Injury Report: Rielly to IR

[ShaneFalco]

Polak is "safe" - as evidenced by his penalties, give-aways and icing

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Is there merit in having excellent special teams play? Special teams refers to PK as well as PP. Is there a difference between a goal scored on the PP and a goal saved on the PK? Why is it that PP specialists(Marner for example) are fan faves and an effective PKer(Polak) is detested by so many? Marner's play without the puck is as cringeworthy as Polaks play with it. Polak's miscues are exaggerated while Marner's(see the own goal against Philly) ignored.

because 1) Marner isn't a liability at ES like Polak is, and 2) Marner is better on the PP than Polak is on the PK
sure you can cite one off examples of Marner screwing up, but he's far far better. He's dynamite with the puck, and mediocre without it. Polak is worthless with the puck and awful without it

 

[Randy Randerson]

Is there merit in having excellent special teams play? Special teams refers to PK as well as PP. Is there a difference between a goal scored on the PP and a goal saved on the PK? Why is it that PP specialists(Marner for example) are fan faves and an effective PKer(Polak) is detested by so many? Marner's play without the puck is as cringeworthy as Polaks play with it. Polak's miscues are exaggerated while Marner's(see the own goal against Philly) ignored.

PK is the one argument that I can see for Polak, but we'll see if that's the reason that he's been in when Zaitsev comes back, I have a feeling that we'll see Polak every night still

Marner is in the lineup as much for his stratospheric potential (and corresponding high draft pick investment by the organization) as his actual play. I think calling him a PP specialist is hugely misrepresentative, he's offensive 5v5 as well, but it's fair that his defensive game takes some criticism. He has actually been demoted on multiple occasions as well this year, just not off the team and rightly so because his replacement wouldn't be as good

I'm also not looking to start some kind of a HFLeafs battle, we're all on the same side here. Just think that it's odd that a defensive specialist like Polak who is actually pretty bad defensively (by the metrics available to us) keeps getting in the lineup over younger/cheaper/better options when our coach keeps telling the public that there's jobs available to be stolen

 

[ULF_55]

Defense the other night was okay.

When is the last time they won in regulation?

 

[ACC1224]

there's things that could rationalize it away, like for example Babcock telling the team that veterans will play to shelter the development of younger players or some internal set of evaluation metrics that don't act like the ones that we have publicly (and in that case, only if Babcock is communicating those metrics to the team, if he's not it would still do nothing but confuse them)

by what we have publicly, Polak has been really bad for a really long time - a major drag on an already sub-par set of linemates in mildly defensive 5v5 usage (but not heavily defensive usage) by Fenwick/Corsi - Roman Polak Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

it's hard to frame it in a way that Polak is helpful to the team, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about stunting the development of younger players by telling them that they can win a job if they're better than the alternative, then not giving them a job when they're better than the alternative - generally not a good environment for improved performance when people don't know what the boss wants of them and tends to poison the well when they think they're doing well and not getting the rewards. And yes, I'm speculating that Babcock isn't communicating the reasons that Polak remains as a permanent fixture to the kids, but the way it looks from the outside is that he's beating the meritocracy drum publicly and not practicing what he's preaching

Perhaps you and the Team have a different way of judging merit?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Perhaps you and the Team have a different way of judging merit?

acknowledged as a possibility in the post you quoted, but my method is the objective one using the metrics that are out there so it would have to be a pretty radical approach. And just because Babcock "has a different view" (or whatever the quote was from last week) doesn't mean that view has been communicated to the kids - if it hasn't, that's still very bad because the kids won't know what they're doing right or wrong in Babcock's eyes

if Babcock's evaluation methods are a black box for the kids that are trying to break into his system, that's a recipe for frustration and dissension

 

[ACC1224]

acknowledged as a possibility in the post you quoted, but my method is the objective one using the metrics that are out there so it would have to be a pretty radical approach. And just because Babcock "has a different view" (or whatever the quote was from last week) doesn't mean that view has been communicated to the kids - if it hasn't, that's still very bad because the kids won't know what they're doing right or wrong in Babcock's eyes

I don't believe Babcock is known as a poor communicator so I'd guess everyone knows exactly where they stand.

 

[rent free]

Might be naive here but could Polak's spot be in jeapordy only if Zaitsev was healthy and logging big PK minutes?

CyBorg and Dermott aren't relied on heavily to PK so one of them comes out if Rielly is healthy unless Zaitsev is healthy Polak is in.

dermott will be sent down when z comes back

 

[Randy Randerson]

I don't believe Babcock is known as a poor communicator so I'd guess everyone knows exactly where they stand.

I hope you're right, definitely not that way outside of the organization

 

[ULF_55]

I hope you're right, definitely not that way outside of the organization

Do you actually believe we know better than Leafs management? This isn't just Babcock's decision. Babcock didn't sign him.

Certainly, I question their decisions, but let's face it if I was that good I'd be employed in hockey.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Do you actually believe we know better than Leafs management? This isn't just Babcock's decision. Babcock didn't sign him.

Certainly, I question their decisions, but let's face it if I was that good I'd be employed in hockey.

in general? definitely not. Can people be right about specific things that managements can be wrong about? absolutely. I think Dermott is making it clear he's better than Polak for instance

 

[rimshot]

PK is the one argument that I can see for Polak, but we'll see if that's the reason that he's been in when Zaitsev comes back, I have a feeling that we'll see Polak every night still

Marner is in the lineup as much for his stratospheric potential (and corresponding high draft pick investment by the organization) as his actual play. I think calling him a PP specialist is hugely misrepresentative, he's offensive 5v5 as well, but it's fair that his defensive game takes some criticism. He has actually been demoted on multiple occasions as well this year, just not off the team and rightly so because his replacement wouldn't be as good

I'm also not looking to start some kind of a HFLeafs battle, we're all on the same side here. Just think that it's odd that a defensive specialist like Polak who is actually pretty bad defensively (by the metrics available to us) keeps getting in the lineup over younger/cheaper/better options when our coach keeps telling the public that there's jobs available to be stolen

Younger? Yes. Cheaper? Come on. Polak makes 1 million. Anything cheaper is a rounding error on the cap. Better? Perhaps in time these younger and cheaper options will be better but for this next game, I think Babcocks decision of who will be better for the win will be superior to yours or mine every time. Pro sports is a win now proposition.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Do you actually believe we know better than Leafs management? This isn't just Babcock's decision. Babcock didn't sign him.

Certainly, I question their decisions, but let's face it if I was that good I'd be employed in hockey.

does this really need to turn into a personal attack when all the of indicators available to us scream "this guy isn't good"? I'd expect better from a mod

if you want to debate the merits of the scenario, please stick to them

Younger? Yes. Cheaper? Come on. Polak makes 1 million. Anything cheaper is a rounding error on the cap. Better? Perhaps in time these younger and cheaper options will be better but for this next game, I think Babcocks decision of who will be better for the win will be superior to yours or mine every time. Pro sports is a win now proposition.

Toronto Maple Leafs - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

you'll notice that Polak is more expensive than the 3 guys in rotation below him. In terms of "better", its hard to frame it as Polak not being the worst of this group by what we have to judge on:
Roman Polak Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Connor Carrick Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Andreas Borgman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Travis Dermott Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

This organization has been adamantly and publicly in the "patience" camp in terms of building this team, so that would be a departure from what they've been telling us

 

[rimshot]

I hope you're right, definitely not that way outside of the organization

Do you really think that the fans should be kept abreast of all the strategic plans and locker room minutia involved in making lineup decisions?

 

[ULF_55]

in general? definitely not. Can people be right about specific things that managements can be wrong about? absolutely. I think Dermott is making it clear he's better than Polak for instance

I think Dermott looks very good.

Want to see how he looks in 50 games.

I find it difficult to say he is better than Polak because he doesn't play the same minutes or handle the same role.

Same with Komarov and Kapanen. Would Kapanen be better than Komarov? Maybe the same situation as Dermott and Polak, mind you Dermott isn't a RHD, although he can play that position.

It is madness ...

 

[Randy Randerson]

Do you really think that the fans should be kept abreast of all the strategic plans and locker room minutia involved in making lineup decisions?

I think it's confusing when it appears that what the organization is saying and what is being put into practice seem to contradict eachother, and I think the best players should play especially when they're the younger players that will be with the team a while (with the caveat that playing is thought to be good for their development)

 

[ULF_55]

does this really need to turn into a personal attack when all the of indicators available to us scream "this guy isn't good"? I'd expect better from a mod

if you want to debate the merits of the scenario, please stick to them

Bottom line is Polak is in based on Babcock and his staffs determination, and I'll have to suggest they have a better grasp on the situation regardless of how much we want to debate it.

Personal attack? Seriously, suggesting we aren't professional hockey people is an attack?

 

[rimshot]

does this really need to turn into a personal attack when all the of indicators available to us scream "this guy isn't good"? I'd expect better from a mod

if you want to debate the merits of the scenario, please stick to them


Toronto Maple Leafs - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

you'll notice that Polak is more expensive than the 3 guys in rotation below him

This organization has been adamantly and publicly in the "patience" camp in terms of building this team, so that would be a departure from what they've been telling us

A marginally more expensive option. Do you really think that 200 thousand on an 80 million cap is at all material? Patience? I think Babcock is teaching the younger players patience. If you want to earn a job as a defenseman in the NHL then spend some time learning how to kill penalties and don't expect to play above someone who has learned how and is very good at it.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Bottom line is Polak is in based on Babcock and his staffs determination, and I'll have to suggest they have a better grasp on the situation regardless of how much we want to debate it.

Personal attack? Seriously, suggesting we aren't professional hockey people is an attack?

I'm not much for the blind faith in the organization argument, they aren't infallable

I came in with support for my position and your counter was "you are not as smart as them", made it about me not the position, personal by definition

 

[rimshot]

I think it's confusing when it appears that what the organization is saying and what is being put into practice seem to contradict eachother, and I think the best players should play especially when they're the younger players that will be with the team a while (with the caveat that playing is thought to be good for their development)

Oh my.

 

[ACC1224]

I think it's confusing when it appears that what the organization is saying and what is being put into practice seem to contradict eachother, and I think the best players should play especially when they're the younger players that will be with the team a while (with the caveat that playing is thought to be good for their development)

In any sport rosters aren't set by a ranking of the best players. It takes many different types of players to make a Team.
I don't see any of the guys sitting playing the same role Polak is asked to. (Play PK, secondary tough guy)

 

[Randy Randerson]

A marginally more expensive option. Do you really think that 200 thousand on an 80 million cap is at all material? Patience? I think Babcock is teaching the younger players patience. If you want to earn a job as a defenseman in the NHL then spend some time learning how to kill penalties and don't expect to play above someone who has learned how and is very good at it.

let's not dwell on the cheaper part - they are cheaper, I agree that it's not by enough to matter. The important parts are Better and likely to be part of the organization for a while, the kids turning out means more to us

that's what I'm saying though, it looks like the kids are earning it and not getting a chance at Polak's minutes and his seem to not fluctuate based on how he plays

 

[Randy Randerson]

In any sport rosters aren't set by a ranking of the best players. It takes many different types of players to make a Team.
I don't see any of the guys sitting playing the same role Polak is asked to. (Play PK, secondary tough guy)

I think Borgman/Dermott both have those elements in their games, don't you? Maybe not fighting, but that part is diminishing and we have Martin if really needed, but both are physical and defensive

I think there's a very established system in place in pro sports that lets the cream rise (or intentionally separates it to the next level, and repeats that process), so I disagree that level of play is not a major factor in how teams at the top level are formed. In this case there's the development of younger players to consider too, but doesn't make much sense to me to let them sit in a press box to help their development

 

[Al14]

I think Dermott looks very good.

Want to see how he looks in 50 games.

I find it difficult to say he is better than Polak because he doesn't play the same minutes or handle the same role.

Same with Komarov and Kapanen. Would Kapanen be better than Komarov? Maybe the same situation as Dermott and Polak, mind you Dermott isn't a RHD, although he can play that position.

It is MIKE madness ...

Fixed it for you!

 

[ACC1224]

I think Borgman/Dermott both have those elements in their games, don't you? Maybe not fighting, but that part is diminishing and we have Martin if really needed, but both are physical and defensive

I think there's a very established system in place in pro sports that lets the cream rise (or intentionally separates it to the next level, and repeats that process), so I disagree that level of play is not a major factor in how teams at the top level are formed. In this case there's the development of younger players to consider too, but doesn't make much sense to me to let them sit in a press box to help their development

Yes, both are tough players and will be good Leafs for a long time but I don't think you want to put them in that role just yet. Polak can have it for now then leave.

I've always believed that Teams need role players, many Teams have them in various sports. They aren't always the best player but for some reason they help the Team click. Alternatively some Teams get better when "better" players are shipped out, Colorado is a good example.

Here's a conspiracy theory for you.
If Polak wasn't being dressed, who would be the whipping boy? Perhaps that's why he plays.