Salary Cap: RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA

[njx9]

With all due respect this is not true at all. You could have traded Tatar last year when he still had RFA status and was under club control. I have no idea how much validity there was to the suggestion that Tatar would have been part of a trade for Cam Fowler but that just goes to show that Tatar had high value at that point while Fowler hadn't fully developed to the point he did just this season. The larger point is guys have more value when they are a RFA at the end of their contract. Anyone who get Tatar now is likely getting a rental.

I don't disagree with the idea that he should've been traded prior to now and that, once again, management found a way to fail to understand how bad the team actually was, and that an incremental rebuild wasn't going to happen. But there's still no reason in the world to hang on to him any longer. So, maybe I mis-wrote something and I'm not seeing it, but I don't think we really disagree here.

The response to me doesn't seem odd at all. Failing to put together a competitive team is not the same as rebuilding.

If Tatar's contract demands are true, it probably is better that the Wings don't lock him up for 6 years. But part of the reason for that ask and part of the reason it's a problem is because of the terrible long term contracts Holland has handed out. When someone like Abby gets a 7 year deal it's not a big surprise Tatar would want 6.

So yes Holland will be moving an asset but it will be a trade deadline rental for a player who doesn't have a great playoff track record. He'll be moving Tatar at what is probably his lowest value. It's not hard for me to see why people wouldn't be praising Holland for this fantastic rebuilding move.

Whether Tatar wanted 6 or 4 or 2, he still shouldn't be resigned to this team. That's all I'm finding odd - that there's any contingent at all (at least, apart from the minority who think this team could still make the playoffs) who want him resigned or who are upset that Holland didn't/couldn't/won't bring him back on a long term deal.

And while I absolutely agree, again, that Tatar should've been moved before now, moving him now is still an infinitely better move than resigning him on a 'real' contract.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't disagree with the idea that he should've been traded prior to now and that, once again, management found a way to fail to understand how bad the team actually was, and that an incremental rebuild wasn't going to happen. But there's still no reason in the world to hang on to him any longer. So, maybe I mis-wrote something and I'm not seeing it, but I don't think we really disagree here.



Whether Tatar wanted 6 or 4 or 2, he still shouldn't be resigned to this team. That's all I'm finding odd - that there's any contingent at all (at least, apart from the minority who think this team could still make the playoffs) who want him resigned or who are upset that Holland didn't/couldn't/won't bring him back on a long term deal.

And while I absolutely agree, again, that Tatar should've been moved before now, moving him now is still an infinitely better move than resigning him on a 'real' contract.

I generally agree, but I'm not surprised people aren't cheering Holland for this move.

Because unless Holland makes a major change of direction from here on out, this is not part of a rebuilding strategy. It's the result of him painting himself into a corner and Tatar being the fallout from that. For all we know Holland could be wanting to sign an aging vet he hopes will replace Tatar's scoring.

 

[Bench]

Trade Tatar, sign Jagr. We know that's what Kenny wants in his heart. And honestly I'd prefer it to another 5 year deal to a winger.

I wish it was Helm or Abby being pinched out, but that's not how our GM operates. Can't even give away Helm.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

With all due respect this is not true at all. You could have traded Tatar last year when he still had RFA status and was under club control. I have no idea how much validity there was to the suggestion that Tatar would have been part of a trade for Cam Fowler but that just goes to show that Tatar had high value at that point while Fowler hadn't fully developed to the point he did just this season. The larger point is guys have more value when they are a RFA at the end of their contract. Anyone who get Tatar now is likely getting a rental.

So Holland just bled away value. OK, so what does he do next? Oh that's right, he handcuffs himself by signing a bunch of players past their prime to awful contracts. This is the Dan Cleary situation all over again only in that case at least Cleary was signing one year deals. The Cleary situation at least didn't prevent Nyquist from being called up when all the depth veterans didn't do **** and we were in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.

So Holland is incapable of playing market rate to Tatar because he is jammed up against the cap with awful, awful contracts. As a result he will get one year of Tatar and at that point Tatar has indicated he will 100% test the market. So you have an asset that is basically a rental. At least if Tatar was locked down for multiple years you have a more valuable trade chip. If you can't see how that value continues to plummet due to Holland's awful management I really don't know what to tell you.

This is pure incompetence.

Pure incompetence would have been rushing hat in hand to Tatar to beg him back for 7/42. Which, by the way, isn't market value. He's going to have tough sledding getting that money and that term. 5 years, 30? Maybe he pulls that. 3 years 19? I can see that too.

But he is either getting ~6M or he's getting 7 years. Not both.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I would say as of now, all indications from Tatars camp is that he simply does not want to play here

he is pricing himself on purpose to be unaffordable

that does not mean he would demand that same deal from any of the other 30 NHL teams

I am not sure I blame him at all

 

[Flowah]

Pure incompetence would have been rushing hat in hand to Tatar to beg him back for 7/42. Which, by the way, isn't market value. He's going to have tough sledding getting that money and that term. 5 years, 30? Maybe he pulls that. 3 years 19? I can see that too.

But he is either getting ~6M or he's getting 7 years. Not both.

Custance talked to some guys around the NHL who thought ~5.5-6 seemed fair for the guy for at least 5 years.

He's not out of his mind with his ask, especially as an opener for negotiations.

 

[jolly roger]

Custance talked to some guys around the NHL who thought ~5.5-6 seemed fair for the guy for at least 5 years.

He's not out of his mind with his ask, especially as an opener for negotiations.

I'm not a Holland fan BUT 5milx5 years is a deal Tatar should not have walked away from. Tatar got bad advice imo.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Custance talked to some guys around the NHL who thought ~5.5-6 seemed fair for the guy for at least 5 years.

He's not out of his mind with his ask, especially as an opener for negotiations.

Not out of mind, no... but he does need to know he's at the upper end of the upper end with it.

5x5 is actually probably fair, and 5.5 isn't beyond the pail. But the thing is... there is a HUGE difference between 5x5 or even 5x6 when it is compared to 7x6. That's at minimum 12M more guaranteed money. 4 or 5 year deal, he's not crazy to approach 6. Maybe land it at 5.75.

But beyond that... I don't think it's a good deal.

I feel like somewhere between 30-35M in guaranteed money is what he could/should expect. 5x6, 7x5. Either of those deals is eminently reasonable. I don't want the Wings paying them, but they're reasonable for what Tatar is.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I'm not a Holland fan BUT 5milx5 years is a deal Tatar should not have walked away from. Tatar got bad advice imo.

he may just not want to play here

thats the sense I got from that comment regarding if it goes to arbitration

 

[jkutswings]

Pure incompetence would have been rushing hat in hand to Tatar to beg him back for 7/42.

You mean like when he couldn't get to the table fast enough to give Abdelkader 7 years? Not for the same AAV, no, but most definitely way too early (November 2015) and at least 2 years too long, even prior to this last debacle of a season for Justin (and nearly everybody else).

A 7 year deal for an above average scoring winger that's stayed relatively healthy is still too much. But it's downright sensible, compared to giving it to a grinder (whose style of play will impact his longevity a lot more than Tatar's will).

 

[Run the Jewels]

Pure incompetence would have been rushing hat in hand to Tatar to beg him back for 7/42. Which, by the way, isn't market value. He's going to have tough sledding getting that money and that term. 5 years, 30? Maybe he pulls that. 3 years 19? I can see that too.

But he is either getting ~6M or he's getting 7 years. Not both.

LOL. Hat in hand. Poor Kenny! Let's talk market value.

$4.25 million for 6 years for a 20 point winger in Justin Abdelkader.
$3.85 million for 4 more years for a 15 point winger in Darren Helm.
$5.25 million for 5 more years for a 40 point center in Frans Nielsen.

I wonder who held a gun to Holland's head and forced him to go hat in hand to get fleeced by Helm and Abby?

Not sure where the 7 year term is coming from. Craig Custance reported that Tatar was looking for a 4-5 year deal. He'll look for that same deal next summer when he hits free agency. To quote Custance "it appears completely reasonable for Tatar to get at least $6 million on the open market if he's only looking for a deal that maxed out at 5 years...one NHL team executive concurred that the $6 million price tag on Tatar in the open market wasn't that far off."

 

[Wood Stick]

Tatar is one of the few players on the team that are actually fun and entertaining to watch, and some people still plan on watching this team while it's bad.

If he's flipped for a 1st at the deadline, I'll live with that, but it will just make this hard to watch team even harder to watch.

Tatar can score highlight reel goals. Abby and Helm win board battles. We're paying for one at the expense of the other.

Tatar has an exciting style. Last year it was meh because of the shoulder injury but I think he still led the team in goals, no? I'm still not over 15/16 playoffs when Blash double shifted the Z and Dats lines (Helm-D-Richards) and the fourth line as well and left AA and Tatar out when they were creating more than anyone.

Craig Custance mentioned wingers vs centres at the deadline and how wingers don't get as much. I think he is better than what Ladd was though and that got a first plus Dano.

Helm wins battles, skates into multiple others or throws it back around the boards creating zip.

 

[Gilhuleh]

Tatar has an exciting style. Last year it was meh because of the shoulder injury but I think he still led the team in goals, no? I'm still not over 15/16 playoffs when Blash double shifted the Z and Dats lines (Helm-D-Richards) and the fourth line as well and left AA and Tatar out when they were creating more than anyone.

Craig Custance mentioned wingers vs centres at the deadline and how wingers don't get as much. I think he is better than what Ladd was though and that got a first plus Dano.

Helm wins battles, skates into multiple others or throws it back around the boards creating zip.

I would love for Tatar to fetch a first round pick at the deadline but it's so hard to tell if he will. A lot of people thought Vanek might fetch one but all we got for him was a 3rd. You just don't see that many teams trading away their 1st at the deadline anymore, especially in a good draft year.

 

[PelagicJoe]

I would love for Tatar to fetch a first round pick at the deadline but it's so hard to tell if he will. A lot of people thought Vanek might fetch one but all we got for him was a 3rd. You just don't see that many teams trading away their 1st at the deadline anymore, especially in a good draft year.

Tatar is younger than Vanek, so I would expect either a 1st, or a 2nd + a borderline worthless prospect or Dylan McIlrath type player.

 

[lhsgolf19]

I can handle it... not terrible

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You mean like when he couldn't get to the table fast enough to give Abdelkader 7 years? Not for the same AAV, no, but most definitely way too early (November 2015) and at least 2 years too long, even prior to this last debacle of a season for Justin (and nearly everybody else).

A 7 year deal for an above average scoring winger that's stayed relatively healthy is still too much. But it's downright sensible, compared to giving it to a grinder (whose style of play will impact his longevity a lot more than Tatar's will).

Yes, exactly that.

But just because he's an idiot once doesn't mean he should contemplate for one second extending the incompetence by repeating the mistake.

Again, the Abdelkader contract was abysmal, stupid, moronic, any adjective you want to use... it's also written and the ink is dried on it.

You can ***** and ***** and ***** till the cows come home, or you can move on and manage your roster. They love Abdelkader too much. Ok. Doesn't mean that you rush to sign a better player who still isn't elite for ~30-50% more per year for the same time period.

Abdelkader's contract was stupid as hell. If they give Tatar 7 years at 6M per, THAT would be stupid as hell.

You shouldn't base all future contract decisions around it, as it should rightfully be an outlier.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If they give Tatar 7 years at 6M per, THAT would be stupid as hell.

Again, no idea where you are coming up with 7 years. They just agreed on a 4 year deal. The only side that could have been remotely interested in a 7 year deal would be Holland, he just gave one away to Abby.

 

[Winger98]

Again, no idea where you are coming up with 7 years. They just agreed on a 4 year deal. The only side that could have been remotely interested in a 7 year deal would be Holland, he just gave one away to Abby.

Tatar was reportedly looking for at least six years originally. Between that and Holland usually being generous on term, 7 years didn't seem crazy.