Prospect Info: Robert Hagg [March 2014: AAV is $925k, 3-yr ELC, per Tim P.]

[BillDineen]

There are players that were not great scorers in juniors that became good in the NHL like Versteeg. There are players that didn't fully developed until they were 30 like Knuble. I for one am not going to write off any rookie. I know his first pass isn't great and his good stats (hits, blocks) are those without the puck, but I just can't simply write off a rookie no matter who it is.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There are players that were not great scorers in juniors that became good in the NHL like Versteeg. There are players that didn't fully developed until they were 30 like Knuble. I for one am not going to write off any rookie. I know his first pass isn't great and his good stats (hits, blocks) are those without the puck, but I just can't simply write off a rookie no matter who it is.

I’ve always thought him a 3rd pairing defenseman, but for a 22 y/o rookie getting tough minutes, he’s doing all right. This board would run Hjalmarsson (sp?) out of town.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Oyyy it’s like people don’t want him to have a good game.

He had a solid game. Let’s leave it there.

Dude, what? This may have literally been his worst game of the season.. He was f***ing atrocious.

 

[whitstifier]

He gets so much hate because fans are enamored with Sanheim & Morin; utterly despise the coach; and think Corsi is a rating straight from God even though it says Weise & Read were in the top 6 Flyers last season.
Hägg probably plays too much, but the all-out hatred is out of control.

You just showed that you don't understand CORSI.

Even if you just rely on eye test, you should see that Hagg has been largely below average, except when it comes to pounding bodies around the net. And, frankly, that skill is only useful on the PK. So he's like a 7/8 D PK specialist.

 

[deadhead]

People have short memories, we've had a lot of trash on defense playing that 3rd pair over the decades.
As do most teams.

Last year for example, Streit was vying for the Lehtera "turtle on skates" award, MDZ was in the running for the Matt Carle "defense, I don't play no stinkin' defense" award, Schultz was the leader in the "little train that couldn't" category and so on.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You just showed that you don't understand CORSI.

Even if you just rely on eye test, you should see that Hagg has been largely below average, except when it comes to pounding bodies around the net. And, frankly, that skill is only useful on the PK. So he's like a 7/8 D PK specialist.

I understand Corsi. It’s a simple +/- concept.
It’s not God like some people treat it.
Weise & Read were top 6 Flyers last season according to Corsi.
It’s a flawed stat. And over the course of a season, zone starts have a “quite large” impact.
I think it’s others who don’t understand its flaws.
I read the articles people haughtily bandied about saying Corsi isn’t impacted by zone starts.
They didn’t read the article or didn’t understand it.
The analysis shows zone starts over the short term (even one season) have a significant impact on Corsi.
It’s only after 5 years of aggregate data it evens out.
So if you want to bring your data, at least understand it.

 

[deadhead]

Corsi doesn't take into account quality of shots, so it rewards wild shooters who just throw it on net, and docks defensemen who are good at positioning and force opponents to shoot from bad angles.
So you need to use it in conjunction with other stats, and in the context of the player's role.

That being said, Hagg is always going to be a drag on the offense relative to Provorov and Ghost, or a more experienced player like Gudas.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The Flyers have 2 problems this year: goaltending & a 2nd line center.
Neuvirth hopefully can handle the first issue. The 2C issue is an ogre.

 

[The Rage Kage]

People have short memories, we've had a lot of trash on defense playing that 3rd pair over the decades.
As do most teams.

Last year for example, Streit was vying for the Lehtera "turtle on skates" award, MDZ was in the running for the Matt Carle "defense, I don't play no stinkin' defense" award, Schultz was the leader in the "little train that couldn't" category and so on.

Hes not on the third pair though. They see him as a legit top 4 guy this year.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Even the few pro Hagg posters, like me, admit he’s a 3rd pairing defenseman on a contender.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Even the few pro Hagg posters, like me, admit he’s a 3rd pairing defenseman on a contender.

Hopefully ghost and provy dont read the forums, otherwise they will think they don't have nearly as many fans as hagger.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Hes not on the third pair though. They see him as a legit top 4 guy this year.

Please explain to me how is Filppula any different? Costs 5 times as much, has no hope of actually growing his game and yet isn't being relentlessly dumped on for better part of the season.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Hopefully ghost and provy dont read the forums, otherwise they will think they don't have nearly as many fans as hagger.

Hagger has what, about 3 posters who support him? I think Provy & Ghost get a lot of love, to include my username.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Even the few pro Hagg posters, like me, admit he’s a 3rd pairing defenseman on a contender.

You wont find many who disagree. It seems like we hate Hagg because we point out all his mistakes but we are really doing that to show how hypocritical Hextall and Hakstol are. For every mistake he makes Hagg sees no consequences. You all preach easing the rookies in and that scratches dont effect long term developmemt yet defend Hakstol doing the exact opposite with Hagg. Hagg is in over his head, let Manning (who isnt getting any better) flounder instead and give Hagg actual third pairing time.

Please explain to me how is Filppula any different? Costs 5 times as much, has no hope of actually growing his game and yet isn't being relentlessly dumped on for better part of the season.

He does get dumped on a lot.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I was “contrarian” when I disliked the Filppula trade.

 

[The Rage Kage]

I was “contrarian” when I disliked the Filppula trade.

The trade only looks bad if they resign him.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The trade only looks bad if they resign him.

He’s an old, slow, lousy center TB was desperate to ditch. I’d prefer the 5M cap space.

 

[whitstifier]

An advanced stat primer: Understanding basic hockey metrics

But why is Corsi such a key element of advanced stats? It's because the goal of using stats in hockey is to better predict what will happen next, specifically which teams are likely to outscore their opponents and win more games in the future. The key finding with regards to Corsi was that shot attempt differential — both on the team and player level — does a better job of predicting future goal differential than past goal differential.

Most of Hagg's detractors understand the flaws of CORSI. What is frustrating is that Hagg's supporters refuse to acknowledge its useful applications.

http://hkref.com/tiny/LXNz1​

 

[whitstifier]

Hagg is always going to be a drag on the offense relative to Provorov and Ghost, or a more experienced player like Gudas.

Hagg is one of the worst defensemen in the league at producing offense. Provorov, Gostisbehere and Gudas are all like top 25%.

 

[The Rage Kage]

He’s an old, slow, lousy center TB was desperate to ditch. I’d prefer the 5M cap space.

And do what with it? He'll (hopefully) be gone when the Flyers are looking to contend and it actually becomes reasonable to spend a bit to push them over the top.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

An advanced stat primer: Understanding basic hockey metrics

​

Most of Hagg's detractors understand the flaws of CORSI. What is frustrating is that Hagg's supporters refuse to acknowledge its useful applications.

http://hkref.com/tiny/LXNz1​

Well, he’s among good territory. I think he’s used too much, also. I just don’t abide by the general board thought that he’s horrible & he and Hakstol deserve to step on the same land mine.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Please explain to me how is Filppula any different? Costs 5 times as much, has no hope of actually growing his game and yet isn't being relentlessly dumped on for better part of the season.

You really don’t think Filppula gets as much flack? Maybe it’s more limited to the GDTs and half-jokes about extending him, but I feel like he gets as much vitriol as VdV did.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

And do what with it? He'll (hopefully) be gone when the Flyers are looking to contend and it actually becomes reasonable to spend a bit to push them over the top.

Based on Lehtera, you can probably get a first for taking on 5M.
Or you get more flexibility for adding a star.
Filppula was a terrible dart at making the playoffs.

 

[whitstifier]

Well, he’s among good territory. I think he’s used too much, also. I just don’t abide by the general board thought that he’s horrible & he and Hakstol deserve to step on the same land mine.

Jesus Christ... My point was that Hagg doesn't belong in that territory. Hagg has been extraordinarily lucky to not be on ice for many more GA. Most of the other players have experienced some luck, but they also contribute a whole lot more to play in the offensive and defensive zones.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Wait he’s playing top 4 minutes at 22, has this great plus/minus, will improve, but he’s a 5/6 in the future?

Well, he’s among good territory. I think he’s used too much, also. I just don’t abide by the general board thought that he’s horrible & he and Hakstol deserve to step on the same land mine.

Clueless.