Salary Cap: Roster-building thread Part XXXVI | Light up this dumpster fire! Light em up up up!

[Honour Over Glory]

They need to realize their bed is not makable. The era is over thanks to shero and Rutherford. Trade Sid and Geno and rebuild it. But get competent people first.

Trading Geno and Sid isn't the solution to the problem at all and it angers me that people keep coming to this conclusion without really thinking about it.

The poster you quote is right, Shero had from 2006-2014 to absolutely destroy the Penguins future outside of the guys that were picked by Patrick and his boy Staal and a few other solid defense picks here and there.

Rutherford went and cut the fat, added some grit, likely had less of a say in finding a coach than we think and we ended up with Johnston, a guy that looked amazing for the first 2 months and then well, didn't ever again.

But outside of the terrible Despres trade, Rutherford hasn't done a terrible job at all, it's the one trade everyone seems to focus on, that one trade weighs so heavily on him when people grade the job he's done and even when he mentions the trade, he has no real good reason for it at all, it just sounds dumb or even he's confused about it really, no way anyone competent comes up with that.

Its fixable though.

As callous as it sounds, it likely is best to move on from Letang, I feel like injuries are really going to hurt him and his career and I would rather just see him retire if anything rather than see him get moved, then hurt again. I seriously do..

If Letang is paying any attention around the sports world in regards to concussions...He SHOULD be thinking about retiring.

He's had 4 concussions already in his career that I can remember (2011, 2012, 2x this season) and of course the stroke which isn't going to hurt his career going forward but he had 2 concussions close to each other in 2011 and 2012 and again this year, even closer (January & March). That's concerning.

But outside of that...

The Pens can move some of their vets and get some picks, they might not be the highest of picks, but they are picks.

 

[KIRK]

I don't think any GM will do us any favors by giving us an asset, even as small as a 7th and take on the salaries of Kunitz or Scuderi for 2 years.

If I'm a GM in the NHL, I wait for the Penguins to buy out both Kunitz and Scuderi, then I can see them both getting 1 year offers between $1.5M and $2M.

Plus, since the Penguins are eyeing the buyouts, in my opinion it's a done deal that no GM would want to trade for any of them.

Concur.

That said, to buy out Scuderi will mean just over a 1.1M cap hit for the next 4 years.

I don't think anyone will bite, but perhaps you offer to eat up to 1.3M per year for the next two. Failing that, you buy him out.

Either way, it's 2M in extra cap space. Slot one of the young defensemen to replace him, and the net effect is to ADD about 1.2M in cap flexibility.

Kunitz is at 3.85M. Buyout number is about 1.3M a year for the next 4 years. I think for him you can get another GM to bite if you offer to eat some money. Even if it's that 1.3M over two years, Kunitz, you allocate his slot to a fourth liner . . . net cap flexibility is about 1.8M.

Now, here's the part a few may not like. Sundqvist as 3C. Spaling as your vet filler. Trade Sutter, even if it's for futures. Net cap impact is 2.5M in cap flexibility.

Add those three moves . . . 4.5M in total cap flexibility.

xxxx - Sid (8.7) - Horny (4.25)
Perron (4.25) - Geno (9.5) - xxxx
Spaling (2.2) - Sundqvist (.65) - xxxx
xxxx - xxxx - xxxx

Maatta (.925) - Letang (7.25)
Pouliot (.925) - xxxx
xxxx - Lovejoy (1.1)

Fleury (5.75)
Zatkoff (.6)

Total Payroll: 46.1M

Maybe on defense you sign Dumo and Cole for a combined 2.2M and make Lovejoy your #7. Takes the total cap hit to 48.3M.

Then resign Beau for around 1.2M.

Total cap hit now is 49.5M and all you need to complete the roster with about 22M in cap space is 2 top six forwards, 1 defenseman, 3 bottom six forwards, a reserve forward, and two guys to round out the 5-7 on defense.

See, it's not too hard to build a team around Sid and Geno.

It never was.

EDIT: Imagine how easy it would be, if only they had the will, for the Pens to be a player for college free agents (the good ones) or to get aggressive with the KHL guys who will be coming over or to be aggressive bidders as other teams try to unload players to comply with the cap.

 

[billybudd]

So apparently Pens are getting desperate enough for playoff ticket sales that they had to start calling one time ticket buyers in their database.

I guess the fans are starting to speak with their wallets, which is all that really matters in the end.

They had been contacting local tv and radio stations for giveaways, but stopped when they weren't sure if they'd make it. Not sure if they restarted or not.

 

[KIRK]

Ya, as long as the core is here, this team will be a playoff team. People are just being melodramatic. Quite often, it only takes a few changes to alter the makeup of a team in a positive way.

The Pens finally dumped Adams off the fourth line and it has been their best line by a country mile the last two games. Just one long past due change has made a staggering difference.

The Pens are currently dragging around Kunitz and Scuds like two balls and a chain. Put a good young blueliner in Scuds place (Harrington) and a legit top sixer in Kunitz place, suddenly your team looks a lot different.

Swap Sutter, with a bigger, meaner Sundqvist and that completely changes the look of your third line.

Get back a healthy Maatta and push Lovejoy to the bottom pair. That's another huge change.

This team doesn't have to do some full rebuild, they just need to build the team correctly without regards to "experience" and the buddy system.

If you just bought out Kunitz and Scuderi and moved Sutter for futures and slotted Sundqvist in his place, then you'd have 22M in cap space for 2 top six forwards, a L3 RW, a fourth line, a reserve forward, a second pairing defenseman, and a third defensive pairing.

I got Bennett, Cole, Dumo, and a reserve forward at 4.5M.

Add 2.5M for a fourth line with an identity.

15M left over for 2 top six wingers and a second pairing defenseman.

As I said above, it's THAT easy.

 

[billybudd]

Concur.

That said, to buy out Scuderi will mean just over a 1.1M cap hit for the next 4 years.

I don't think anyone will bite, but perhaps you offer to eat up to 1.3M per year for the next two. Failing that, you buy him out.

Either way, it's 2M in extra cap space. Slot one of the young defensemen to replace him, and the net effect is to ADD about 1.2M in cap flexibility.

Kunitz is at 3.85M. Buyout number is about 1.3M a year for the next 4 years. I think for him you can get another GM to bite if you offer to eat some money. Even if it's that 1.3M over two years, Kunitz, you allocate his slot to a fourth liner . . . net cap flexibility is about 1.8M.

Now, here's the part a few may not like. Sundqvist as 3C. Spaling as your vet filler. Trade Sutter, even if it's for futures. Net cap impact is 2.5M in cap flexibility.

Add those three moves . . . 4.5M in total cap flexibility.

xxxx - Sid (8.7) - Horny (4.25)
Perron (4.25) - Geno (9.5) - xxxx
Spaling (2.2) - Sundqvist (.65) - xxxx
xxxx - xxxx - xxxx

Maatta (.925) - Letang (7.25)
Pouliot (.925) - xxxx
xxxx - Lovejoy (1.1)

Fleury (5.75)
Zatkoff (.6)

Total Payroll: 46.1M

Maybe on defense you sign Dumo and Cole for a combined 2.2M and make Lovejoy your #7. Takes the total cap hit to 48.3M.

Then resign Beau for around 1.2M.

Total cap hit now is 49.5M and all you need to complete the roster with about 21M in cap space is 2 top six forwards, 1 defenseman, 3 bottom six forwards, and a reserve forward.

See, it's not too hard to build a team around Sid and Geno.

It never was.

EDIT: Imagine how easy it would be, if only they had the will, for the Pens to be a player for college free agents (the good ones) or to get aggressive with the KHL guys who will be coming over or to be aggressive bidders as other teams try to unload players to comply with the cap.

Buying out scuds and, if necessary Kunitz, will help. Addition by subtraction. Don't even need to refill that cap space. Who knows.

Maybe some team gets in cap trouble and has to dump something we need. Boychuck, Leddy etc.

 

[billybudd]

If you just bought out Kunitz and Scuderi and moved Sutter for futures and slotted Sundqvist in his place, then you'd have 22M in cap space for 2 top six forwards, a L3 RW, a fourth line, a reserve forward, a second pairing defenseman, and a third defensive pairing.

I got Bennett, Cole, Dumo, and a reserve forward at 4.5M.

Add 2.5M for a fourth line with an identity.

15M left over for 2 top six wingers and a second pairing defenseman.

As I said above, it's THAT easy.

Problem is KIRK that there aren't any good UFAs to spend that on. There's no Andrew Shaw in free agency. No Gallagher. No Lowry.

 

[KIRK]

Buying out scuds and, if necessary Kunitz, will help. Addition by subtraction. Don't even need to refill that cap space. Who knows.

Maybe some team gets in cap trouble and has to dump something we need. Boychuck, Leddy etc.

Sutter goes too for futures. Slot Sundqvist in his spot. Keep Spaling as a safety net there.

22M in cap space for . . .

2 top six wingers
L3 RW
Fourth line
Reserve forward
2nd pairing defenseman
2 defensemen to fill out 5-7 with Lovejoy

Now, let's go with what we know . . .

Those two defensemen should be Cole and Dumo. I suspect the combined cap hit will be about 2.5M tops.

A reserve forward and Farnham will run you another 1.3M.

Say you resign Bennett for 1.2M.

5M total, leaves you with 17M for two top six forwards, one second pairing defenseman, and 2 bottom six forwards.

So much flexibility there . . . a team looking to move salary, KHL guys, college free agents like Hayes on whom we never can be serious bidders.

Whatever we do, all I want is for Sid and Geno to be the priority. It's about time, and all it takes to make it happen would be 3 simple and overdue moves.

 

[KIRK]

Problem is KIRK that there aren't any good UFAs to spend that on. There's no Andrew Shaw in free agency. No Gallagher. No Lowry.

Chicago will be open for business.

Some guys coming from the KHL.

Maybe bank the money for the deadline.

You're right . . . in the end there may NOT be a better option. I still say you create the cap space . . . Kunitz and Scuderi would be addition by subtraction, and I'll bet you if he got a legit shot, Sundqvist by the end of next year would be a much better playoff 3C 5 on 5 than Sutter is.

 

[billybudd]

Chicago will be open for business.

Some guys coming from the KHL.

Maybe bank the money for the deadline.

You're right . . . in the end there may NOT be a better option. I still say you create the cap space . . . Kunitz and Scuderi would be addition by subtraction, and I'll bet you if he got a legit shot, Sundqvist by the end of next year would be a much better playoff 3C 5 on 5 than Sutter is.

Sure. Even if you sit on it for a year, Scuds and 14s cap space does more good for us than them

And yeah. I'm not willing to commit what Sutter will make to keep him. So I'll trade him for a pick. Even if it makes us worse, which it will.

 

[KIRK]

Sure. Even if you sit on it for a year, Scuds and 14s cap space does more good for us than them

And yeah. I'm not willing to commit what Sutter will make to keep him. So I'll trade him for a pick. Even if it makes us worse, which it will.

Short term? Yes.

By the end of next regular season? I'm not so sure Sundqvist won't be a better 3C than Sutter before the end of next regular season.

And, again, it's not Sutter versus Sundqvist. It's Sutter versus Sundqvist + how the added cap flexibility allows you to improve in other areas.

 

[roquay]

Concur.

That said, to buy out Scuderi will mean just over a 1.1M cap hit for the next 4 years.

I don't think anyone will bite, but perhaps you offer to eat up to 1.3M per year for the next two. Failing that, you buy him out.

Either way, it's 2M in extra cap space. Slot one of the young defensemen to replace him, and the net effect is to ADD about 1.2M in cap flexibility.

Kunitz is at 3.85M. Buyout number is about 1.3M a year for the next 4 years. I think for him you can get another GM to bite if you offer to eat some money. Even if it's that 1.3M over two years, Kunitz, you allocate his slot to a fourth liner . . . net cap flexibility is about 1.8M.

Now, here's the part a few may not like. Sundqvist as 3C. Spaling as your vet filler. Trade Sutter, even if it's for futures. Net cap impact is 2.5M in cap flexibility.

Add those three moves . . . 4.5M in total cap flexibility.

xxxx - Sid (8.7) - Horny (4.25)
Perron (4.25) - Geno (9.5) - xxxx
Spaling (2.2) - Sundqvist (.65) - xxxx
xxxx - xxxx - xxxx

Maatta (.925) - Letang (7.25)
Pouliot (.925) - xxxx
xxxx - Lovejoy (1.1)

Fleury (5.75)
Zatkoff (.6)

Total Payroll: 46.1M

Maybe on defense you sign Dumo and Cole for a combined 2.2M and make Lovejoy your #7. Takes the total cap hit to 48.3M.

Then resign Beau for around 1.2M.

Total cap hit now is 49.5M and all you need to complete the roster with about 22M in cap space is 2 top six forwards, 1 defenseman, 3 bottom six forwards, a reserve forward, and two guys to round out the 5-7 on defense.

See, it's not too hard to build a team around Sid and Geno.

It never was.

EDIT: Imagine how easy it would be, if only they had the will, for the Pens to be a player for college free agents (the good ones) or to get aggressive with the KHL guys who will be coming over or to be aggressive bidders as other teams try to unload players to comply with the cap.

Because Scuderi is over 26 the buyout is 2.25 for 4 years so its not really worth it. Surely someone would take him at 50%?

That pass to Lovejoy in Game 1 was typical Scuderi. No pressure, 10 ft pass and he misses the stick by a couple of feet . Maybe buyout is the only option or keep him a don't play him.....yeah right like thats going to happen

 

[wej20]

If we retain a little we might be able to get rid of Scuderi.

 

[Ugene Magic]

If we retain a little we might be able to get rid of Scuderi.

Agreed, but...

Retaining half is better than buying him out. 2 years --->4 years.

 

[wej20]

Agreed, but...

Retaining half is better than buying him out. 2 years --->4 years.

Also working in our favour is his salary is lower than his caphit.

Maybe something like Spaling + Scuderi (30% retained) for Korpikoski.

Caphits would be 2.2 + 2.3632 =4.5632 to Arizona, 2.5 + 1.3886 =3.8868 to the Pens

Salarywise would be 2.2 + 3.85 = 6.05 to Arizona, 5.7 + 1.65=7.35 to the Pens.

Or even better

Spaling + Scuderi (25% retained) for Korpikoski

Caphits: 2.2 + 2.53125 = 4.73125 to Arizona, 2.5 + 0.843375 = 3.34375 to the Pens

Salary: 2.2 + 2.25 + 1.875 = 6.325, 5.7 + 0.75 + 0.625 = 7.075 to the Pens

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not sure it is a good thing. You know what's gonna happen? Probably a really stupid statement move like a trade of Geno or Tanger. They'll try to make a big statement to bring the fans back on board and because it's the Pens and we're always mismanaged they'll make a really bad move that somehow makes the situation even worse.

That is, afterall, what they did this year. The Pens are demonstrably worse in every facet except maybe Fleury and Letang's play.

Apparently Burkle and Lemieux believe in their core. Crosby, Malkin, MAF, Letang. Kovacevic was insistent he talked to those two and they won't trade those guys, unless one of them asks out. That would be my only concern, especially Crosby. The pressure to win is greatest on him and he may have had enough of this monkey org ****ing with his legacy.

They had been contacting local tv and radio stations for giveaways, but stopped when they weren't sure if they'd make it. Not sure if they restarted or not.

They had trouble last season selling playoff tickets as well. Maybe the avg fan isn't buying into the propaganda as much as we think.

If you just bought out Kunitz and Scuderi and moved Sutter for futures and slotted Sundqvist in his place, then you'd have 22M in cap space for 2 top six forwards, a L3 RW, a fourth line, a reserve forward, a second pairing defenseman, and a third defensive pairing.

I got Bennett, Cole, Dumo, and a reserve forward at 4.5M.

Add 2.5M for a fourth line with an identity.

15M left over for 2 top six wingers and a second pairing defenseman.

As I said above, it's THAT easy.

If they are playing their youth, cap space won't be such a big deal. I still think Scuds can be moved if they retain 1-1.5m.

Move Scuds and a sweetener for a journeyman AHLer or an NHL player with a contract that can be buried. We know the Oilers covet Sutter (hopefully they go blueline this draft). Trade Sutter to the Oilers and send them Scuds as a cap dump.

Oilers would probably bite if JR is worth his salt.

 

[plaidchuck]

The problem is the average fan may have soured on the team but for the wrong reasons. They probably blamed everything on Crosby and malkin and called it a day.

 

[seabs926]

Because Scuderi is over 26 the buyout is 2.25 for 4 years so its not really worth it. Surely someone would take him at 50%?

That pass to Lovejoy in Game 1 was typical Scuderi. No pressure, 10 ft pass and he misses the stick by a couple of feet . Maybe buyout is the only option or keep him a don't play him.....yeah right like thats going to happen

No it's 2/3 of the remaining contract, which gets spread out over 4 years. You don't take the annual cap hit, multiply it by 2/3, double the years and each year gets set equal to the 2/3 result.

I think because his salary varies in the last two years it's not evenly spread out. If I'm remembering capgeek correctly its like 1.1 for the next two years then 0.9 the following two years, or vice versa. It is definitely worth it.

 

[Joejosh999]

And what is the total, coming off the cap when Erhoff/Martin walk? 9 mil?
That should bring back some help on 2nd/3rd pair if needed....

 

[mpp9]

Yeah I'm not worried about the organization being stupid enough to trade Sid or Geno. And I doubt they want to get rid of Letang or Fleury either. They're probably paranoid as hell that this team is headed downhill. What happens then? What happens when Sid and Geno can't carry your sorry *****?

If I'm Sid, I think long and hard about how I want to spend the last of my better years.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Can people please stop with the "JR hasn't done that bad of a job" narrative. He has been awful. I'm not going to argue each move since that isn't the point. Any player, in the right system could hold value. It's about the collective that JR built. So what is the collective?? The Pens are older. The Pens are softer. THE PENS CAN'T SCORE. And most importantly, the Pens have NO identity. They are a mish mash of misplaced parts and you know what, that's exactly what they look like.

Instead of changing the Penguins "win now mentality", JR doubled down. WE have almost no picks in a supposed stocked draft. Out of 4 young D that were ready to play in the NHL, only Pouliot saw time with the big club and he traded away the other for a scrub. He could have traded Martin, Kunitz and probably last offseason for something of value, especially if he packaged players together. Now Martin is gone via FA and Kunitz's value is almost non existent.

How is this team better for the future since JR took over??

Is our future hopeless?? IF the current management team stays together the answer is yes. If the Pens clean house in the Front Office and transitions to a new management team, then things can change for the better almost immediately.

Do any of you see ownership gutting their front office???

David Morehouse- HE's the lynching pin for me as to when real change has been made with the organization. Until then, I'm out.

 

[Crosberry87]

The problem is the average fan may have soured on the team but for the wrong reasons. They probably blamed everything on Crosby and malkin and called it a day.

Just like Ron Cook and Andrew Filliponni

 

[Crosberry87]

Can people please stop with the "JR hasn't done that bad of a job" narrative. He has been awful. I'm not going to argue each move since that isn't the point. Any player, in the right system could hold value. It's about the collective that JR built. So what is the collective?? The Pens are older. The Pens are softer. THE PENS CAN'T SCORE. And most importantly, the Pens have NO identity. They are a mish mash of misplaced parts and you know what, that's exactly what they look like.

Instead of changing the Penguins "win now mentality", JR doubled down. WE have almost no picks in a supposed stocked draft. Out of 4 young D that were ready to play in the NHL, only Pouliot saw time with the big club and he traded away the other for a scrub. He could have traded Martin, Kunitz and probably last offseason for something of value, especially if he packaged players together. Now Martin is gone via FA and Kunitz's value is almost non existent.

How is this team better for the future since JR took over??

Is our future hopeless?? IF the current management team stays together the answer is yes. If the Pens clean house in the Front Office and transitions to a new management team, then things can change for the better almost immediately.

Do any of you see ownership gutting their front office???

David Morehouse- HE's the lynching pin for me as to when real change has been made with the organization. Until then, I'm out.

I agree 100%. Shero dug this grave and JR piled the dirt on top rather quickly. Both are equally terrible. But I have no faith in Mario/Burkle to fix this. None.

 

[joeyjake5]

I hate to say this but the most important decision (medical) is Letang. Can he play. With him this year the pens barely made the playoffs. Without him, next year the pens will be a lottery team. The pens will not be able to replace him adequately even with the cap relief. Just look at how horrendous the D was against the rags w/o him. Yes, Maata will help, but he is no Letang. DP is at least 2 years away and maybe he will never live up to being the # 8 pick in the draft.

IMO, without Letang, the Pens are a lottery team next year.

 

[chethejet]

Pens have had some awful luck with Letang and Maatta and Dupuis. That made things pretty dicey this year. Now the question is can the Pens do what they need to do and dump high cost contracts through trade or buyouts. Yes that is easy in a sense. The next issue is an organizational change. Tell the GM the Pens need to get younger, faster and bigger. The priority is to quit trying to win a cup by making trades and or decisions that go nowhere. The last step is to actually hire a GM and coach who grasp that the future is draft and development and not fooling themselves that Sid and Geno are not declining assets. They are and only a change from keeping the older car running, to considering a new car is what is needed.

 

[joeyjake5]

Because Scuderi is over 26 the buyout is 2.25 for 4 years so its not really worth it. Surely someone would take him at 50%?

That pass to Lovejoy in Game 1 was typical Scuderi. No pressure, 10 ft pass and he misses the stick by a couple of feet . Maybe buyout is the only option or keep him a don't play him.....yeah right like thats going to happen

Wrong, since his remaining cap hit is about 6.6MM, how can you buy him out with a cap hit of 9MM as you say. Buy outs provide cap relief and not pain according to your math. If bought out in JUNE , Scuds would be dead money at around 1.1MM for four years. And again, what team would want this over the hill D. Oh, I guess some thought he played great against the Rags.