Proposal: Rickard Rakell To Ottawa

[rt]

Nope

Ducks fan says no?

 

[Xspyrit]

Ryan and Silfverberg are both 2nd liners at this point. Ryan is better offensively despite failing to meet lofty expectations, yet Silfverberg is (much) better defensively, and still put up a 20 goal season despite getting some of the hardest minutes on the team. Ritchie has top 6 potential. Whether he reaches that or not is another matter, but there's been very promising signs in training camp. In that I mean that some of the issues that he was having last season (primarily fitness and skating), seem much improved. Looking back at what we could have had at 10, is Ritchie the best there was? Absolutely not. It doesn't mean he can't iron out a top 6 role with us in the future, especially considering that he fits our playing style to a T. Noesen, though his career has been marred by injury, could still iron out a bottom 6 role some time in the future.


Did either team get the worldbreakers they might have expected? No. On the flipside of the optimism I showed in the last paragraph, there's also a very sizeable chance that Silfverberg could be the only legitimate NHL forward we get. We just can't tell yet.

Since the trade

Silverberg has a 39 pts pace per 82 games
Ryan has a 57 pts pace per 82 games

A 18 pts difference in hockey today does NOT equal "both are 2nd liners at this point"

Yes, Ryan has had trouble to finish seasons without slumping, which is mainly due to not being able to stay healthy and maybe a lack of endurance, but for the first 50-60 games, he was an IMPACT player close to PPG in those 3 seasons, arguably Ottawa's best player with Karlsson.

Since the trade, Ryan is 57th overall for points by forwards. Silfverberg is 155th

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=0&type=individual&sort=ipoints&sortdir=DESC

Points per 60 minutes (forwards with at least 500 minutes)? Ryan is 65th, Silfverberg is 200th


Other pieces are insignificant at this point

I'm not saying the Ducks shouldn't be happy with the deal but I don't see any reason why the Sens shouldn't be, so no when you say "especially with how the Ryan trade worked out"...

Saying all this as a huge Silfverberg fan and still am, mainly because of my Swedish bias and my American players indifference.

well that is certainly about as pro sens spin as you can get.


that "3rd liner" is apart of an elite two way line that plays against the opponents top players every night, and still manages to come well ahead in possession numbers, despite a large amount of defensive zone starts, against said top players.

20 goals, one of the best defensive and possession wingers in the league, in addition to being a very good PK'er, that is some definition of 3rd liner you have there.

Not getting into a long debate to not waste precious time, but for my part, I don't see trades as one team wins and the other loses. Teams trade from a different context to fill a need from a position of strength. Sens at that time had lot of young assets/picks/prospects and could afford to do a quantity for quality deal. They needed a Star Winger after losing Alfredsson. I hope for you that the Ducks reached their goal with that trade, both teams can end up being happy in the end, it's very well possible. Wish more people would finally be able to see that on HF, it would make the discussion a bit better and realistic lol

Silfverberg (I was a fan of him probably well before you) is an Elite 3rd liner and an ok 2nd liner but 39 pts per 82 games doesn't make you a productive top-6 forward.

It was hard to part with him, we know how good he is (makes me think of Magnus Arvedson, that kind of player is very valuable). But you have to give to get, and we needed a guy like Ryan. We just drafted Curtis Lazar before the trade, so it also made sense from that perspective. Lazar could be an Elite 3rd liner as well.

Too much from Ottawa, Rackell is good but a potential top 5 pick in the 2017 draft is a bit much.

haha you guys are funny. The lowest Ottawa has drafted in 20 years is :

- 6th in 2011 (finally rebuilt)
- 9th in 2009 (should have started the rebuild)
- 10th in 2014 (setback year after spanking the Habs)

(Spezza 2nd in 2001 was acquired from a trade, Lee 9th in 2005 was due to the Crosby lottery)

They were selecting 12th last year and outside of that, always 15th or more.

Colin White
2018 1st

For

Rakell
Roy

No, I'd rather try with Dzingel, Puempel or Paul to fill MacArthur's role. Really don't like this trade

Arizona can fix that. Rieder+'18 2nd for Lazar+Sieloff.

Interested, send me the paperwork

Hoffman-Turris-Stone
Dzingel-Brassard-Ryan
Smith-Pageau-Rieder
Puempel-Kelly-Neil
Pyatt

Call up : Paul, McCormick, Perron, Robinson.

I love Lazar but losing MacArthur might force the Sens to make a move.

 

[Flukeshot]

Value aside, Rakell makes a lot of sense for Ottawa IMO.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Since the trade

Silverberg has a 39 pts pace per 82 games
Ryan has a 57 pts pace per 82 games

A 18 pts difference in hockey today does NOT equal "both are 2nd liners at this point"

Yes, Ryan has had trouble to finish seasons without slumping, which is mainly due to not being able to stay healthy and maybe a lack of endurance, but for the first 50-60 games, he was an IMPACT player close to PPG in those 3 seasons, arguably Ottawa's best player with Karlsson.

Since the trade, Ryan is 57th overall for points by forwards. Silfverberg is 155th

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=0&type=individual&sort=ipoints&sortdir=DESC

Points per 60 minutes (forwards with at least 500 minutes)? Ryan is 65th, Silfverberg is 200th


Other pieces are insignificant at this point

I'm not saying the Ducks shouldn't be happy with the deal but I don't see any reason why the Sens shouldn't be, so no when you say "especially with how the Ryan trade worked out"...

Saying all this as a huge Silfverberg fan and still am, mainly because of my Swedish bias and my American players indifference.



Not getting into a long debate to not waste precious time, but for my part, I don't see trades as one team wins and the other loses. Teams trade from a different context to fill a need from a position of strength. Sens at that time had lot of young assets/picks/prospects and could afford to do a quantity for quality deal. They needed a Star Winger after losing Alfredsson. I hope for you that the Ducks reached their goal with that trade, both teams can end up being happy in the end, it's very well possible. Wish more people would finally be able to see that on HF, it would make the discussion a bit better and realistic lol

Silfverberg (I was a fan of him probably well before you) is an Elite 3rd liner and an ok 2nd liner but 39 pts per 82 games doesn't make you a productive top-6 forward.

It was hard to part with him, we know how good he is (makes me think of Magnus Arvedson, that kind of player is very valuable). But you have to give to get, and we needed a guy like Ryan. We just drafted Curtis Lazar before the trade, so it also made sense from that perspective. Lazar could be an Elite 3rd liner as well.

There's more to hockey than putting up points. Ryan averages 18 points more, Silfverberg is the Ducks best defensive winger and takes on the toughest matchups, he makes up for at least a large portion of that point difference at the other end.

 

[Liver King]

im kind of confused though..whats the hold up on his contract? like is he asking for a ton or something

tryna get clarity on the likelihood of him being dealt

 

[dracom]

im kind of confused though..whats the hold up on his contract? like is he asking for a ton or something

tryna get clarity on the likelihood of him being dealt

No one knows how much he's asking. He might still be in the hospital so maybe contracts are on hold until he gets better.

 

[Xspyrit]

There's more to hockey than putting up points. Ryan averages 18 points more, Silfverberg is the Ducks best defensive winger and takes on the toughest matchups, he makes up for at least a large portion of that point difference at the other end.

Did I say that Silfverberg wasn't very valuable? You play that type of player on your shutdown line, not on your most offensive lines.

Did you read my post entirely? Seriously, everything is there, don't need to add anything else and you're just repeating what I was already answering to, so if you don't have anything to add... I think we're done here.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Since the trade

Silverberg has a 39 pts pace per 82 games
Ryan has a 57 pts pace per 82 games

A 18 pts difference in hockey today does NOT equal "both are 2nd liners at this point"

Yes, Ryan has had trouble to finish seasons without slumping, which is mainly due to not being able to stay healthy and maybe a lack of endurance, but for the first 50-60 games, he was an IMPACT player close to PPG in those 3 seasons, arguably Ottawa's best player with Karlsson.

Since the trade, Ryan is 57th overall for points by forwards. Silfverberg is 155th

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=0&type=individual&sort=ipoints&sortdir=DESC

Points per 60 minutes (forwards with at least 500 minutes)? Ryan is 65th, Silfverberg is 200th


Other pieces are insignificant at this point

I'm not saying the Ducks shouldn't be happy with the deal but I don't see any reason why the Sens shouldn't be, so no when you say "especially with how the Ryan trade worked out"...

Saying all this as a huge Silfverberg fan and still am, mainly because of my Swedish bias and my American players indifference.

There's more to hockey than points. I said myself that Ryan, despite failing to meet lofty expectations, was the better player offensively, but Silfverberg, in addition to borderline 2nd line production, really makes up the difference with his defensive play. In defensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Silfverberg is 54th, while Ryan sits all the way down at 328.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC


In offensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Bobby Ryan sits 15th, while Silfverberg sits all the way down at 290th.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=OZPCT&sortdir=DESC


What does this prove? If you want to use the points argument, then look at the above stats. Ryan gets a LOT more favorable matchups than Silfverberg does and that gulf of 18 points between the two can close considerably then. Tack on Silfverberg's large advantage in defensive skill and yes, you can make the argument that both are 2nd liners.

 

[lindholmie]

Did I say that Silfverberg wasn't very valuable? You play that type of player on your shutdown line, not on your most offensive lines.

Did you read my post entirely? Seriously, everything is there, don't need to add anything else and you're just repeating what I was already answering to, so if you don't have anything to add... I think we're done here.

silf has 23 points in his last 23 playoff games while playing toughest comp. pretty decent

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Arizona can fix that. Rieder+'18 2nd for Lazar+Sieloff.

Ok talked me into it

 

[bert]

Too much from Ottawa, Rackell is good but a potential top 5 pick in the 2017 draft is a bit much.

Top 5 pick wow I guess a young team getting a year older and regressing dramatically makes sense.

 

[Ducksgo*]

silf has 23 points in his last 23 playoff games while playing toughest comp. pretty decent

PPG player in Silf. You have an extremely strong statement. And I agree with you 100%

 

[Kurt Cobain]

God I would love Rakell on the Devils. What would it take? Is he even available?

 

[Ducksgo*]

God I would love Rakell on the Devils. What would it take? Is he even available?

Top 6 LW and no that's not Cammy

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Doubt that Ottawa or Anaheim have any interest in this deal.

 

[Liver King]

No one knows how much he's asking. He might still be in the hospital so maybe contracts are on hold until he gets better.

so what would you say the chances are he actually gets dealt?

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Top 6 LW and no that's not Cammy

I wouldn't offer Cammalleri he's worth more to us than anywhere else and we know how good he is when healthy and the age difference makes no sense for you anyway. I thought you guys wanted forwards? Why would you trade such a good young player with size, skill and scoring ability. Every Ducks game I've watched he's impressed me. Is it a contact issue or a position issue? Like to many right handed shots. I just can't believe he would be available, I don't think he's scratched the surface of his potential.

I'm guessing left handed shot since you want a left wing.

 

[dracom]

so what would you say the chances are he actually gets dealt?

If he's still in the hospital? 0/%. Chance he gets dealt at all? Eh, I would say it's a hard no he doesn't, but GMs have done dumber things, so...

 

[dracom]

I wouldn't offer Cammalleri he's worth more to us than anywhere else and we know how good he is when healthy and the age difference makes no sense for you anyway. I thought you guys wanted forwards? Why would you trade such a good young player with size, skill and scoring ability. Every Ducks game I've watched he's impressed me. Is it a contact issue or a position issue? Like to many right handed shots. I just can't believe he would be available, I don't think he's scratched the surface of his potential.

I'm guessing left handed shot since you want a left wing.

We do need forwards, LW left handed shooters as stated by Murray. No knows what the problem is with his contract, but I would imagine Murray is trying to get the Lindholm contract dealt with first. Doesn't matter, because he's not available.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

so what would you say the chances are he actually gets dealt?

Slim to none, if anything we need to clone him, not move him.

 

[Xspyrit]

There's more to hockey than points. I said myself that Ryan, despite failing to meet lofty expectations, was the better player offensively, but Silfverberg, in addition to borderline 2nd line production, really makes up the difference with his defensive play. In defensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Silfverberg is 54th, while Ryan sits all the way down at 328.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC


In offensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Bobby Ryan sits 15th, while Silfverberg sits all the way down at 290th.


http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=OZPCT&sortdir=DESC


What does this prove? If you want to use the points argument, then look at the above stats. Ryan gets a LOT more favorable matchups than Silfverberg does and that gulf of 18 points between the two can close considerably then. Tack on Silfverberg's large advantage in defensive skill and yes, you can make the argument that both are 2nd liners.

All that is cute and everything, but it doesn't change the fact that the Sens needed a top-line winger after Alfredsson's departure and eventual retirement. That's why both teams made the swap :

- Ryan would have become too expensive for Anaheim and could afford to make a quality for quantity deal

- Sens needed a guy like Ryan and sacrificed Silf to acquire him

It really is simple.

You know that thing you just did could be done with many other players... Let's have fun and waste precious time I guess :

Couturier had 39 pts in 63 games last season (51 pts pace). Getzlaf had 63 pts in 77 games last season (67 pts pace)

Difference in points was "hypothetically" 16 pts.

In defensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Couturier is 98th, while Getzlaf was 171st.

In offensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Getzlaf sits 97th, while Couturier sits all the way down at 277th.

What does this prove? If you want to use the points argument, then look at the above stats. Getzlaf gets a LOT more favorable matchups than Couturier does and that gulf of 16 points between the two can close considerably then. Tack on Couturier's large advantage in defensive skill and yes, you can make the argument that both are 2nd liners

 

[eternalbedhead]

All that is cute and everything, but it doesn't change the fact that the Sens needed a top-line winger after Alfredsson's departure and eventual retirement. That's why both teams made the swap :

- Ryan would have become too expensive for Anaheim and could afford to make a quality for quantity deal

- Sens needed a guy like Ryan and sacrificed Silf to acquire him

It really is simple.

You know that thing you just did could be done with many other players... Let's have fun and waste precious time I guess :

Couturier had 39 pts in 63 games last season (51 pts pace). Getzlaf had 63 pts in 77 games last season (67 pts pace)

Difference in points was "hypothetically" 16 pts.

In defensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Couturier is 98th, while Getzlaf was 171st.

In offensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Getzlaf sits 97th, while Couturier sits all the way down at 277th.

What does this prove? If you want to use the points argument, then look at the above stats. Getzlaf gets a LOT more favorable matchups than Couturier does and that gulf of 16 points between the two can close considerably then. Tack on Couturier's large advantage in defensive skill and yes, you can make the argument that both are 2nd liners

Touche, but you're ignoring several things here, most prominently the fact that Getzlaf, along with pretty much the entire team, were nothing less than snakebitten at the start of the year which obviously impacted their point totals. Silfverberg was affected by this as well; his 1st half of the season was lackluster on the offensive side, but he still managed to hit a near-40 point pace due to an extended hot streak he went on to end the year.

Career arc, which we unfortunately don't have the luxury of with Silf and Ryan considering that Silfverberg is still relatively new to the NHL and Ryan is still relatively new to Ottawa, (and hasn't validated any insinuations that he could continue to chug out 30 goal seasons without playing with Getzlaf and Perry) also must be taken into account; Getzlaf is an established franchise centerman, Couturier is still up-and-coming but is at the very least a very solid 2nd liner.


You're also ignoring the fact that Getzlaf, though he's not a defensive specialist like Couturier, is not a defensive liability himself, and was the guy who took on a lot of the harder matchups before we acquired Kesler. He spends and has spent considerable time on our PK. His defensive game isn't his strong suit, but it's still good.


Also, the gulf between Getzlaf and Couturier in defensive and offensive zone starts is not quite as large as between Silfverberg and Ryan. Getzlaf gets (a lot) more defensive zone starts than Ryan and Silfverberg gets more than Couturier.


Now, since Ryan has been in Ottawa, he's been producing on a 57 point pace, correct? Those are hardly 1st line numbers, and especially when he's not great in his own end, I fail to see how you can call him a 1st liner. Now, Silfverberg, this past season, hit 39 points. 20 goals. Maybe not 10 years ago, but that's just about the going rate for lower-end offensive 2nd liners. Once again, he makes up for any offensive shortcoming with his defensive play. I think it's fair to say he's a 2nd liner.

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

All that is cute and everything, but it doesn't change the fact that the Sens needed a top-line winger after Alfredsson's departure and eventual retirement. That's why both teams made the swap :

- Ryan would have become too expensive for Anaheim and could afford to make a quality for quantity deal

- Sens needed a guy like Ryan and sacrificed Silf to acquire him

It really is simple.

You know that thing you just did could be done with many other players... Let's have fun and waste precious time I guess :

Couturier had 39 pts in 63 games last season (51 pts pace). Getzlaf had 63 pts in 77 games last season (67 pts pace)

Difference in points was "hypothetically" 16 pts.

In defensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Couturier is 98th, while Getzlaf was 171st.

In offensive zone start% (minimum 500 minutes), Getzlaf sits 97th, while Couturier sits all the way down at 277th.

What does this prove? If you want to use the points argument, then look at the above stats. Getzlaf gets a LOT more favorable matchups than Couturier does and that gulf of 16 points between the two can close considerably then. Tack on Couturier's large advantage in defensive skill and yes, you can make the argument that both are 2nd liners

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Touche, but you're ignoring several things here, most prominently the fact that Getzlaf, along with pretty much the entire team, were nothing less than snakebitten at the start of the year which obviously impacted their point totals. Silfverberg was affected by this as well; his 1st half of the season was lackluster on the offensive side, but he still managed to hit a near-40 point pace due to an extended hot streak he went on to end the year.

Career arc, which we unfortunately don't have the luxury of with Silf and Ryan considering that Silfverberg is still relatively new to the NHL and Ryan is still relatively new to Ottawa, (and hasn't validated any insinuations that he could continue to chug out 30 goal seasons without playing with Getzlaf and Perry) also must be taken into account; Getzlaf is an established franchise centerman, Couturier is still up-and-coming but is at the very least a very solid 2nd liner.


You're also ignoring the fact that Getzlaf, though he's not a defensive specialist like Couturier, is not a defensive liability himself, and was the guy who took on a lot of the harder matchups before we acquired Kesler. He spends and has spent considerable time on our PK. His defensive game isn't his strong suit, but it's still good.


Also, the gulf between Getzlaf and Couturier in defensive and offensive zone starts is not quite as large as between Silfverberg and Ryan. Getzlaf gets (a lot) more defensive zone starts than Ryan and Silfverberg gets more than Couturier.


Now, since Ryan has been in Ottawa, he's been producing on a 57 point pace, correct? Those are hardly 1st line numbers, and especially when he's not great in his own end, I fail to see how you can call him a 1st liner. Now, Silfverberg, this past season, hit 39 points. 20 goals. Maybe not 10 years ago, but that's just about the going rate for lower-end offensive 2nd liners. Once again, he makes up for any offensive shortcoming with his defensive play. I think it's fair to say he's a 2nd liner.

And I am sure you ignored several things on the other side of the spectrum as well. If everyone considered every angle when discussing a point like this, we'd all be experts..

 

[xxreact9]

Rakell seems very Similar stat wise to Rieder (like 5 point difference) and we can get Rieder one for one for Lazar from Yotes fans. So i dont see the point in adding to get Rackell when we can get Rieder one for one

This is just about the worst possible way to justify a trade