Salary Cap: Roster-Building Pt. XXI| (Fun Title Here)| Kunitz Proposal Here

[SEALBound]

Schultz is probably pricing himself out of town, and it would be wise to have a younger replacement for Daley. Honka would help us a little this year, but the move would be made more for the future. The lack of right handed d is the bigger concern for the Stars I'll admit, but they might think that a starting goaltender is a bigger need than one of many defenseman, considering it's been their biggest issue for a couple of years now.

Gonna be interesting with Cole, Schultz, Daley, combined with Pouliot in waiting.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I think there is a middle ground there. I think Shero ****ed up by ignoring some top end talent, but we also got lucky a lot of guys panned out. So credit is deserved and a lot of criticizing is deserved. Shero was both very good and sometimes just bad.

Still a top 20 GM, IMO.

A couple issues here:

1. Shero admitted he only really took an active part in the 1st picks, which ended with a very mixed bag, with some big misses, like Esposito, BB, Morrow, and with the jury still out on Pouliot.

2. The organization was disjointed in how they handled the transition to the NHL of their prospects. Many say BB went too soon, and certainly Despres was a mess.

It all went off the rails in the summer of 2013 when instead of taking advantage of his cheap, high ceiling guy in Despres, he buried him below a bunch of over the hill expensive players. Scuds, Orpik, and Martin in the top 4? And the bottom of your rotation included Bort and Engo?

Shero drafted like he understood the direction of the NHL, but his NHL D roster was a dinosaur out of the clutch and grab era, and an overpaid one at that.

 

[SEALBound]

A couple issues here:

1. Shero admitted he only really took an active part in the 1st picks, which ended with a very mixed bag, with some big misses, like Esposito, BB, Morrow, and with the jury still out on Pouliot.

2. The organization was disjointed in how they handled the transition to the NHL of their prospects. Many say BB went too soon, and certainly Despres was a mess.

It all went off the rails in the summer of 2013 when instead of taking advantage of his cheap, high ceiling guy in Despres, he buried him below a bunch of over the hill expensive players. Scuds, Orpik, and Martin in the top 4? And the bottom of your rotation included Bort and Engo?

Shero drafted like he understood the direction of the NHL, but his NHL D roster was a dinosaur out of the clutch and grab era, and an overpaid one at that.

Dan Bylsma. He chained himself to an arrogant 4th line grinder who believed that the role he used to play was the role everyone should play. Fire him in 2012 and take Forsberg over Pouliot and possibly pull of a Palmieri type trade, he would have likely kept his job.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I really don't see how Schultz is pricing himself out of here. If he was playing well enough to price himself out, we'd re-sign him instantly because he'd fill our last top-4 D spot. Schultz in his time here has been a ~30 point defenseman that has been decent to good defensively (I'd give him like a B- on his defense) in a sheltered role. The issue is that we don't know if he can fill a top-4 role here and him on the bottom pair is redundant with Pouliot here.

 

[Riptide]

I really don't see how Schultz is pricing himself out of here. If he was playing well enough to price himself out, we'd re-sign him instantly because he'd fill our last top-4 D spot. Schultz in his time here has been a ~30 point defenseman that has been decent to good defensively (I'd give him like a B- on his defense) in a sheltered role. The issue is that we don't know if he can fill a top-4 role here and him on the bottom pair is redundant with Pouliot here.

We would? How do you know what he wants? How do we know where we'll be cap wise for next season? Too many unknowns to resign Schultz at this time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We would? How do you know what he wants? How do we know where we'll be cap wise for next season? Too many unknowns to resign Schultz at this time.

What are you even trying to prove here? That we don't have a lot of information since we're just nobodies posting on a hockey forum? Thanks Nostradamus, you cracked the case.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

A couple issues here:

1. Shero admitted he only really took an active part in the 1st picks, which ended with a very mixed bag, with some big misses, like Esposito, BB, Morrow, and with the jury still out on Pouliot.

Yeah, although you have to think "BPA" was a top-down philosophy even if he didn't make the picks himself. Scouts aren't always directed to do that AFAIK.

It all went off the rails in the summer of 2013 when instead of taking advantage of his cheap, high ceiling guy in Despres, he buried him below a bunch of over the hill expensive players. Scuds, Orpik, and Martin in the top 4? And the bottom of your rotation included Bort and Engo?

Shero drafted like he understood the direction of the NHL, but his NHL D roster was a dinosaur out of the clutch and grab era, and an overpaid one at that.

I agree with all that except the idea that Shero constructed his NHL roster like a clutch and grab era relic. He put too much emphasis on complementing PMDs with stay-at-homes who had no offense to speak of, but that was the conventional wisdom. The sort of mobility on d we had under JR last year was pretty much unprecedented, which is why it was criticized going into the playoffs.

Shero did have Letang, Martin, and Nisky, so he clearly valued PMDs on the big club. He just didn't know when to cut bait with defensive d who were past their best before date.

 

[Riptide]

What are you even trying to prove here? That we don't have a lot of information since we're just nobodies posting on a hockey forum? Thanks Nostradamus, you cracked the case.

At least I'm asking questions vs making statements with nothing to back it up.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Yeah, although you have to think "BPA" was a top-down philosophy even if he didn't make the picks himself. Scouts aren't always directed to do that AFAIK.

That is fair. As the GM, he has to get some credit for the lower picks that seem to be panning out now. Too late to save his job, but better late than never.

I agree with all that except the idea that Shero constructed his NHL roster like a clutch and grab era relic. He put too much emphasis on complementing PMDs with stay-at-homes who had no offense to speak of, but that was the conventional wisdom. The sort of mobility on d we had under JR last year was pretty much unprecedented, which is why it was criticized going into the playoffs.

Shero did have Letang, Martin, and Nisky, so he clearly valued PMDs on the big club. He just didn't know when to cut bait with defensive d who were past their best before date.

I just fail to see the logic in signing Scuds, then letting Orpik and Nisky both walk at the end of that season for no return. If he'd just offered Niskanen the Scuderi money for an extension, he would have taken it in a heartbeat, and our cap would have been in great shape that season, and thereafter, and we'd have a 2nd pair RHD right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I just fail to see the logic in signing Scuds, then letting Orpik and Nisky both walk at the end of that season for no return. If he'd just offered Niskanen the Scuderi money for an extension, he would have taken it in a heartbeat, and our cap would have been in great shape that season, and thereafter, and we'd have a 2nd pair RHD right now.

Yeah, I agree. Keeping those guys on (especially for the whole year when they had obviously deteriorated) despite having internal replacements was his biggest mistake in executing the BPA draft philosophy.

It was money we could have spent better elsewhere, even if I understood the logic of pairing a previously steady Scuds (who had played well with Doughty) with a volatile Letang to start the year.

As for Nisky, he wasn't exactly a big priority for anyone to re-sign in 2013. He was sort of like Schultz this summer. A nice start to a turnaround, but not really someone you want to throw 3+ mil at for multiple years.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

How about.....


Maatta + Fehr for Max Pacioretty
Then move Kunitz for a depth NHL defender to push pouliot and the next move is to trade Fleury.

Pacioretty, Crosby, Hornqvist
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
Sheary, Guentzel, Rust
Bonino/Kuhnhackl, Cullen, Wilson

I wouldn't mind moving Bones even if Guentzel is sent down.

 

[3074326]

As for Nisky, he wasn't exactly a big priority for anyone to re-sign in 2013. He was sort of like Schultz this summer. A nice start to a turnaround, but not really someone you want to throw 3+ mil at for multiple years.

I could be wrong, but I feel like people knew he was a good player and wanted him to stay, but people just knew he was going to make too much money. He earned it. I really liked Niskanen and would have loved to see him stay. He seems to be doing well in Washington, too.

I feel like he wasn't a priority because it felt impossible to sign him. I would've been totally fine with 3+ mill at the time.

Not that this changes anything.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I could be wrong, but I feel like people knew he was a good player and wanted him to stay, but people just knew he was going to make too much money. He earned it. I really liked Niskanen and would have loved to see him stay. He seems to be doing well in Washington, too.

I feel like he wasn't a priority because it felt impossible to sign him. I would've been totally fine with 3+ mill at the time.

Not that this changes anything.

I think it went

Meh, trade him because someone has to be traded
vokoun goes on ltir so they don't have to trade anyone
Oh, he's doing really well.
He's doing really, really well
**** we can't afford him now
Trade him?

I'm still pissed that they didn't trade one of orpik or niskanen then and the only reason they didn't have was ltir. Two valuable assets walked for nothing and Shero had traded a lot away.

 

[SEALBound]

How about.....


Maatta + Fehr for Max Pacioretty
Then move Kunitz for a depth NHL defender to push pouliot and the next move is to trade Fleury.

Pacioretty, Crosby, Hornqvist
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
Sheary, Guentzel, Rust
Bonino/Kuhnhackl, Cullen, Wilson

I wouldn't mind moving Bones even if Guentzel is sent down.

So you'd get rid of 50% of our centers? Both of which are staples on the PK?

 

[BrookswasHere44]

In what universe does Maatta+Fehr get you patches?

 

[Riptide]

That is fair. As the GM, he has to get some credit for the lower picks that seem to be panning out now. Too late to save his job, but better late than never.



I just fail to see the logic in signing Scuds, then letting Orpik and Nisky both walk at the end of that season for no return. If he'd just offered Niskanen the Scuderi money for an extension, he would have taken it in a heartbeat, and our cap would have been in great shape that season, and thereafter, and we'd have a 2nd pair RHD right now.

Can't speak to Orpik and Nisky, but him signing Scuds was Shero attempting to make Letang happy. I distinctly remember reading an article about unhappy Letang was in 09/10 due to having multiple partners. Shero figured that Scuderi (after his great cup run with LA as Doughty's partner) would solidify Letangs pairing and keep him happy.

This might not be exactly how it went down, but I remember reading something along these lines how Letang was unhappy with multiple partners and how Scuderi was brought in to resolve that.

 

[Riptide]

How about.....


Maatta + Fehr for Max Pacioretty

So... what does our blueline look like?

Dumo - Letang
Cole/Pouliot - Daley
Cole/Pouliot - Schultz

Sorry... until DP plays more, I'm not exactly sold - even if I'm really happy with how Cole is playing (and I am).

 

[Riptide]

I think it went

Meh, trade him because someone has to be traded
vokoun goes on ltir so they don't have to trade anyone
Oh, he's doing really well.
He's doing really, really well
**** we can't afford him now
Trade him?

I'm still pissed that they didn't trade one of orpik or niskanen then and the only reason they didn't have was ltir. Two valuable assets walked for nothing and Shero had traded a lot away.

In Sept/Oct before he starting doing really really well, his agent said he'd resign for 4x4m. Shero turned that down. He went on to have a killer season and ended up getting a 5.75mx7 yr contract.

 

[froods]

I think there is a middle ground there. I think Shero ****ed up by ignoring some top end talent, but we also got lucky a lot of guys panned out. So credit is deserved and a lot of criticizing is deserved. Shero was both very good and sometimes just bad.

Still a top 20 GM, IMO.

I agree with this. I also dont think you can 100% judge a guy based on one situation. Maybe his style/philosophy is good for 90% of teams, but not great for a org with 2 high paid franchise centers. It is certainly a unique situation. I think his tenure in NJ on a complete rebuild will show a lot about him.

 

[Shady Machine]

In Sept/Oct before he starting doing really really well, his agent said he'd resign for 4x4m. Shero turned that down. He went on to have a killer season and ended up getting a 5.75mx7 yr contract.

Yup and at the time, most of us wanted to move Orpik and sign Niskanen. Since we knew the org wouldn't do that, we advocated moving Niskanen to get some value and open up a spot for Despres. Instead, Despres was blocked and we let both D walk for nothing. Just brutal asset management

 

[pistolpete11]

A couple issues here:

1. Shero admitted he only really took an active part in the 1st picks, which ended with a very mixed bag, with some big misses, like Esposito, BB, Morrow, and with the jury still out on Pouliot.

2. The organization was disjointed in how they handled the transition to the NHL of their prospects. Many say BB went too soon, and certainly Despres was a mess.

It all went off the rails in the summer of 2013 when instead of taking advantage of his cheap, high ceiling guy in Despres, he buried him below a bunch of over the hill expensive players. Scuds, Orpik, and Martin in the top 4? And the bottom of your rotation included Bort and Engo?

Shero drafted like he understood the direction of the NHL, but his NHL D roster was a dinosaur out of the clutch and grab era, and an overpaid one at that.

Did you just call Paul Martin over the hill and complain about him playing in the top 4 when he was in Pittsburgh?

 

[Hottubber]

Lebrun says the stars are most likely shopping Oduya. Not sure which side he plays but he might be a decent pick

Did some reading and I Guess Stars fans haven't been overly impressed with his play this year so maybe not.

 

[billybudd]

Sure it does.

Neither Bortuzzo nor Despres were regulars when we were healthy in '13-'14 while expensive driftwood like latter day Orpik and Scuderi were taking up cap space. Are you suggesting that we wouldn't have been a better team had we not started Bort and Despres in their place and allocated that money to quality forwards instead of stopgaps?

Bortuzzo played 54 games in 2014 despite at least two stretches where he was out with concussions. He was a regular (and was, incidentally, in for Orpik for most of the playoffs, not that that mattered).

Leaving Despres. That is not "a ton of d talent but let them rot on the vine in favour of crappy old vets." It's one #4 D being underutilized for 4 months, which is hardly the crime of the century.

Rest of the guys from around that time either were playing (Maatta, Bort), weren't ready (Dumoulin, Pouliot) or would subsequently demonstrate that the idea of putting them on the blueline of a team that fancied itself a contender in 2014 would have been insane (Morrow, Harrington).

A lot of Shero's 1st round draft picks were highly, highly questionable, but the idea that "good young players didn't get chances" is largely a myth. Reality is most of the players identified as "good young players stuck behind crappy vets" weren't any good.

 

[billybudd]

If you ask me, I'm not too sure that another winger is that much of a need for us, after Sheary keeps producing and Guentzel keeps impressing. Our LW on paper, has not been this good for ages. Hagelin just needs to break this slump of his.

Defense is iffy. It isn't consistent. I may be in the minority of wanting to replace Jacques Martin before we make a move though.

Edit: Just realized that Guentzel was scratched for Wilson last night. WTF...

Sheary's game is hideous at times, but he's presently on pace to score somewhere in the vicinity of 25 even strength goals (29 on an 82 game season).

Whoever we could acquire to do better than that wouldn't justify the acquisition price or cap hit relative Sheary, assuming he stays this way, which he sort of has for a little while now, not including a handful of games after Wilson knee'd the Hell out of him.

 

[sf expat71]

Sheary's game is hideous at times, but he's presently on pace to score somewhere in the vicinity of 25 even strength goals (29 on an 82 game season).

Whoever we could acquire to do better than that wouldn't justify the acquisition price or cap hit relative Sheary, assuming he stays this way, which he sort of has for a little while now, not including a handful of games after Wilson knee'd the Hell out of him.

Man, if Sheary actually hits 25 goals that would be pretty amazing/shocking. His S% is a little high, but not impossibly. How many players even score 25 ES goals in a season? He's gonna have to buy Sid something nice after his next contract if this keeps up.