Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part IX: Can't take Staal away from AV

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Kakko

Formerly Chytil
Mar 23, 2011
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"Trade players who are underperforming (and get terrible value for them), and keep everyone I like!"

If you're trading everyone (which they won't and shouldn't), be a bit more realistic about it...
 
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Roo Returns

Skjeikspeare No More
Mar 4, 2010
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I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy I just don't see how the Rangers can get multiple first rounders this year.

Nash is not netting a first. His game has been trending downward since that neck injury in 14-15. He's on pace now for like 14 goals. The best time to trade him was after 14-15. He also has that reputation whether we like it or not for not showing up in the playoffs. And he just doesn't hold onto the puck or drive to the net like he used to. His shot also has no zip anymore. It's two concussions (Lucic and Stuart) later and a neck/knee injury later as well. They'll be lucky to get a second rounder and a grinder prospect if they drive up the price. Remember what Columbus got for Gaborik only like a year after the Rangers traded him? They'll get less for Nash.

I have no doubts Rick Nash will still be playing in this league in 3-4 years but in a very reduced role. You know who was in his scoring range last year? Nick Bonino, TJ Brodie, Reily Smith, Dustin Brown, Anthony Mantha.

Grabner is not netting much especially if he's not scoring. He looks more like 14-15 and 15-16 Grabner who didn't even crack 20 points either year. Maybe a 3rd if they're lucky.

The guys with value as mentioned are Hayes, Miller, Kreider. That's where the tough decisions come in. That's why I'd love to do like a Hayes/Athansiou swap with other pieces coming and going (take Franzen's contract to get the deal done?).

Deharnais has no value, maybe a 5th or 6th. Same with Holden. Carey should be in the A, and Cracknell may not even make it to November 1st here.

Vesey will get a bridge deal and won't be getting paid much, Buch still has one more year left on an ELC and if he hits 40 points this year, brilliant. Skjei isn't going anywhere and getting a bridge deal. No reason to move Fast he's an affordable plumber. I'd laugh my you know what off if he ends up being the Wedge Antilles of the Rangers during this transition (hope y'all get the Star Wars reference), kind of like his countryman Jan Erixon was over 30 years ago (he started in 83-84 survived the 80s shenanigans and made it all the way to the Messier teams).

Have to remember as well a lot of the guys on this team who came into the league or played primarily with Torts and were also part of the beginning of AVs run have played a lot of hockey and each year is basically dog years. Guys like Cally/Girardi/Staal probably won't be in the league in three years. Prust is no longer an NHLer. And even Hagelin and Stepan are almost 30 and already showing signs of wear and tear.

A lot of this rebuild is going to be a slow and patient process done internally.
 

Machinehead

GoAwayTrouba
Jan 21, 2011
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Agreed. How many partners has McDonagh had so far? 4, 5? We thought being freed from Girardi would be the end of his problems. They need some stability on the back end and sticking with the pairs for more than one game would help.

Six, actually :shakehead
 

Roo Returns

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Mar 4, 2010
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D partners are always tough to predict. Guys who should mess sometimes don't while guys who have similar games sometimes do. McDs' first partner was Sauer and they were great together. Him and Girardi was out of necessity and it turned into a seven year partnership.
 

PlamsUnlimited

Big Church Bells
May 14, 2010
27,459
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New York
And I wonder how much of this is Ruff's call as opposed to AVs?
I am there with you. I try to make it clear that I am not loading all my eggs into one basket with who's messing around with what and why it isn't working. I did not want Ruff anywhere near this team and I made that clear in the offseason because the same garbage that was happening in Buffalo and Dallas is now happening here. However at the same time the defense was still suck without Ruff. I don't know who's doing what exactly but either way it is clearly not yielding success.
 

GoAwayPanarin

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We've had a ton of turnover on D in the last 8 months, trying to find pairings that work is something that should have been sorted out in the pre season, but we're seeing that happen now because, AV.

If the question is who is forcing Holden and Staal into the top 4, that answer should be pretty clear.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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Crazy idea: go back to McDonagh-Shattenkirk and Skjei-Smith like we ****ing planned, and give it a real look - give it ten ****ing games. Then let's see where we're at, instead of abandoning the entire off-season plan in game 2 because we had one bad game in Toronto, and trying to make determinations based on -not to mention trying to win with- D pairs that are changing literally shift to shift.

I think you have a few things mixed up here. That might've been your plan, that might've been Gorton's plan, but that would seem to not be AV's plan. AV doesn't trust Shattenkirk defensively, as evidence by what Brooks has written and as evidence by the defense we've seen him play. He will always give McDonagh the toughest defensive minutes, so whoever plays with McDonagh is going to have to be someone he trusts to also play those minutes. Seems a logical concept to me. There's a lot to criticize him for, but can you really fault him for not having trust in a player who no NHL coach has ever trusted for big defensive minutes?
 

Avery16

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Jun 28, 2015
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I think you have a few things mixed up here. That might've been your plan, that might've been Gorton's plan, but that would seem to not be AV's plan. AV doesn't trust Shattenkirk defensively, as evidence by what Brooks has written and as evidence by the defense we've seen him play. He will always give McDonagh the toughest defensive minutes, so whoever plays with McDonagh is going to have to be someone he trusts to also play those minutes. Seems a logical concept to me. There's a lot to criticize him for, but can you really fault him for not having trust in a player who no NHL coach has ever trusted for big defensive minutes?
Its not that AV doesn't trust Shattenkirk defensively, and that's not what Brooks said. Shattenkirk is second overall in team blocked shots, and behind Skjei and Holden in D hits. Brooks said that AVs need to play McD in most defensive draws and intention to play Shattenkirk on most offensive draws was leading to an undesirable ATOI for that pairing. This makes sense. That's why he split them up. Maybe if Smith was more reliable defensively, Skjei/Smith could be trusted with the defensive draws and McD could be freed up to join Shattenkirk for the offensive draws.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
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Its not that AV doesn't trust Shattenkirk defensively, and that's not what Brooks said. Shattenkirk is second overall in team blocked shots, and behind Skjei and Holden in D hits. Brooks said that AVs need to play McD in most defensive draws and intention to play Shattenkirk on most offensive draws was leading to an undesirable ATOI for that pairing. This makes sense. That's why he split them up. Maybe if Smith was more reliable defensively, Skjei/Smith could be trusted with the defensive draws and McD could be freed up to join Shattenkirk for the offensive draws.

Its both. Shattenkirk and McDonagh should be playing opposite minutes, I agree about that. But also, even if Shattenkirk wasn't one of the NHL's best offensive defensemen, I don't think he'd have the defensive game that AV trusts to put on the top pair. Its not even about being good defensively, look at who AV's putting out there. AV wants someone on that D pair who he has some trust going against the other team's top line.
 

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I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around why several of the people suggesting a firesale wants to trade 50% of our roster, but agree to keep McD..? Please explain.
 

GoAwayPanarin

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I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around why several of the people suggesting a firesale wants to trade 50% of our roster, but agree to keep McD..? Please explain.

Because if done correctly, it won't take too long to turn around the team and finding a #1D is incredibly hard?
 

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
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This may sound f***ing ludicrous, but ya know who looked really f***ing good next to McDonagh in a small sample size? Neal Pionk.

I’m not saying this will happen soon, but wew lad if we signed our own Troy Stecher for cheap, that’s a haul.
 
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Machinehead

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Jan 21, 2011
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I think you have a few things mixed up here. That might've been your plan, that might've been Gorton's plan, but that would seem to not be AV's plan. AV doesn't trust Shattenkirk defensively, as evidence by what Brooks has written and as evidence by the defense we've seen him play. He will always give McDonagh the toughest defensive minutes, so whoever plays with McDonagh is going to have to be someone he trusts to also play those minutes. Seems a logical concept to me. There's a lot to criticize him for, but can you really fault him for not having trust in a player who no NHL coach has ever trusted for big defensive minutes?

You have a point that Shattenkirk has has a sheltered career, but maybe you're outsmarting yourself a little bit here.

What's asking Shattenkirk to do more: play with McDonagh, or play with Staal or a struggling Skjei?

Quality of teammates is king. Playing with Ryan McDonagh is just about the easiest situation you could put one of our guys in, outside of maybe playing with Kreider.

I'm the one trying to put Shattenkirk back in a situation that was tailored for him to succeed in. AV is the one asking him to be the defense-first player on a pair.
 

Avery16

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Lindberg with a goal and went 4-0 in the dot tonight in Vegas' win over Boston. What a night for Subban.
 

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So you would pay McD do 7+ million dollars per for the next 7 years + as it stands right now?
 

Oscar Lindberg

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Dec 14, 2015
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This may sound ****ing ludicrous, but ya know who looked really ****ing good next to McDonagh in a small sample size? Neal Pionk.

I’m not saying this will happen soon, but wew lad if we signed our own Troy Stecher for cheap, that’s a haul.
Neal reminds me of Stecher very much

Interested to see if he gets a shot with the Rangers at some point this season
 

member 116805

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No question.

We've been waiting how many years for a franchise center? We should know better than to let a franchise defenseman walk.

Sure, but while selling the team off? That seems a bit on the wild side to me.
 
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