Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

[Pavel Buchnevich]

PB- You run the notion that AV hates Buch, my point is just that I honestly really do not think that that actually is the case.

Sure we can discuss how AV runs his bench — but I really don’t think AV hates Buch.

No, I say he dislikes all young players who play a skilled game. Look what he did with DeAngelo, Chytil didn't even get two full games. Its all of them.

Whatever you think it is, he is making the team worse right now. Buchnevich getting 9th forward minutes is not appropriate for his contribution, and DeAngelo in the minor leagues is not appropriate either, given he's not a step down from Holden and we have a second PP unit thats struggling, and has 5 left shots.

 

[Ori]

Kreider had 4th line TOI last game.

 

[Avery16]

re: Nieves, the kid has played 1 NHL game this season, after not terribly standing out in camp or seven games of the AHL season. I think we need to give this one a little more time, just saying.

What I do find somewhat amusing, as an old-timer on here, is the amount of time we've always spent fiercely debating marginal talent. All things considered, we've spent more hours debating fourth line forwards, number 6 defensemen and backup goalies than we do anyone else - with the possible exception of coaches...who are all morons after a season or two.

And for all the time spent, years later we would struggle to recall many of them. Why? Because they were exactly what their high end was expected to be - fourth line or marginal NHL talent. Very rarely have we had fourth line prospects that we hang our hats on years later.

Just interesting to me.

He was one of the very last cuts. How is that not standing out?

 

[Hire Sather]

Thanks for the 2 cents. I disagree.

Not everybody is frustrated with me. Just the vocal dozen or so who are adamant about how when I say something outside the box, they are not merely disagreeing, but adamant that I could not possibly be right. Then when facts show otherwise, I have to set the record straight. Some detractors still can't accept that. None of that is appealing to the viewership at large, but it is the lesser of 2 evils. Otherwise, those guys are dictating to the board if they are not forced to remain honest. I trust the rest of the board understands and relates. Better to be pissed off than pissed on.

Stepan trade. Respectfully disagree
We should have moved him years ago.
Keeping him w/his NMC-NTC was the wrong move.
Anything that did not return a bad contract was a winning trade.
We got 2 elcs and cap space for him and Raanta. We do not need to wait to see how much we won that trade by based on how DeAng + LA turn out; we've already won it.

Crowning Boo.
I said on the record, yes it is one game, but it proved my point. He can be complementary pivot to 2 Ws who can drive their own offense. If that applies for Grabner-Buch, it could apply for higher rated Ws also. That's all.

Still claiming victory on Stepan when the draft pick hasn't played in the NHL and the defenseman got sent down because he can't be relied upon to play a full game of top 6 minutes.

I wish one game (against the worst team in the league) proved that Boo can be an effective bottom 6 forward. I wish it was already proven that the Stepan deal was a great trade. We're all Rangers fans, we all want that... we don't have it yet.

How can you say it doesn't matter how the 2 players turn out? So if we gave Stepan away for free we won? Seriously? Just ridiculous.

 

[member 116805]

Boo as a 1st line C with 2 C's on his wings? Sounds like a plan!

 

[Ori]

Not sure if guys are too serious with that suggestion - we will see if B. Nieves continue his great performance. They were playing against Arizona`s 4th line, but I`m happy when a line is productive - so I`m excited if they continue to find chemistry.

 

[Ola]

Not taking away anything from Boo’s game. But he will player better in a N-S game with open ice infront of him than in the games where face more of a collected. Another challenge.

 

[haohmaru]

Ten games in and the "tanking" talk starts. Unreal.

NHL players don't tank. It's not in their own best interests to do so. Same for coaches. They are professionals and this is their career. Do you fail on purpose at your career? It's ridiculous.

NHL teams don't tank. You want to talk about a fire sale (ie... trading players for draft picks/futures) at the deadline and call that "tanking"? It's not.

No NHL teams or players go out and try to lose games on purpose no matter who the players are or who the coaches are.

Tank: (in sports) deliberately lose or fail to finish (a game).

Nobody is "tanking".

 

[Avery16]

With 15% of the season over, Rick Nash has just one point BUT YOU DONT TRADE RICK NASH IN A CONTRACT YEAR

 

[Crease]

Two options in my mind:

1. Focus on this year and acquire Galchenyuk/Shipachyov/both.
2. Focus on next year and trade Nash/Zucc/both.

 

[bernmeister]

...

Still claiming victory on Stepan when the draft pick hasn't played in the NHL ...I wish it was already proven that the Stepan deal was a great trade. ... we don't have it yet. How can you say it doesn't matter how the 2 players turn out? So if we gave Stepan away for free we won? Seriously? Just ridiculous.

Yes, I claim victory which should be obvious.
Stepan was a productive but ordinary player. He was a great value in the beginning, and there was hope he could develop further.
But the truth is, more or less, he plateaued offensively, and no added experience = more hockey IQ was gonna defeat that he would never improve physically. He was slow at sq 1, is slower now, and likely will get dramatically slower, possibly sooner than later, going forward. Plus he was no longer a bargain. Plus since he had a harsh contract negotiation with Slats, he fully controlled all movement possibility with his NMC-NTC about to become earned.

Now, in that light of reality and not some idealized myth, it was paramount he be moved. I would have moved him and Staal and Girardi years ago for a talent upgrade. Unfortunately, other events happened. Gorton recognized a deal he could not be put off any longer. He tried to get the higher price many here wrongly expected, and he was quite frankly lucky to get what he did out of AZ.

So yes, immediate cap relief , a former 1st, and a 7OA for him and Raanta was great since Stepan did not, and now does not, COMMAND that much.

The pick turned out to be Andersson, but it was really a chit to be in on the first six, if any of them fell. That was a valued consideration. Lias is a fine consolation. Obviously, long term if both LA and Chytil bust [unlikely] our profit would be diminished. However, the shedding of a contract that is not cheap for a player overrated, without taking a bad one in return, IS A WIN. Regardless of how you wish to suggest otherwise.

....and the defenseman got sent down because he can't be relied upon to play a full game of top 6 minutes.

How much of it is as you say, and how much of it is AV nonsense, coupled with a need to showcase Holden, and generate minutes to play a surprisingly better Staal, and have mins to Smith can work his fat ass back into shape? The bottom line is as I said. Main reason for returning DeAngelo is that he could in fact be sent down without penalty. Is there any possibility that fact could be a prevailing reason?

I wish one game (against the worst team in the league) proved that Boo can be an effective bottom 6 forward.

My premise stands. He may/may not go higher than 4C or even 3C. What is important is that he can hold the fort on the pivot with 2 Ws who can drive the offense without him doing more than chiping in.

 

[Hire Sather]

You are delusional. You talk about the value we got back but also say it doesn't matter how they turn out

You boast about the value we got back but if it doesn't pan out then we missed an opportunity to get back good pieces.

You talk about Stepan like he had negative value, the trade proved he did not as an NHL club, one that usually operates near the cap floor gave up assets for this contract that you felt was such an anchor.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

How much of it is as you say, and how much of it is AV nonsense, coupled with a need to showcase Holden, and generate minutes to play a surprisingly better Staal, and have mins to Smith can work his fat ass back into shape? The bottom line is as I said. Main reason for returning DeAngelo is that he could in fact be sent down without penalty. Is there any possibility that fact could be a prevailing reason?

Wow. Just keep piling up the excuses. This is ridiculous. DeAngelo was sent down because he is not ready yet. He can better develop in Hartford for a few weeks.

My premise stands. He may/may not go higher than 4C or even 3C. What is important is that he can hold the fort on the pivot with 2 Ws who can drive the offense without him doing more than chiping in.

Does this mean you no longer believe Nieves is not out future 1C?

 

[bernmeister]

You are delusional. You talk about the value we got back but also say it doesn't matter how they turn out

You boast about the value we got back but if it doesn't pan out then we missed an opportunity to get back good pieces.

You talk about Stepan like he had negative value, the trade proved he did not as an NHL club, one that usually operates near the cap floor gave up assets for this contract that you felt was such an anchor.

not shockingly we agree to disagree
If for no other reason than his contract and restrictive clause that was imminent, Step had negative value. That $ and clause reality reduced whatever attraction there may have otherwise have been from other suitors, setting aside if there were not more talented options available.

There was NO "opportunity to get back good pieces" because Stepan currently incl last yr did not and does not command 'good pieces' or let's rephrase that as top $.

There WUZ a time when you could get if not top $, a much better return. But of course, the win now crowd got to Slats and we see what happened. When the wonder twins were wonder-ful, way back when, those 2 and Stepan could have gotten Taylor Hall. People laughed at that then, but clearly, unarguably, that would have been the better move.

Finally, we are EXTREMELY lucky AZ caved and paid as much as they did. Stop misrepresenting that we had all kinds of great offers; we did NOT. If we did, Gordon would have taken it.

I don't mean to be unduly harsh on Stepan, he is what is/was, nothing more, nothing less. But some are adamant about revisionist history, and complain I am 'delusional' for setting the record straight.

 

[bernmeister]

...

Wow. Just keep piling up the excuses. This is ridiculous. DeAngelo was sent down because he is not ready yet. He can better develop in Hartford for a few weeks.

No excuses, just calling out those who deserve it.
Yes, DeA "can better develop in Hartford"; objectively, that is supported by fact he would prob get extensive if not max minutes. However that fact does NOT overcome the reality that NYR like others have to manage rosters, and unlike others DeA can be readily sent down without consequence.
Those 2 factors are independently, mutually exclusive. The Rangers will call DeA back up after they have space, not before.

Does this mean you no longer believe Nieves is not out future 1C?

I have repeated this often and would care not to again, but since you give me no choice, I will.
Nieves has demonstrated as I postulated that he can pivot 2 Ws who can create their own offense without getting in their way.
I am on record as saying he is a match with Kreider, but likely would not be a 1C UNLESS we acquired MacKinnon and bookend him at RW w/CK at LW.

That position, I am maintaining unless/until developments change that. His first game reinforces, and does not detract from it.

 

[eco's bones]

With 15% of the season over, Rick Nash has just one point BUT YOU DONT TRADE RICK NASH IN A CONTRACT YEAR

Even if it's only a 2nd round draft pick coming back you absolutely do trade Rick Nash in his contract year. He'll be a UFA--free to sign with any team once this season concludes and his time with us has been very very underwhelming and there's no reason for us to want him back anyway.

 

[Edge]

He was one of the very last cuts. How is that not standing out?

Not really sure how to answer that. He was outplayed by no less than 5 other rookies? Was sent down when the Rangers had an opening for a center? Didn't really do anything to do distinguish himself?

How much time you got?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I have repeated this often and would care not to again, but since you give me no choice, I will.
Nieves has demonstrated as I postulated that he can pivot 2 Ws who can create their own offense without getting in their way.
I am on record as saying he is a match with Kreider, but likely would not be a 1C UNLESS we acquired MacKinnon and bookend him at RW w/CK at LW.

That position, I am maintaining unless/until developments change that. His first game reinforces, and does not detract from it.

So the only way Nieves will be our 1C is if we acquire MacKinnon (a center) and play him as a RW just so Nieves can center the line....

 

[bernmeister]

So the only way Nieves will be our 1C is if we acquire MacKinnon (a center) and play him as a RW just so Nieves can center the line....

you have a right to laugh, but your dismissive, close minded posture may well lead to your comeuppance. It is NOT just so Boo can center the line.

Consider: If we got MacK [6 years at 6.3 per] for McD, Zuc, LA + future 1st, we add him to JT, Zib, etc. Using Boo at top line pushes depth down the lineup. We do have to wait and see if the principle which was evident and proven last game can be duplicated with other, better Ws, but there is no reason whatsoever to anticipate otherwise. If he can do well w/Grabner and Buch, he should do extremely well with Kreider and MacK. Now again, chemistry in reality does not always match paper, but there is no preliminary reason to expect otherwise.
So if
Kreider - Boo - MacK
we can then Chytil - Miller - Zib [pending other deals]
with natural lefties at LW and righties at RW.

He who laughs last, laughs best.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Consider: If we got MacK [6 years at 6.3 per] for McD, Zuc, LA + future 1st

Holy shit that's terrible

 

[Avery16]

Not really sure how to answer that. He was outplayed by no less than 5 other rookies? Was sent down when the Rangers had an opening for a center? Didn't really do anything to do distinguish himself?

How much time you got?

Name them.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

Name them.

Lettieri, Andersson, Chytil, DeAngelo, Pionk.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Arguing with bernmeister is like arguing with a wall. The guy has some of the most ridiculous and outlandish opinions on this board but has more confidence in them than anyone on this board and then brags when one of his many ideas is a 100% failure.

 

[Avery16]

Lettieri, Andersson, Chytil, DeAngelo, Pionk.

I had no idea Boo was competing for a spot at D. I stand corrected.

 

[Avery16]

Boo lost out to DD, and only because DD lost out to Chytil/Miller. You take Chytil (who wasn’t ready) out of the equation, and DD likely starts as 3C, where he is right now. Boo then is 4C. Lettieri impressed, but he was never competing for 4C. He’ll either come up as a W or as 3C. Same Chytil, same with Andersson.