RLR's June Draft Guide

[Kirk- NEHJ]

I don't get the worship of the ISS draft guide on this thread as being far superior to Red Line's. It's a nice publication, I suppose, but it is essentially the same format with a few minor changes.

On the originality scale, ISS doesn't pass muster. They basically took the Red Line formula and copied the most essential portions, while adding extra fluff features to put their own "stamp" on it and make it different. That's fine- immitation is the finest form of flattery and all, and if you find it to be far superior, more power to you. Problem is- they've had a grand total of three draft guides to build their reputation on, so in the end, it will take a few years to better establish how their projections grade out. On the other hand, Red Line has been in existence for a full seven seasons longer and are the ones NHL scouts tend to recognize when you bring up the subject.

I find it interesting that a good percentage of the people who criticize Red Line, have never actually held a real draft guide in their hands, and are merely popping off based on things they hear or think they know based on the USA Today snippets. That's fine and all- everyone has an opinion, but to make it out like the ISS Draft Guide is something completely different and superior in every way to Red Line's is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

Both guides have their share of misses, just as they hit on players. In the end, though- you have to decide what you're willing to pay for. If you're expecting stats lines and bells and whistles, then Red Line is not for you. If you want a little more fluff and an aesthetically pleasing product with similar content, then Green Line, I mean- ISS- is right up your alley. ISS has done a nice job of getting some key media sources to use them as a resource, but in the end- I can tell you that to me, they don't have any kind of profound or substantial edge of any kind when it comes to scouting. Their guys have their opinions, Red Line's guys have theirs.

But, I think it does come down to personal preference. I've been using Red Line as a resource since 1999. They were the original business model that others have copied, but to me, haven't quite measured up. Again- it's a preference. Some are going to love ISS or Young Guns and the services they provide and that's fine. Me? I'm happy with Red Line and the way they break down. I'm admittedly biased because I've gotten to know their staff, but that's all about the credibility.

When I go to the draft, and I watch a Red Line scout talking with no fewer than five NHL scouting directors at various times, *that's* the credibility I'm getting at. Nothing against ISS, but I have yet to see them on the floor or anywhere near the NHL scouts come draft time, and I've been at every one since 2001 save for Ottawa last summer, when I was in Iraq. Take that for what it's worth.

 

[HockeyJim17]

When I go to the draft, and I watch a Red Line scout talking with no fewer than five NHL scouting directors at various times, *that's* the credibility I'm getting at. Nothing against ISS, but I have yet to see them on the floor or anywhere near the NHL scouts come draft time, and I've been at every one since 2001 save for Ottawa last summer, when I was in Iraq. Take that for what it's worth.

I think this is a valid point, I personally have been on the draft floor in the past. I sat right next to the Red Line guys in 2002 and though Kyle sometimes comes off as very cocky about his opinions. He is a very good talent scout and knows and talks to the right people to get the best scouting information. I have never seen anyone from ISS on the floor of the draft in the years I have been there.

OK good story from 2002 you guys will enjoy, like I said previously Kyle is very cocky about his views on a prospect being correct. We were sitting on the floor at the end of the first round and one of the only players still on the board from the top 10 or 15 from the RLR list was Patrick Thoresen well he was going off about it being crazy he wasn't picked yet. End of the 2nd round still no PT he is standing up going I can't believe these guys are turning a blind eye to this guy. End of Day one still no PT, the other Red Line guys and a couple of us sitting around them toward the end of the day one kept asking Kyle "Oh Kyle where was PT taken anyway?" HAHAHA. But as you guys probably know Patrick Thoresen went through the 2002 undrafted and Kyle took a bit of a brow beating for being so cocky. It was good fun!

Just my two cents,
Jim

 

[NYR469]

I don't get the worship of the ISS draft guide on this thread as being far superior to Red Line's. It's a nice publication, I suppose, but it is essentially the same format with a few minor changes.

i agree that they are very similar and i can't really say that one is clearly better than the other. of course they are both right and wrong about different things but overall its pretty even.

 

[NYR469]

I ordered the ISS report and I'm expecting it any day. This is my first year following the draft closely enough to get a guide, so I'll let you know how it suits me when it gets here, for whatever it's worth.

i know that the ISS draft guide is for sale but are you sure its being sent out yet?? i couldn't find a scheduled release date. i know you can order the RLR now but it doesn't ship till june 6th. it just seems odd that ISS would sent out their final draft preview before the memorial cup was over.

 

[Kirk- NEHJ]

I think this is a valid point, I personally have been on the draft floor in the past. I sat right next to the Red Line guys in 2002 and though Kyle sometimes comes off as very cocky about his opinions. He is a very good talent scout and knows and talks to the right people to get the best scouting information. I have never seen anyone from ISS on the floor of the draft in the years I have been there.

OK good story from 2002 you guys will enjoy, like I said previously Kyle is very cocky about his views on a prospect being correct. We were sitting on the floor at the end of the first round and one of the only players still on the board from the top 10 or 15 from the RLR list was Patrick Thoresen well he was going off about it being crazy he wasn't picked yet. End of the 2nd round still no PT he is standing up going I can't believe these guys are turning a blind eye to this guy. End of Day one still no PT, the other Red Line guys and a couple of us sitting around them toward the end of the day one kept asking Kyle "Oh Kyle where was PT taken anyway?" HAHAHA. But as you guys probably know Patrick Thoresen went through the 2002 undrafted and Kyle took a bit of a brow beating for being so cocky. It was good fun!

Just my two cents,
Jim

No arguments there, Jim.

If you were sitting near Red Line in '02, then you were sitting pretty close to me as well.

 

[My friend]

I just ordered the RLR Draft guide, about 10 minutes ago. I called the number, and who answers the phone but Kyle Woodlief himself! I don't know how cocky he is with regards to his opinion of various prospects, (this is my first year ordering it), but he was a very nice guy to talk to.

That kind of personal attention to his customers is appreciated by me.

 

[sarcastro]

i know that the ISS draft guide is for sale but are you sure its being sent out yet?? i couldn't find a scheduled release date. i know you can order the RLR now but it doesn't ship till june 6th. it just seems odd that ISS would sent out their final draft preview before the memorial cup was over.

I guess I didn't think about it. Their website doesn't say anything about a release date so I figured it was out already.

And as for the RLR vs ISS, I went to both websites and looked at their sample guides, and the RLR report was very bare-bones from what I saw. ISS had a lot more info and was generally more appealing. I suppose I'll find out if it was just window-dressing, but from the sample I saw, RLR does not look very good at all.

 

[timlap]

. . .
BTW, Kessel is kinda weird lookin'.

He certainly didn't look the way I expected. I found myself staring at it and wondering, is that really him? But I agree, it's nice to see the pictures and put a face to the name.

 

[sarcastro]

He certainly didn't look the way I expected. I found myself staring at it and wondering, is that really him? But I agree, it's nice to see the pictures and put a face to the name.

I think a lot of it was the fact that his main picture appears to have been taken just after a major acne breakout. Such is life when you're 18.

 

[Kirk- NEHJ]

I guess I didn't think about it. Their website doesn't say anything about a release date so I figured it was out already.

And as for the RLR vs ISS, I went to both websites and looked at their sample guides, and the RLR report was very bare-bones from what I saw. ISS had a lot more info and was generally more appealing. I suppose I'll find out if it was just window-dressing, but from the sample I saw, RLR does not look very good at all.

Don't let someone like me make you second-guess yourself. You made a decision and went with it. $40 is still $40, and that's a lot to pay for information, so you as the consumer have to do what your heart and wallet is going to allow you to do.

That said- while Red Line is not very pleasing to the eye, I've found their guides to be an invaluable resource over the years. Sure, they're wrong at times- who isn't? But some of their profiles are so dead-on accurate, it's scary.

Just ask Flames Draft Watcher, who is a long-time subscriber like me. He'll tell you that some of the profiles over the years are so bang-on (Brad Boyes, Hannu Toivonen, Eric Staal to name a few) that a lot of the fun is going back 3-4 years later and reading what they were saying about the prospects back then. ISS hasn't been at it as long, but they certainly got the emphasis of their guide right- on the players themselves and the details about their games and projections. But, that's Red Line's focus as well.

 

[Kirk- NEHJ]

I just ordered the RLR Draft guide, about 10 minutes ago. I called the number, and who answers the phone but Kyle Woodlief himself! I don't know how cocky his is with regards to his opinion of various prospects, (this is my first year ordering it), but he was a very nice guy to talk to.

That kind of personal attention to his customers is appreciated by me.

Kyle will take care of his customers. But the great thing about him is- when you call him to place an order, or are an active subscriber, he's more than happy to discuss the players with you, if you ask him specific questions. That's the part of his customer service he doesn't get enough credit for. He's a one-man shop as far as the business and production side of thing goes, but unless he's up against a deadline, he'll make the time for a paying customer.

 

[sarcastro]

Don't let someone like me make you second-guess yourself. You made a decision and went with it. $40 is still $40, and that's a lot to pay for information, so you as the consumer have to do what your heart and wallet is going to allow you to do.

That said- while Red Line is not very pleasing to the eye, I've found their guides to be an invaluable resource over the years. Sure, they're wrong at times- who isn't? But some of their profiles are so dead-on accurate, it's scary.

Just ask Flames Draft Watcher, who is a long-time subscriber like me. He'll tell you that some of the profiles over the years are so bang-on (Brad Boyes, Hannu Toivonen, Eric Staal to name a few) that a lot of the fun is going back 3-4 years later and reading what they were saying about the prospects back then. ISS hasn't been at it as long, but they certainly got the emphasis of their guide right- on the players themselves and the details about their games and projections. But, that's Red Line's focus as well.

Oh I'm not second guessing or worrying about wasting the money - I did my homework and I'm confident that I will be happy when the ISS guide gets here.

And beyond being more pleasing to the eye (which it was), the ISS sample guide I saw had a ton of info, and the RLR sample did not come close to measuring up. Check it out for yourself - then you can tell me if that's what the RLR guide really looks like. I'm curious.

And like I said, it's my first year buying a draft guide so it's uncharted waters anyway.

RLR June 2004 draft guide: http://www.redlinereport.com/redlinereport_jun2004DG.html

ISS 2004 draft guide: http://www.internationalscouting.com/pdf/ISSdraftguide-sample.pdf

 

[Kirk- NEHJ]

And like I said, it's my first year buying a draft guide so it's uncharted waters anyway.

RLR June 2004 draft guide: http://www.redlinereport.com/redlinereport_jun2004DG.html

ISS 2004 draft guide: http://www.internationalscouting.com/pdf/ISSdraftguide-sample.pdf

The Red Line guide provides more substantial info.- but yeah- that's the gist of the format. They don't spend much time on the extras and bells + whistles.

EDIT: A couple of random thoughts. The Red Line sneak peek is about 5 of 32 pages of their guide. The ISS look is much more substantial...that's going to skew opinions.

Also- Red Line doesn't put out information electronically, so Kyle can't afford to pretty up his website- there's no real content or demand for it. This may cost him a few inquisitive buyers, but in the end- the feeling is that the Red Line subscribers know what they are getting and come back. They aren't paying for pictures or stats or flow charts- but hard information.

Just something to think about in the future, I suppose.

 

[sarcastro]

The Red Line guide provides more substantial info.- but yeah- that's the gist of the format. They don't spend much time on the extras and bells + whistles.

EDIT: A couple of random thoughts. The Red Line sneak peek is about 5 of 32 pages of their guide. The ISS look is much more substantial...that's going to skew opinions.

Also- Red Line doesn't put out information electronically, so Kyle can't afford to pretty up his website- there's no real content or demand for it. This may cost him a few inquisitive buyers, but in the end- the feeling is that the Red Line subscribers know what they are getting and come back. They aren't paying for pictures or stats or flow charts- but hard information.

Just something to think about in the future, I suppose.

It just seemed like the player bios were much more detailed on the ISS guide - I know they put more in their sample vs the RLR version, but I was looking at the quality of the reports, and it really seemed like the ISS one had more info per player. That, and I liked how they had the scouts' letter grades on each prospect's various abilities, such as skating and speed. If the ISS guide leaves me wanting more I'll definitely look into RLR for next year's draft. We'll see how it turns out.

 

[digitalmonkey*]

I like this blurb from redline...

3. Chris Bourque — Gutless little twerp uses stick very carelessly. Too bad Ray never taught him respect for fellow players.

 

[sarcastro]

Just went back and checked the ISS site, it's not going to be available until June 6. So I guess it's not in the mail just yet.

 

[NYR469]

Just went back and checked the ISS site, it's not going to be available until June 6. So I guess it's not in the mail just yet.

ok...you got me excited when you first said it was out i was gonna order it to get a head start on it instead of getting both ISS and RLR at the same time.

 

[NYR469]

I like this blurb from redline...

3. Chris Bourque — Gutless little twerp uses stick very carelessly. Too bad Ray never taught him respect for fellow players.

that is a perfect example of what i was talking about when i said sometimes it seems like woodlief singles guys out either good or bad. he could have gotten that point across without being so insulting and since no one else said the same thing it comes across as bitter and makes you wonder why he said it. those comments are few and far between but there are a few.

 

[NYR469]

I guess I didn't think about it. Their website doesn't say anything about a release date so I figured it was out already.

And as for the RLR vs ISS, I went to both websites and looked at their sample guides, and the RLR report was very bare-bones from what I saw. ISS had a lot more info and was generally more appealing. I suppose I'll find out if it was just window-dressing, but from the sample I saw, RLR does not look very good at all.

when it comes to the samples, one thing to consider is what part of the preview you are looking at. i haven't looked at the preview for both but both of them have more details about the top 30 prospects then they do about guys 75-100.

so to fairly compare i'd want to look at the top 10 on each one side-by-side...

between the 2...the one thing i like most about RLR is they have a nhl comparison for each guy and for ISS with the top guys they give guys a grade for like skating, toughness and a few others. you might read 3 scouting reports that says a guy 'has good speed' but then the grades show 1 guy is a B, another is a B+ and the 3rd is an A. so it helps you see that while all have good speed the 3rd guy has the best speed of the group.

 

[Meat Wave]

It just seemed like the player bios were much more detailed on the ISS guide - I know they put more in their sample vs the RLR version, but I was looking at the quality of the reports, and it really seemed like the ISS one had more info per player.

I wouldn't give much importance to those samples. Although they are probably representative of what you are going to receive, I'd say ISS looks like it has made its sample more eye-friendly, which might make people more favorable to it... but in terms of prospect information, it looks pretty similar IMO.

I liked how they had the scouts' letter grades on each prospect's various abilities, such as skating and speed. If the ISS guide leaves me wanting more I'll definitely look into RLR for next year's draft. We'll see how it turns out.

You're right about that. If I'm disappointed with RLR, I'll be looking towards giving ISS a try for the '07 draft. Based on what I'm hearing about Red Line's Draft Guide though, I guess I'll have every reason to be satisfied with it. I don't care if it's not flashy-looking and doesn't present stats lines and that kind of stuff I'm already aware about. It all comes down to prospect profiles, mock drafts, and other useful information IMO. If I wanted to see nice colour pictures, I would have bought TNH Preview for $5 instead...

 

[sarcastro]

I wanted to see nice color pictures and couldn't wait until my ISS guide came, so I bought the THN guide.

A very, very quick read, but I think it was a good primer for me so I'm at least a bit familiar with most of the players before I get the big guide in the mail.

 

[Canadian]

I was just wondering for those who have ordered the RLR Draft Guide, can you please clarify the subscription process. Under the order form link, it states the following:

If you would prefer to fill out a subscription order form, just supply us with your FAX number and we'll be happy to FAX one over to you, or you can fill out the form below and we will contact you for payment.

So does this mean, if I fill out the subscription form, they'll give me a phone call to get my credit card information or is this subscription form only for FAX. And one more thing, when does Kyle Woodlief generally send out copies of his Draft Guide?

 

[Buddhaa]

Just out of curiousity - in 2004 how was Karsums ranked in the Draft Guides? Another question to those who already have the draft guides for year 2006 - how is Daugavins ranked? Are thee any other Latvians in the draft guides? There are about 5-6 Latvians whould might be considered for the draft, although I have the feeling that only Daugavins and perhaps one other in the 6-7 round will be drafted. The ones who might be considered are: Kaspars Daugavins (2-4 round), Kaspars Saulietis (was eligible for last year, hopefully comes over to play in CHL), Arturs Kulda (defenceman - has the most chances to be drafted after Daugavins), Arturs Dzelzs (goaltender, plays in one of the US junior teams, did really well during the Latvia's U18 championship where he played and won all games for Latvia thus ensuring a trip to A group (the first time for Latvia)), Andris Dzerins (plays in Sweden, was the leading scorer in U18 Division 1B) and Arturs Ozolins (captain of Latvian U18 team, second leading scorer in the Tournament - he is a bit slow which might rule him out for the Draft...). Anyhow, 1988 is one of the stronger years for Latvia, so I really hope that more than just Daugavins is taken in the Draft.

 

[Kirk- NEHJ]

Just out of curiousity - in 2004 how was Karsums ranked in the Draft Guides? Another question to those who already have the draft guides for year 2006 - how is Daugavins ranked? Are thee any other Latvians in the draft guides? There are about 5-6 Latvians whould might be considered for the draft, although I have the feeling that only Daugavins and perhaps one other in the 6-7 round will be drafted. The ones who might be considered are: Kaspars Daugavins (2-4 round), Kaspars Saulietis (was eligible for last year, hopefully comes over to play in CHL), Arturs Kulda (defenceman - has the most chances to be drafted after Daugavins), Arturs Dzelzs (goaltender, plays in one of the US junior teams, did really well during the Latvia's U18 championship where he played and won all games for Latvia thus ensuring a trip to A group (the first time for Latvia)), Andris Dzerins (plays in Sweden, was the leading scorer in U18 Division 1B) and Arturs Ozolins (captain of Latvian U18 team, second leading scorer in the Tournament - he is a bit slow which might rule him out for the Draft...). Anyhow, 1988 is one of the stronger years for Latvia, so I really hope that more than just Daugavins is taken in the Draft.

Karsums was rated in the early-to-middle of the second round, and they really liked him. Expressed the usual concern about his size, but that was before this latest NHL season and the changes that effected the overall game. My Red Line archives are still packed in storage, so I can't give you much more than that, other than to say that Woodlief and Co. thought very highly of Karsums and I do remember the one-liner on him: "Feisty winger has to jump to punch people in the kneecap." But, the profile on him was pretty positive.

 

[Wild Thing]

that is a perfect example of what i was talking about when i said sometimes it seems like woodlief singles guys out either good or bad. he could have gotten that point across without being so insulting and since no one else said the same thing it comes across as bitter and makes you wonder why he said it. those comments are few and far between but there are a few.

That's something that's always bothered me about Woodlief, too. For Pete's sake, Kyle, these are 17-year old kids you're talking about. Ease up a bit, eh? He doesn't need to get that personal. Snarky little digs like that make me question his professionalism and objectivity.