Kunitz/Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron/Kunitz-Malkin-Bennett/FA tweener

But your solution of moving Sutter doesn't address how you are upgrading the top 6 wingers either. Do you think Sutter is bringing back that winger?

Two years ago, this is exactly what I was told about Kunitz and Dupuis, and I'm certain this is exactly the argument that advocates of extending Sutter will make this summer.

Who replaces Sutter the ES 3C? That's not exactly hard to do.

Who replaces Sutter on the PK? I can think of two centers on the Penguins who might be capable.

Where and what for Sutter? I don't know, but your argument that the Pens can't draft and develop so may as well keep Sutter doesn't pass the smell test.

Who's available for Sid/Geno? Free agency? Not much. Trade market this summer? Who knows. Next deadline? Who knows. And, next summer in free agency or the trade market, or do you suggest it's best to do with Sutter what we've done this year with Martin?

Aimlessly moving Sutter makes zero sense. Aimlessly keeping him makes even less.

I'm keeping every forward who shows up in the playoffs and dumping everyone who doesn't. Sort the cap out by moving on from the older D-men and plugging in who's ready of the young group.

Sutter at 4 mil given his growing track record as a playoff performer is well worth it. I'd say he's just as valuable as PH right now. And I love PH.

Is Sutter a 4M player if Sid is killing penalties?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Judging our players based on these playoffs alone is dangerous territory, people. General Managers can't think with their hearts only. That's how a journeyman like Fernando Pisani got a multi-year contract from Edmonton after his spectacular postseason in 2006. That didn't end well.

We need to be careful here.

 

[KIRK]

Judging our players based on these playoffs alone is dangerous territory, people. General Managers can't think with their hearts only. That's how a journeyman like Fernando Pisani got a multi-year contract from Edmonton after his spectacular postseason in 2006. That didn't end well.

We need to be careful here.

That's also why the Pens have been mismanaged for the last 6 years.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Is Sutter a 4M player if Sid is killing penalties?

And Geno, too. I want Geno killing as well. Not one damn coach we've had has done this, yet Dave King saw him as a PK force when he was younger.

 

[KIRK]

And Geno, too. I want Geno killing as well. Not one damn coach we've had has done this, yet Dave King saw him as a PK force when he was younger.

Well, yeah, but I've given up on that one.

But, seriously, if we used Sid and Geno to kill penalties, then is Sutter even a 4M center? I mean, if you think about it, even strength, our 4th line is our 3rd line.

 

[mpp9]

Is Sutter a 4M player if Sid is killing penalties?

I'm in favor of Sid or Geno getting PK time to keep teams on their toes and especially if there are a ton of penalties in a game. That doesn't negate Sutter's value.

I know you're in favor of playing Sid and Geno 25 minutes/game. I'm not. You get more out of Sid if you let him go hard for 17-20. You can't be playing him big minutes on the PK and PP for that to happen.

It's not a coincidence Sid's game is where it's at right now. He's still dealing with the wrist issue he had last season. Except now, he's not tired. Playing him less over 82 games has helped big time.

 

[drpepper]

drpepper, you're basically giving up on the notion of a semi-rebuild (if not full reload).

And I suppose the more games we win in these playoffs, the more you will be proven right.

This year's Pens are a LOT like the 2006 Edmonton Oilers. The more games you win in the postseason, the more it will negatively affect next year's roster (and beyond).

And the Oil haven't fully recovered from that '06 Cup run, mostly because Craig MacTavish is still there and was deemed a genius after they made it to the Cup finals.


We need to have way more vision than that if we are to go anywhere in the future.

I am not giving up on a rebuild/retool (mini or otherwise); I disagree that that is the direction the Pens should go in at all.

I also don't agree with your Oilers comparison. The Pens already traded their draft picks and the contracts to older players were already made. The roster has already been negatively affected. However, I don't think the current roster should be destroyed in attempt to reset things or recoup losses (nor do I think it is possible to do).

I don't see any point of a retool as long as the current management (structure or personnel) is in place. They can't do what is necessary in scouting, drafting, and developing to make it worthwhile to lose contributing roster players. I also don't think waiting 2-4 years (depending on drafting and development) for a retool makes any sense with the team, fanbase, and management.

I think the best bet for continued success is preserving future draft picks (2016 draft forward) and making smart FA choices.

I think they have a higher chance of success in exploring trading Sutter, Kunitz, and Scuderi as compared to drafting. However, the emphasis should be on immediate impact & improvement on the roster not gathering draft picks.

EDIT:
As a side note, does anyone know of any analysis of Rutherford's drafting in CAR?

 

[KIRK]

I'm in favor of Sid or Geno getting PK time to keep teams on their toes and especially if there are a ton of penalties in a game. That doesn't negate Sutter's value.

I know you're in favor of playing Sid and Geno 25 minutes/game. I'm not. You get more out of Sid if you let him go hard for 17-20. You can't be playing him big minutes on the PK and PP for that to happen.

It's not a coincidence Sid's game is where it's at right now. He's still dealing with the wrist issue he had last season. Except now, he's not tired. Playing him less over 82 games has helped big time.

25 was a little hyperbolic. But, you look at their usage now . . . they could kill penalties.

Look, it's not some 'ZOMG, it's so easy and there's no downside' choice like getting rid of Scuderi (even buying him out) would be.

I'm looking at it on balance. Same way I was when I talked about trading Paul Martin a summer ago. I suppose we 'need' him now. Then again, we probably 'needed' the cap space moving him would've afforded the Pens at the deadline more.

BTW, your comment about Sid reminds me of something Therrien once said about him and Geno. Therrien always felt the ideal usage for Sid was like 17-20 minutes given how he plays and for Malkin was more like 22 minutes. I think he saw Sid as someone who was just balls to the wall and for whom each shift was a unique game within a game, if you will, and Malkin as someone for whom it was about the shifts collectively and getting him and keeping him into the flow of the game.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm in favor of Sid or Geno getting PK time to keep teams on their toes and especially if there are a ton of penalties in a game. That doesn't negate Sutter's value.

I know you're in favor of playing Sid and Geno 25 minutes/game. I'm not. You get more out of Sid if you let him go hard for 17-20. You can't be playing him big minutes on the PK and PP for that to happen.

It's not a coincidence Sid's game is where it's at right now. He's still dealing with the wrist issue he had last season. Except now, he's not tired. Playing him less over 82 games has helped big time.

25 was a little hyperbolic. But, you look at their usage now . . . they could kill penalties.

Look, it's not some 'ZOMG, it's so easy and there's no downside' choice like getting rid of Scuderi (even buying him out) would be.

I'm looking at it on balance. Same way I was when I talked about trading Paul Martin a summer ago. I suppose we 'need' him now. Then again, we probably 'needed' the cap space moving him would've afforded the Pens at the deadline more.

BTW, your comment about Sid reminds me of something Therrien once said about him and Geno. Therrien always felt the ideal usage for Sid was like 17-20 minutes given how he plays and for Malkin was more like 22 minutes. I think he saw Sid as someone who was just balls to the wall and for whom each shift was a unique game within a game, if you will, and Malkin as someone for whom it was about the shifts collectively and getting him and keeping him into the flow of the game.

Personally, I don't think it would be asking Sid to change his game completely, but I would want him to play in more situations and perhaps 'pick his spots' a little when he's on the ice. I want Sid and Geno on the ice as much as possible. The great ones in history know how to stay out longer than other players, know when to attack and when to preserve, etc.

Of course, if they're not getting blindsided every game and roughed up all the time, this would be a lot easier to implement (which then leads to talk about the archaic enforcer debate, which I won't get into now).

I am not giving up on a rebuild/retool (mini or otherwise); I disagree that that is the direction the Pens should go in at all.

I also don't agree with your Oilers comparison. The Pens already traded their draft picks and the contracts to older players were already made. The roster has already been negatively affected. However, I don't think the current roster should be destroyed in attempt to reset things or recoup losses (nor do I think it is possible to do).

I don't see any point of a retool as long as the current management (structure or personnel) is in place. They can't do what is necessary in scouting, drafting, and developing to make it worthwhile to lose contributing roster players. I also don't think waiting 2-4 years (depending on drafting and development) for a retool makes any sense with the team, fanbase, and management.

I think the best bet for continued success is preserving future draft picks (2016 draft forward) and making smart FA choices.

I think they have a higher chance of success in exploring trading Sutter, Kunitz, and Scuderi as compared to drafting. However, the emphasis should be on immediate impact & improvement on the roster not gathering draft picks.

EDIT:
As a side note, does anyone know of any analysis of Rutherford's drafting in CAR?

OK, well fair enough then. You're talking about moves made by THIS regime. I'm ASSUMING we have another regime in place. And a whole new way of thinking.

If you want to continue down the current path, then good 'ol JR is probably your best bet. His drafting record isn't good, but he is fairly good at player-for-player trades. So if that's what you want, then OK.

I am never a fan of staying mediocre, so that's why I want to blow this up as quickly as possible.

But if we're keeping this management team, yikes! I shudder to think of the player we'd get back in return for Scuderi or Kunitz! Whoever that player is has a contract worse than our guy, you can be sure of that.

For those two, you take the best pick possible and move on.

 

[plaidchuck]

By all means, trade sutter. Fleury too I guess if you get a good deal. I guarantee.his goofy ass has no intention to go to Edmonton though, no matter who they draft.

 

[joeyjake5]

What's up with the pens 2 top prospects DP and KK.

It seems to me DP hurt his shoulder just flubbing a shot from the blueline on the PP. Doesn't anyone know for sure what his injury is and how it was caused.

KK hasn't dressed for Saturday's and this afternoon's game. Is he hurt or is he benched. Anyone Know?

 

[SprootsMasterFlex]

We can sign Shawn Matthias this summer as a cheaper replacement to Sutter.

 

[cygnus47]

Hell, we could sign Marcel Goc. Goc/Spaling/Sundqvist could more than cover the 3C and 4C spots.

The biggest loss from moving Sutter would be on the PK. He's still our best PKer with Winnik around. He's also our only real threat shorthanded so we would HAVE to find another PKer that can take his minutes.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't want Goc back. Too soff. Matthias I like, though. And he seems more engaged when he plays the center position, so I would suspect Matthias will pick and choose where he signs based on where teams envision him playing.

Signing a Matthias allows you to bring Sundqvist along more slowly as the 4C, or continue to use him as a winger. But it also doesn't completely close the door on Sundqvist as a 3C if he looks ready, since Matthias can slide down.

I like that idea a lot.

 

[drpepper]

Personally, I don't think it would be asking Sid to change his game completely, but I would want him to play in more situations and perhaps 'pick his spots' a little when he's on the ice. I want Sid and Geno on the ice as much as possible. The great ones in history know how to stay out longer than other players, know when to attack and when to preserve, etc.

Of course, if they're not getting blindsided every game and roughed up all the time, this would be a lot easier to implement (which then leads to talk about the archaic enforcer debate, which I won't get into now).




OK, well fair enough then. You're talking about moves made by THIS regime. I'm ASSUMING we have another regime in place. And a whole new way of thinking.

If you want to continue down the current path, then good 'ol JR is probably your best bet. His drafting record isn't good, but he is fairly good at player-for-player trades. So if that's what you want, then OK.

I am never a fan of staying mediocre, so that's why I want to blow this up as quickly as possible.

But if we're keeping this management team, yikes! I shudder to think of the player we'd get back in return for Scuderi or Kunitz! Whoever that player is has a contract worse than our guy, you can be sure of that.

For those two, you take the best pick possible and move on.

I was operating under the assumption that neither Rutherford nor most of the rest of the organization, asst GMs, etc were changing because I don't think that they are.

In my ideal world, at the very least the scouting department would be reorganized with more focus of forwards and Europe, and the development of players would be changed. I don't think that there is currently available a GM that I would be interested in the Pens hiring which makes my more extreme ideal world completely unrealistic (rather than mostly).

I don't think Kunitz is that valueless especially if he continues to play decently in the playoffs. (But then again, I also don't think that Kunitz is finished as a player either and would be completely unsurprised to seem him as a Pen next year and playing better.)

Scuderi, I agree just needs to go.

EDIT:
However in terms of what I'd like to see versus reality

I am not sure a team that tweets this:



is seriously considering trading Sutter versus trying to re-sign him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Also I am continually surprised by people expecting this team to draft and develop talent. What good are first and second round picks when they become Despres (Lovejoy) or Bennett?

That all depends on your opinion of Despres and Bennett. I think they were fine 1st round picks.

I think they have a higher chance of success in exploring trading Sutter, Kunitz, and Scuderi as compared to drafting. However, the emphasis should be on immediate impact & improvement on the roster not gathering draft picks.

EDIT:
As a side note, does anyone know of any analysis of Rutherford's drafting in CAR?

Recouping traded draft picks (ie 2015 1st) and acquiring comparable young wingers (established or NHL-ready caught in numbers game) should be the goal when trading Sutter.

We shouldn't be committing big money to him long-term, we shouldn't let him go for nothing, and he's not what we need at 3C.

 

[DearDiary]

I really like Lap, good work ethic on every shift and is able to agitate without taking penalties. Really seems like a playoff type player.

Downie should take some lessons from him

 

[888 98 twins]

Any idea what Minny would want for Zucker? Love his game, and I think he'd mesh great with Sid. Sutter+ something for Zucker? Would allow Coyle to move over to wing...