This isn't a hard decision because his cap management has sucked. Keep trying to dress it up, it's a result of his incompetence.
Salary Cap: RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA
- Thread starter Frk It
- Start date
- Status
This isn't a hard decision because his cap management has sucked. Keep trying to dress it up, it's a result of his incompetence.
Syckle78
Registered User
Lil Sebastian Cossa
Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
- Jul 6, 2012
- 11,436
- 7,446
I mean, it is "a" hard decision. Would trading away Ericsson or LTIRing Kronwall or any of the moves people want to make really be a hard decision?
The hard decisions were always going to involve Tatar or Nyquist or Larkin or Mantha. They're not going to be surrounding those players that you'd trade away for a bag of sawed in half pucks.
This kind of criticism about it seems like grr, Holland Man make move I no like.
It kinda blows my mind actually. During the year it was "Holy crap, we can't have Nyquist and Tatar both on the team, they're both passengers. We don't want to actually be passable, we want to really suck." "We don't have any elite players and/or any guys we have here now won't be here when we are Realgud again, so why are we hanging onto them."
Now, it's "Holland, what the hell, why are you playing hardball with Tatar? He's the only player we have who is any good!
I wish they could keep Tatar, but if he wants 7/$42, I want to let him go away, because I'm done signing guys to more than they're worth when we are going into a rebuild. I don't actually care about Helm and Abby and all of them. Those contracts are signed. That train has left the station. Just because you crapped the bed on those doesn't mean that you continue to do so for a player who is good, but truly isn't a game changer.
To end, don't get me wrong. I wish they could keep Tatar in Detroit and keep him on a deal that makes sense. But I'm not at all interested in paying him 1-1.5M more than he's worth while we are entering a rebuild... especially not when we are coming to the end of some of our worst deals. If Tatar at 6M gives you 25-30 goals or you sign a guy like Patrick Eaves (not him exactly, but similar type player) for $2M and he gives you 15-20, you're further ahead with the lesser player. The bulk of your points should start coming from the rookies you're drafting anyway.
Heaton
Moderator
Disappointing it's looking like we're going to lose a productive offensive forward in favor of two forwards that are devoid of offense. It's especially disappointing since this Wings team is so incredibly boring to watch and scored the fewest goals in 50 years last season.
Ah well, it'll help in the long run, less goals equals less wins. I'm hopeful the Wings will find a way to unload Nyquist, Helm, Abdelkader and Nielsen in the next couple years.
Ah well, it'll help in the long run, less goals equals less wins. I'm hopeful the Wings will find a way to unload Nyquist, Helm, Abdelkader and Nielsen in the next couple years.
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
"Especially when we are coming to the end of some of our worst deals."
Well Kenny added two more last year which probably won't be topped in terms of negative value.
It's why I find it amusing how people talk about the Wings cap situation clearing up in a couple years. That's making the massive assumption that Kenny won't replace that freed up cap space with another terrible contract. Unfortunately literally any long term contract would be bad for the Wings when factoring in the shape the team will be in for the next half decade. The fact that Holland was willing to give Tatar 5x5 is not smart.
Well Kenny added two more last year which probably won't be topped in terms of negative value.
It's why I find it amusing how people talk about the Wings cap situation clearing up in a couple years. That's making the massive assumption that Kenny won't replace that freed up cap space with another terrible contract. Unfortunately literally any long term contract would be bad for the Wings when factoring in the shape the team will be in for the next half decade. The fact that Holland was willing to give Tatar 5x5 is not smart.
Henkka
Registered User
Yeah, everybody is yelling that we should trade players who have value for futures.
Tatar is exactly that kind of player. Valuable now, but not that valuable, when our next core will hit on their prime. Those assets get for him could be nearer their prime with our future core. Very very simple thing to understand.
You sell Tatar, it's a rebuilding move. We lose some scoring, but get futures.
When the team weakens, it's a rebuilding move. All our draft picks will be higher in becoming drafts, when we are gonna suck.
So Kenny is rebuilding, like everybody will want, but people will hate it. Hilarious.
Tatar is exactly that kind of player. Valuable now, but not that valuable, when our next core will hit on their prime. Those assets get for him could be nearer their prime with our future core. Very very simple thing to understand.
You sell Tatar, it's a rebuilding move. We lose some scoring, but get futures.
When the team weakens, it's a rebuilding move. All our draft picks will be higher in becoming drafts, when we are gonna suck.
So Kenny is rebuilding, like everybody will want, but people will hate it. Hilarious.
Heaton
Moderator
So Kenny is rebuilding, like everybody will want, but people will hate it. Hilarious.
How is signing Nielsen, Helm, and Abdelkader to long term deals rebuilding moves? I can see if it your expectation is that this team's next core won't be in place for 6+ years.
I don't think it really matters anyway, the next GM will have to move some of these bad contracts soon regardless, Holland just makes the next GM's job a little more difficult. Although, I do find it incredibly disingenuous to spin all of Holland's moves as being 100% correct and everything he's doing is calculated and perfectly thought out for the future. It's an interesting viewpoint since this organization is nowhere close to having a stocked cupboard, I'd argue we have no blue chip prospects and no one to actually get overly excited about. It's not like we have a Marner completely obliterating the lower leagues. We have some nice guys coming up, some that may surprise. But we're pretty far away from anything.
So yeah, expect some more Holland bashing until he starts doing things proactively on purpose, and his **** ups don't end up 'helping' us because we need to be bad anyway.
Those wouldn't be hard decisions, just impossible ones. No one wants Ericsson, and Kronwall won't go onto LTIR unless he absolutely has to. I think the time for hard decisions is pretty much past for a bit. The hard decision would have been dealing Helm/Gator for picks. Or not re-signing Ericsson in the first place. Etc. At this point, our die is pretty much cast and Holland is making moves he's essentially backed into -such as a one and done deal with Tatar.
Tough decisions to come would probably be something along the lines of eating salary to move someone, or buying them out. The first is possible, but the second arguably does more harm than good at this point.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,243
- 14,753
Yeah, everybody is yelling that we should trade players who have value for futures.
Tatar is exactly that kind of player. Valuable now, but not that valuable, when our next core will hit on their prime. Those assets get for him could be nearer their prime with our future core. Very very simple thing to understand.
You sell Tatar, it's a rebuilding move. We lose some scoring, but get futures.
When the team weakens, it's a rebuilding move. All our draft picks will be higher in becoming drafts, when we are gonna suck.
So Kenny is rebuilding, like everybody will want, but people will hate it. Hilarious.
If he trades Tatar, it will be because he has to, because of the cap mess he made.
He will try to extend him every day until the trade deadline. There is no secret hidden tank strategy.
Know what will be funnier? When we keep Tatar for a playoff push and then he walks in free agency for nothing.
Heaton
Moderator
Then we can proclaim that it's a rebuilding move since the team got worse. Adding good prospects just prevents this team from being bad!
Then we can proclaim that it's a rebuilding move since the team got worse. Adding good prospects just prevents this team from being bad!
No matter what he does, Holland is playing inter-dimensional Pictionary. He can't lose.
Lazlo Hollyfeld
The jersey ad still sucks
- Mar 4, 2004
- 28,616
- 27,071
That's simply not true. As a few have already mentioned Ericsson was solid last season, especially relative to the rest of the defense.
A young coach leaning on veterans, sometimes to a fault, does not mean there's some Swedish mafia. It's such a ridiculous theory I can't believe it needs to be called out as false.
Lazlo Hollyfeld
The jersey ad still sucks
- Mar 4, 2004
- 28,616
- 27,071
Yup. Re-sign mediocre players to 5 and 7 year deals. Play hardball with the team's leading goal scorer so you turn him into a deadline rental, at best. Classic rebuild strategy.
Last edited:
ArGarBarGar
What do we want!? Unfair!
- Sep 8, 2008
- 44,037
- 11,732
Yeah, everybody is yelling that we should trade players who have value for futures.
Tatar is exactly that kind of player. Valuable now, but not that valuable, when our next core will hit on their prime. Those assets get for him could be nearer their prime with our future core. Very very simple thing to understand.
You sell Tatar, it's a rebuilding move. We lose some scoring, but get futures.
When the team weakens, it's a rebuilding move. All our draft picks will be higher in becoming drafts, when we are gonna suck.
So Kenny is rebuilding, like everybody will want, but people will hate it. Hilarious.
What could Holland realistically do that would displease you?
Cyborg Yzerberg
Registered User
I swear, it's like some people don't even watch the games and Ericsson in particular, handling every puck like it's a grenade in his own zone, with no skating nor passing abilities.
His is good at scoring own goals thou!
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
It only makes sense if you begin with the end decision of wanting to believe everything Ken Holland does is right. Of course that requires you to be willfully ignorant of the fact Holland offered him a 5 year deal which Tatar rejected.
Kenny is so brilliant! He purposely offered a 5 year deal that looked somewhat competitive but he knew Tatar would reject it, thereby helping to reach Holland's ultimate goal of losing him after one more year.
Fan fiction at its finest.
Fair credit to Henkka, the response to all of this is odd. Anyone who wants a rebuild should be happy to get rid of Tatar, and should be happy that KH's offer wasn't good enough to bring him back long term. It doesn't mean KH was smart or planned this, or that it's an intentional strategy, but I have no earthly idea why you'd ever want to bring Tatar back on this team, under these circumstances. A few more goals and a bit more scoring simply isn't worth any extra points in the standings, and keeping a player who isn't age-matched to the inevitable rebuild is silly.
If the team had been managed better, and if the team didn't have a logjam of inane contracts for worse old players, re-signing Tatar right now still wouldn't make any sense. At some point, you have to stop desperately clinging to players who are just good enough to have pretty box scores, but who are not, in any way, good enough to get the team to contention.
If the team had been managed better, and if the team didn't have a logjam of inane contracts for worse old players, re-signing Tatar right now still wouldn't make any sense. At some point, you have to stop desperately clinging to players who are just good enough to have pretty box scores, but who are not, in any way, good enough to get the team to contention.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
With all due respect this is not true at all. You could have traded Tatar last year when he still had RFA status and was under club control. I have no idea how much validity there was to the suggestion that Tatar would have been part of a trade for Cam Fowler but that just goes to show that Tatar had high value at that point while Fowler hadn't fully developed to the point he did just this season. The larger point is guys have more value when they are a RFA at the end of their contract. Anyone who get Tatar now is likely getting a rental.
So Holland just bled away value. OK, so what does he do next? Oh that's right, he handcuffs himself by signing a bunch of players past their prime to awful contracts. This is the Dan Cleary situation all over again only in that case at least Cleary was signing one year deals. The Cleary situation at least didn't prevent Nyquist from being called up when all the depth veterans didn't do **** and we were in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.
So Holland is incapable of playing market rate to Tatar because he is jammed up against the cap with awful, awful contracts. As a result he will get one year of Tatar and at that point Tatar has indicated he will 100% test the market. So you have an asset that is basically a rental. At least if Tatar was locked down for multiple years you have a more valuable trade chip. If you can't see how that value continues to plummet due to Holland's awful management I really don't know what to tell you.
This is pure incompetence.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,243
- 14,753
Tatar is one of the few players on the team that are actually fun and entertaining to watch, and some people still plan on watching this team while it's bad.
If he's flipped for a 1st at the deadline, I'll live with that, but it will just make this hard to watch team even harder to watch.
Tatar can score highlight reel goals. Abby and Helm win board battles. We're paying for one at the expense of the other.
Because it's not everybody's goal to be a historically bad team? And at some point in gutting talent you reach a point of diminished returns?
Also, everyone is already writing off the next five years as if they have already happened and were lousy. If that's really the belief, we're also saying that Larkin, Mantha, AA, etc. are not going to be important players either, and we may as well trade them, too.
edit: wow, looks like njx9's post really hit a nerve considering the number of relies that bounced up in short order.
Lazlo Hollyfeld
The jersey ad still sucks
- Mar 4, 2004
- 28,616
- 27,071
I swear sometimes it's like people bash Ericsson out of habit.
I'm not saying he's great but I and several others here believed him to be serviceable, and certainly not worthy of benching considering the rest of the defensive corps.
Last season was not the year to call out Ericsson as particularly bad. He rebounded.
Lazlo Hollyfeld
The jersey ad still sucks
- Mar 4, 2004
- 28,616
- 27,071
The response to me doesn't seem odd at all. Failing to put together a competitive team is not the same as rebuilding.
If Tatar's contract demands are true, it probably is better that the Wings don't lock him up for 6 years. But part of the reason for that ask and part of the reason it's a problem is because of the terrible long term contracts Holland has handed out. When someone like Abby gets a 7 year deal it's not a big surprise Tatar would want 6.
So yes Holland will be moving an asset but it will be a trade deadline rental for a player who doesn't have a great playoff track record. He'll be moving Tatar at what is probably his lowest value. It's not hard for me to see why people wouldn't be praising Holland for this fantastic rebuilding move.
- Status
