Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XXI| (Fun Title Here)| Kunitz Proposal Here

[AjaxTelamon]

Did you just call Paul Martin over the hill and complain about him playing in the top 4 when he was in Pittsburgh?

No, Martin was great, but he wasn't exactly a dynamic transition/offensive player. He was at his best paired with Letang, not covering for Orpik. And having Scuds and Orpik on the roster was redundant and a waste of money.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bortuzzo played 54 games in 2014 despite at least two stretches where he was out with concussions. He was a regular (and was, incidentally, in for Orpik for most of the playoffs, not that that mattered).

Leaving Despres. That is not "a ton of d talent but let them rot on the vine in favour of crappy old vets." It's one #4 D being underutilized for 4 months, which is hardly the crime of the century.

Look at the opening night projection for '13-'14:

http://hockeytracker.net/wordpress/2013/09/penguins-preview-defense/

Bort and Despres weren't playing because they had spots when we were healthy, they were playing because our d was decimated by injury.

A lot of Shero's 1st round draft picks were highly, highly questionable, but the idea that "good young players didn't get chances" is largely a myth. Reality is most of the players identified as "good young players stuck behind crappy vets" weren't any good.

Check out the '13-'14 roster and tell me we wouldn't have been better moving out dead weight Orpik and Scuds, using Bort and Despres right off the bat in their place, and spending that money on forwards. Keep in mind that we had both Glass and Adams on that team.

"Most" of the young players don't need to be stuck behind vets for the BPA execution to get buggered up. If you're spending 7 million dollars on a couple vet defensemen when you could be spending 2 million on a couple young defensemen of the same calibre, then you're not leveraging the strength you acquired with your draft philosophy.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Lebrun says the stars are most likely shopping Oduya. Not sure which side he plays but he might be a decent pick

Did some reading and I Guess Stars fans haven't been overly impressed with his play this year so maybe not.

Oduya is currently hurt. He plays the left side and is strictly a defensive defenseman. He wouldn't be a bad acquisition as he is a UFA at season's end. I wouldn't mind signing him to a one-year deal (maybe even 2 years) on July 1 if we need to fill out our blueline post-expansion draft.

Maatta/Dumoulin-Letang
Pouliot-Cole
Oduya-Schultz

That could enable us to deal a D for a LW.

Man, if Sheary actually hits 25 goals that would be pretty amazing/shocking. His S% is a little high, but not impossibly. How many players even score 25 ES goals in a season? He's gonna have to buy Sid something nice after his next contract if this keeps up.

Sheary is like John Cullen. He would be a guy I would deal the minute his stats could enable us to acquire a better winger to complement Crosby or Malkin.

I just don't trust him to stay in form on a consistent basis.

 

[Corvidae]

I can't believe Maatta only has 1 point in 24 games this year. Schultz picked it up the best few games but where oh where has our offense from defenesemen gone?

 

[Shady Machine]

Oduya is currently hurt. He plays the left side and is strictly a defensive defenseman. He wouldn't be a bad acquisition as he is a UFA at season's end. I wouldn't mind signing him to a one-year deal (maybe even 2 years) on July 1 if we need to fill out our blueline post-expansion draft.

Maatta/Dumoulin-Letang
Pouliot-Cole
Oduya-Schultz

That could enable us to deal a D for a LW.




Sheary is like John Cullen. He would be a guy I would deal the minute his stats could enable us to acquire a better winger to complement Crosby or Malkin.

I just don't trust him to stay in form on a consistent basis.

Can we get Ron Francis for Sheary?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Can we get Ron Francis for Sheary?

We don't really need a GM right now, but I would consider it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I can't believe Maatta only has 1 point in 24 games this year. Schultz picked it up the best few games but where oh where has our offense from defenesemen gone?

The same place HBK went.

 

[billybudd]

Look at the opening night projection for '13-'14:

http://hockeytracker.net/wordpress/2013/09/penguins-preview-defense/

Bort and Despres weren't playing because they had spots when we were healthy, they were playing because our d was decimated by injury.

Why are you judging a season on the opening night instead of the season?

Check out the '13-'14 roster and tell me we wouldn't have been better moving out dead weight Orpik and Scuds, using Bort and Despres right off the bat in their place, and spending that money on forwards. Keep in mind that we had both Glass and Adams on that team.

"Most" of the young players don't need to be stuck behind vets for the BPA execution to get buggered up. If you're spending 7 million dollars on a couple vet defensemen when you could be spending 2 million on a couple young defensemen of the same calibre, then you're not leveraging the strength you acquired with your draft philosophy.

"Not leveraging the strength you acquired with your draft philosophy" is a far cry from claiming there were hordes of talented D being left to rot in a swamp for years on end.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wait, why do the Penguins need to trade for another LWer right now? If anything, they need to weed out some of their LWers. Guentzel, Sheary and Hagelin is a good top-9 LW group, there's really no reason the Pens need to make a trade for another winger.

On that same topic, I'm not seeing where another defenseman would fit in here. The only way the Pens could trade for another defenseman is if they move out either Maatta or Daley in the deal, which I'd rather not do (Maatta has played well recently and Daley fits the system extremely well). The majority of the Penguins D struggles recently comes from Dumoulin and Letang, the bottom pair has been rock solid and Maatta and Daley have rebounded very well recently.

 

[Ogrezilla]

yeah, with Guentzel, Sheary, and Rust playing as well as they have, I don't think we need to go out of our way to add a wing. We need to use the ones we have correctly. Sadly, we are apparently going to sit 2 of our best 12 forwards.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Why are you judging a season on the opening night instead of the season?

Because my focus is on why Shero's BPA philosophy failed, and allocating a big chunk of cap space to underperforming vet defensemen instead of playing young guys who can do the same job (or better) for far less is a big reason why.

In the context of this discussion, I'm not concerned with defensemen eventually "getting chances" due to injury.

"Not leveraging the strength you acquired with your draft philosophy" is a far cry from claiming there were hordes of talented D being left to rot in a swamp for years on end.

I think you're focusing on a very small part of my original post:

The BPA model is the best route, but goalies are both a) a crapshoot and b) of limited trade value, so you have to treat them differently.

The BPA model wasn't what was wrong with Shero's plan. The problem was his failure to execute a key part of the BPA philosophy, which is to leverage your strengths to address your weaknesses.

We drafted a ton of d talent but let them rot on the vine in favour of crappy old vets.

The gist here is that we had cheap young defensemen available because of Shero's draft philosophy, but didn't leverage them properly. Maybe my phrasing in the last sentence is causing the problem here, because obviously not all of the d talent panned out. If it clears things up, I'll try again:

We drafted a ton of d talent but logjammed the ones who developed into NHL-ready talent in favour of crappy old vets. So we were unnecessarily spending cap space on defense that would have been put to better use elsewhere.

 

[Riptide]

Man, if Sheary actually hits 25 goals that would be pretty amazing/shocking. His S% is a little high, but not impossibly. How many players even score 25 ES goals in a season? He's gonna have to buy Sid something nice after his next contract if this keeps up.

In the last 2 seasons (14-15/15-16) there's been 20 players who've scored 25 (or more) ES goals.

Nash, Ovie, Stamkos, Kane, Tarasenko, Perry, Ovie, Tarasenko, Marchand, Patches, Neal, Kucherov, Pavelski, Crosby, Tavares, Seguin, Hoffman, Tavares, Saad, Hudler.

50 more have scored 20+ ES goals in the last 2 years. With a couple exceptions, most of these players are looked at as All Stars (or likely future All Stars), so if Sheary could do anything remotely close to 20/25 ES goals, we're laughing. At that point, you look past every single one of his faults, and keep him around - simply because 20+ ES goals is good... damn good.

 

[Penske]

Wait, why do the Penguins need to trade for another LWer right now? If anything, they need to weed out some of their LWers. Guentzel, Sheary and Hagelin is a good top-9 LW group, there's really no reason the Pens need to make a trade for another winger.

On that same topic, I'm not seeing where another defenseman would fit in here. The only way the Pens could trade for another defenseman is if they move out either Maatta or Daley in the deal, which I'd rather not do (Maatta has played well recently and Daley fits the system extremely well). The majority of the Penguins D struggles recently comes from Dumoulin and Letang, the bottom pair has been rock solid and Maatta and Daley have rebounded very well recently.

Maybe not right now but depends how they construct the team heading into the playoffs. If Kessel is with Malkin then they should target a better winger for Crosby.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Wait, why do the Penguins need to trade for another LWer right now? If anything, they need to weed out some of their LWers. Guentzel, Sheary and Hagelin is a good top-9 LW group, there's really no reason the Pens need to make a trade for another winger.

On that same topic, I'm not seeing where another defenseman would fit in here. The only way the Pens could trade for another defenseman is if they move out either Maatta or Daley in the deal, which I'd rather not do (Maatta has played well recently and Daley fits the system extremely well). The majority of the Penguins D struggles recently comes from Dumoulin and Letang, the bottom pair has been rock solid and Maatta and Daley have rebounded very well recently.

I said the same thing on the first page. I'm not sure what we would want to bring in from a trade. If you ask me, our main issue is lineup decisions (starting Fleury too often and scratching Guentzel over the likes of Kunitz, Wilson and Kunhackl, etc.).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe not right now but depends how they construct the team heading into the playoffs. If Kessel is with Malkin then they should target a better winger for Crosby.

I have absolutely no issues with Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist as the top line. I really don't see why they need to get a winger upgrade for him, Sheary's on pace for something ridiculous like 25 goals and 50 points all at ES this year.

I said the same thing on the first page. I'm not sure what we would want to bring in from a trade. If you ask me, our main issue is lineup decisions (starting Fleury too often and scratching Guentzel over the likes of Kunitz, Wilson and Kunhackl, etc.).

I don't see any holes with this team right now, and I only see potential holes at 3C and 2nd pair D for next year. The Pens need to weed out some of their players before trading for new players.

Speaking of needing to weed out players:



I hope the Pens either give Pouliot a shot here or they trade him somewhere that he can get a shot.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Speaking of needing to weed out players:



I hope the Pens either give Pouliot a shot here or they trade him somewhere that he can get a shot.

The problem here is that the pairing he's trying to slot into is currently performing great. I don't see him suddenly being slotted into the 1st or 2nd pairing.

 

[Penske]

I have absolutely no issues with Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist as the top line. I really don't see why they need to get a winger upgrade for him, Sheary's on pace for something ridiculous like 25 goals and 50 points all at ES this year.

It still is a risk in the playoffs though if they put all their best forwards in the top 6. They will get more attention. If HBK is a line in the playoffs then it's fine.

I really don't know what they are going to do with the forwards because so far their hasn't been a real consistency with the lines. Maybe that's by design (and partially due to injuries).

 

[Empoleon8771]

It still is a risk in the playoffs though if they put all their best forwards in the top 6. They will get more attention. If HBK is a line in the playoffs then it's fine.

I really don't know what they are going to do with the forwards because so far their hasn't been a real consistency with the lines. Maybe that's by design (and partially due to injuries).

There aren't many scenarios where the Penguins will need another forward. Even if they do nothing, they'll still run with SCH, KMR and HBK. If they move Kunitz, I imagine they'll just stick Guentzel into that spot and keep the same lineup. If Sprong comes up and impresses, they could put Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel back together, have Sprong be the 3rd line RWer with Hagelin and Bonino and have Rust be the 4th line LWer. They could also just go with Guentzel-Malkin-Sprong and have HBK be the 3rd line.

The only way I think the Pens would need another forward is if someone gets hurt for the rest of the year. I don't think Hagelin-Bonino-Rust is enough of an issue for the Penguins to have to make a trade.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The problem here is that the pairing he's trying to slot into is currently performing great. I don't see him suddenly being slotted into the 1st or 2nd pairing.

The other problem is that it often doesn't matter in Pittsburgh whether a young player is playing great or not.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The other problem is that it often doesn't matter in Pittsburgh whether a young player is playing great or not.

which to be fair, Pouliot has not done much of. He's never been good enough to be off the bubble. At his best, he was playing fairly well as our #6. Its not like Despres where he was clearly better than multiple guys in the lineup, or Guentzel right now.

 

[mpp9]

I'd keep him at this point. Insurance for the expansion draft. No way he's getting taken over our other eligible players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd keep him at this point. Insurance for the expansion draft. No way he's getting taken over our other eligible players.

Yeah, Pouliot needing waivers almost guarantees that he won't be taken in the expansion draft unless he breaks out this year. At least that's good for us.

 

[KIRK]

I have absolutely no issues with Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist as the top line. I really don't see why they need to get a winger upgrade for him, Sheary's on pace for something ridiculous like 25 goals and 50 points all at ES this year.



I don't see any holes with this team right now, and I only see potential holes at 3C and 2nd pair D for next year. The Pens need to weed out some of their players before trading for new players.

Speaking of needing to weed out players:



I hope the Pens either give Pouliot a shot here or they trade him somewhere that he can get a shot.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Dallas is apparently trying to trade one of Oduya and Hamuis. Any interest in those two?

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Dallas is apparently trying to trade one of Oduya and Hamuis. Any interest in those two?

One of them packaged in a deal for fleury