Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LXXIX - Clever Title

[duhmetreE]

Lol, I know you are just throwing ideas out, but I do find it funny that you went from talking about the value of cap space to this 2 minutes later.

It magnifies my point. Cap space = 1st rounder. That's how valuable it is.

EVEN THEN, people would value the cap space MORE THAN the 1st rounder.

In our case, we would leverage cap space that might not be used, for value; a 1st rounder. but its mostly garbage hypotheticals

 

[MarkMessyay11]

Hypothetically speaking..

If the numbers could work and we wouldn't lose any long-term talent...

Would you take on Lucic for a 1st?

Unless we can flip Lucic with that same 1st to some other team for nothing, no...

We're beyond the stage where we need to accumulate young assets & picks at the cost of a roster spot/cap space. It's time to let the kids we've drafted get experience and consolidate talent as needed.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Because Gorton doesn't have to trade him. If the offered trade doesn't help us, Gorton will just tell Tony to stay home and buy him out in the summer.

There is some question as to whether he can just tell him to "stay home". I don't think it's as easy as that.

 

[Kupo]

Because Gorton doesn't have to trade him. If the offered trade doesn't help us, Gorton will just tell Tony to stay home and buy him out in the summer.

This should be stickied at the top of the page with big bold annoying red letters so people stop asking the same question.

 

[Kupo]

There is some question as to whether he can just tell him to "stay home". I don't think it's as easy as that.

I’m not sure there is.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

There is some question as to whether he can just tell him to "stay home". I don't think it's as easy as that.

Lol what’s Tony gonna do, show up at MSG?

They’ve already told him to stay home, it’s really that easy

 

[Kupo]

 

[Fireonk]

It magnifies my point. Cap space = 1st rounder. That's how valuable it is.

EVEN THEN, people would value the cap space MORE THAN the 1st rounder.

In our case, we would leverage cap space that might not be used, for value; a 1st rounder. but its mostly garbage hypotheticals

On one hand you are discussing a team giving us a first rounder for a guy with the cap hit. And on the other you are discussing a team giving us a first rounder to take a guy with a cap hit. Not quite the same scenario.

Ultimately, ADA won't get traded unless we get something we consider an asset. But it won't be something premium.

And trust me, I value the cap space. Which is why in no way in hell would I take Lucic with a 1st rounder attached.

 

[egelband]

Any trade for Tony probably would require Tony doing an apology or mea culpa and agreeing to do some anger management course or something. I doubt any team is going to just take him with all that baggage without some sort of hedge. And it appears Tony still thinks he’s right...maybe I’m reading this wrong?
So that’s another hurdle and negotiation to do. No wonder it’s taking time.

 

[Tob]

Look at what bad bottom 6 players on big medium long term contracts are doing the Vancouver. They couldn't keep Toffoli who pushed them up against the wall with a corn dog taped to his belt buckle with 8 goals in 5 games. They had to "choose" Virtanen over Toffoli and now Virtanen who was always going to be their own gamble/reclamation hasn't worked out so far as the 12th/13th F. Even with $10M coming off buyouts and performance overages in the next 2 years, we need every cent to keep Buchnevich and our own players and not have to gamble or trade away any assets. We can't retain on Tony by more than $500K or take back any contract. This is not a play to move Tony for a similar cap hit. This is a play to offload as much of the $4.8M as possible now that Fox/KAM/Lindgren/Hajek are ready with Nils and more kids coming and Trouba finally looking decent.

 

[Synergy27]

Lol what’s Tony gonna do, show up at MSG?

They’ve already told him to stay home, it’s really that easy

Yep. Unless Tony had some crazy language written into his contract, all the Rangers are obligated to do is pay him.

 

[egelband]

Look at what bad bottom 6 players on big medium long term contracts are doing the Vancouver. They couldn't keep Toffoli who pushed them up against the wall with a corn dog taped to his belt buckle with 8 goals in 5 games. They had to "choose" Virtanen over Toffoli and now Virtanen who was always going to be their own gamble/reclamation hasn't worked out so far as the 12th/13th F. Even with $10M coming off buyouts and performance overages in the next 2 years, we need every cent to keep Buchnevich and our own players and not have to gamble or trade away any assets. We can't retain on Tony by more than $500K or take back any contract. This is not a play to move Tony for a similar cap hit. This is a play to offload as much of the $4.8M as possible now that Fox/KAM/Lindgren/Hajek are ready with Nils and more kids coming and Trouba finally looking decent.

Yep. It’s very complicated and a lot of things are going to have to fall into place before anything happens. Cap. Compensation. Optics. Gorton probably wants Drury to take over as GM *right now*. That said, if it does happen, it’s probably a late Friday news dump deal.

 

[Barnaby]

he's all but gone.

Calgary should take ADA and run. They wont get anything close to that value as a player. He could slot in as their 3rd pair RD and help the PP immediately... If he becomes that dynamic presence he was in 2019, they will quickly forget Bennett.

I'm guessing the hold up, is the off-setting draft picks? Imagine Gorton could fenagle a 1st. I'd be thrilled with a 2nd.

My guess is:

Rangers: Bennett, Ryan, 2nd

Flames: ADA, 3rd

Rangers have two 3rd's and replace the 2nd from the Staal trade. Maybe slight retention on one side or the other to even out the cap one way or the other. I'd have to look at cap friendly for that. I know Calgary is against the cap and the Rangers aren't far off. Ryan is gone at the end of the year so Rangers essentially get Bennett and the 2nd. Three months ago, I'd have been pissed, but at this point I'll gladly take it.

 

[Barnaby]

Hypothetically speaking..

If the numbers could work and we wouldn't lose any long-term talent...

Would you take on Lucic for a 1st?

No, the Rangers have been mired in dead cap for years now. Eventually, you have to start locking up your long term talent.

 

[TominNC]

Hypothetically speaking..

If the numbers could work and we wouldn't lose any long-term talent...

Would you take on Lucic for a 1st?

No.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Yep. Unless Tony had some crazy language written into his contract, all the Rangers are obligated to do is pay him.

I don't believe that is true. They aren't obligated to play him. They can scratch him. They can put him on the taxi squad or in the AHL. I do not believe they can tell him to "stay home" and I believe there was a player a couple years ago who filed a grievance for something like that. I'm trying to remember who it was.

If they want to terminate his contract for breach they can try and do that.

If they want to suspend him for violation of his contract they can do that (according to the rules of the CBA).

If they want to scratch him or taxi squad him they can do that.

But if I remember the prior grievance correctly, not allowing a player to practice/train at team facilities was an issue. One of the national guys, Bobby Mac, Dreger, Friedman.. even mentioned this w/ regard to TDA. For now it's not an issue because all parties are trying to get a deal done.

But yeah, zero chance the NHLPA will sit by with that. They might lose the fight, but they'd fight, and most likely the Commish would step in for a resolution (loan to Europe or something) until the end of the year when a buyout could happen.

 

[Barnaby]

Lol what’s Tony gonna do, show up at MSG?

They’ve already told him to stay home, it’s really that easy

Yea, I mean as long as his paycheck keeps showing up then I'm not sure ADA has a leg to stand on. What's he going to do? Further aggravate the organization so they have ammo to potentially try to terminate his contract?

He can't force his way into the lineup. They could just as easily send him as far down as possible depending whose still playing these days with CoVid.

 

[LokiDog]

I don't believe that is true. They aren't obligated to play him. They can scratch him. They can put him on the taxi squad or in the AHL. I do not believe they can tell him to "stay home" and I believe there was a player a couple years ago who filed a grievance for something like that. I'm trying to remember who it was.

If they want to terminate his contract for breach they can try and do that.

If they want to suspend him for violation of his contract they can do that (according to the rules of the CBA).

If they want to scratch him or taxi squad him they can do that.

But if I remember the prior grievance correctly, not allowing a player to practice/train at team facilities was an issue. One of the national guys, Bobby Mac, Dreger, Friedman.. even mentioned this w/ regard to TDA. For now it's not an issue because all parties are trying to get a deal done.

But yeah, zero chance the NHLPA will sit by with that. They might lose the fight, but they'd fight, and most likely the Commish would step in for a resolution (loan to Europe or something) until the end of the year when a buyout could happen.

This was my take as well. He has a contract of employment with the team. It hasn’t been terminated. He can be press boxed in definitely or sent to the taxi squad, but I do not believe he can be disallowed to practice and such. Whether that’s with taxi squad, AHL, etc. doesn’t matter, but I don’t think they can just tell him he can’t come. I imagine they want him away from the team and all aspects of the organization at this point and that will drive a little more urgency with trying to move him.

 

[Vitto79]

My guess is:

Rangers: Bennett, Ryan, 2nd

Flames: ADA, 3rd

Rangers have two 3rd's and replace the 2nd from the Staal trade. Maybe slight retention on one side or the other to even out the cap one way or the other. I'd have to look at cap friendly for that. I know Calgary is against the cap and the Rangers aren't far off. Ryan is gone at the end of the year so Rangers essentially get Bennett and the 2nd. Three months ago, I'd have been pissed, but at this point I'll gladly take it.

which is why I think Calgary should take it
Tony was top 5 in D points ... Bennett a former top pick but more if a Grinder now.

I’d still be happy w Bennett given the circumstances now

 

[Synergy27]

I don't believe that is true. They aren't obligated to play him. They can scratch him. They can put him on the taxi squad or in the AHL. I do not believe they can tell him to "stay home" and I believe there was a player a couple years ago who filed a grievance for something like that. I'm trying to remember who it was.

If they want to terminate his contract for breach they can try and do that.

If they want to suspend him for violation of his contract they can do that (according to the rules of the CBA).

If they want to scratch him or taxi squad him they can do that.

But if I remember the prior grievance correctly, not allowing a player to practice/train at team facilities was an issue. One of the national guys, Bobby Mac, Dreger, Friedman.. even mentioned this w/ regard to TDA. For now it's not an issue because all parties are trying to get a deal done.

But yeah, zero chance the NHLPA will sit by with that. They might lose the fight, but they'd fight, and most likely the Commish would step in for a resolution (loan to Europe or something) until the end of the year when a buyout could happen.

This is fair enough. I don’t know the case law.

 

[eco's bones]

Wait, what?

Maybe I'm getting the cart before the horse but I watched the game last night on NHL66 and there was a DeAngelo account going on how the Rangers were sure to get spanked by the Caps. Apparently there is also a suspected twitter account that has also popped up again. FWIW after the DeAngelo NHL 66 account had made a couple appearances a DeUnemployed account popped up too which I thought was cute.

 

[Barnaby]

I don't believe that is true. They aren't obligated to play him. They can scratch him. They can put him on the taxi squad or in the AHL. I do not believe they can tell him to "stay home" and I believe there was a player a couple years ago who filed a grievance for something like that. I'm trying to remember who it was.

If they want to terminate his contract for breach they can try and do that.

If they want to suspend him for violation of his contract they can do that (according to the rules of the CBA).

If they want to scratch him or taxi squad him they can do that.

But if I remember the prior grievance correctly, not allowing a player to practice/train at team facilities was an issue. One of the national guys, Bobby Mac, Dreger, Friedman.. even mentioned this w/ regard to TDA. For now it's not an issue because all parties are trying to get a deal done.

But yeah, zero chance the NHLPA will sit by with that. They might lose the fight, but they'd fight, and most likely the Commish would step in for a resolution (loan to Europe or something) until the end of the year when a buyout could happen.

That may be true, but what's the end game? Go to the minors instead? Go ride the bus and live in a studio apartment where the organization doesn't want you? There's nothing to stop them from scratching you there either. Try to force the organizations hand and where maybe they decide to try and terminate you potentially costing you millions? I would think the smartest play is to lay low, get paid, and have your agent try to work things out with the organization to get you moved. I don't see how ADA improves his situation at all by trying to force his way into practice facilities.

 

[Barnaby]

This was my take as well. He has a contract of employment with the team. It hasn’t been terminated. He can be press boxed in definitely or sent to the taxi squad, but I do not believe he can be disallowed to practice and such. Whether that’s with taxi squad, AHL, etc. doesn’t matter, but I don’t think they can just tell him he can’t come. I imagine they want him away from the team and all aspects of the organization at this point and that will drive a little more urgency with trying to move him.

So you force the Rangers hand and they buy you out.

You just potentially cost yourself millions of dollars that you may never get back.

Contractually you may have a point, but is it worth poking the bear? ADA has nearly 10 million coming to him... want to take 1/3 of that? He'll very possibly find himself on a 1 year 1 million dollar contract playing for the Sens or something.

 

[LokiDog]

So you force the Rangers hand and they buy you out.

You just potentially cost yourself millions of dollars that you may never get back.

Contractually you may have a point, but is it worth poking the bear? ADA has nearly 10 million coming to him... want to take 1/3 of that? He'll very possibly find himself on a 1 year 1 million dollar contract playing for the Sens or something.

You get paid when you get bought out. He’d actually be making money on top of his money. Unless I’m wrong the buyout cap hit is a penalty for buying the player out. They still get their contracted sum.

 

[17futurecap]

Look at what bad bottom 6 players on big medium long term contracts are doing the Vancouver. They couldn't keep Toffoli who pushed them up against the wall with a corn dog taped to his belt buckle with 8 goals in 5 games. They had to "choose" Virtanen over Toffoli and now Virtanen who was always going to be their own gamble/reclamation hasn't worked out so far as the 12th/13th F. Even with $10M coming off buyouts and performance overages in the next 2 years, we need every cent to keep Buchnevich and our own players and not have to gamble or trade away any assets. We can't retain on Tony by more than $500K or take back any contract. This is not a play to move Tony for a similar cap hit. This is a play to offload as much of the $4.8M as possible now that Fox/KAM/Lindgren/Hajek are ready with Nils and more kids coming and Trouba finally looking decent.