Reset the rebuild

[Do Make Say Think]

Two unfortunate truths

-We've had two major players bail on the team in Spezza and Alfredsson
-Management keeps giving younger players more responsibilities and moving them up the depth chart thinking that they will live up to expectations rather than have those player, through their play, force management's hand and, outside of Ceci, simply hasn't worked

I'm honestly starting to think we're going to need to accept that the rebuild has failed to meet it's target of three years and prolong the whole thing

Click to read more...

 

[Super Cake]

And what do you suggest we do to reset the rebuild? Trade everybody and start over?

 

[HavlatMach9]

there is no one rebuild formula. we are in a rebuild

 

[Senscore]

Our initial rebuild was half-assed and we're going to go along limping through every season until major changes are made.

Does that mean a new rebuild? Maybe. Maybe not. But the team as it is does not appear conducive for long term success.

 

[albator71]

pa·tient
(pā′shənt)
adj.
1. Bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance with calmness.
2. Marked by or exhibiting calm endurance of pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance.
3. Tolerant; understanding: an unfailingly patient leader and guide.
4. Persevering; constant: With patient industry, she revived the failing business and made it thrive.
5. Capable of calmly awaiting an outcome or result; not hasty or impulsive.
6. Capable of bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance: "My uncle Toby was a man patient of injuries" (Laurence Sterne).

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And what do you suggest we do to reset the rebuild? Trade everybody and start over?

Adjust the goals

Management keeps saying "player X is ready to move up" and it hasn't worked: Turris, Cowen and Zibanejad are being asked too do to much (although Cowen has been fine this year)

I think we need to accept that we need to have the players force themselves up the lineup rather than being given promotions because the budget or because our top veterans bailed/regressed

there is no one rebuild formula. we are in a rebuild

I know but we were told the rebuild was a three year plan and I think it's fair to say the whole thing has gone sideways

It's mostly about adjusting the goals, expectations and, in suit, adjusting how the team sees itself progression

At this point in time making the playoffs seems like an impossible task, we aren't one or two players away from being a bubble team

pa·tient
(pā′shənt)
adj.
1. Bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance with calmness.
2. Marked by or exhibiting calm endurance of pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance.
3. Tolerant; understanding: an unfailingly patient leader and guide.
4. Persevering; constant: With patient industry, she revived the failing business and made it thrive.
5. Capable of calmly awaiting an outcome or result; not hasty or impulsive.
6. Capable of bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance: "My uncle Toby was a man patient of injuries" (Laurence Sterne).

We were told there was a three year plan in 2011. It hasn't worked.

I'm not arguing we should "blow it up" but rather that management accept that the plan has not bore the fruits we hoped it would and adjust to that reality rather than keep trying to force things

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

We just have to hope for some savy trades and find some top 6 talent in the draft.

 

[Baby Ryan]

Murray thinks we're done rebuilding, but we still are and have been rebuilding has always been my take on it.

Got a boatload of young, talented guys in the system and on the roster who are still getting games under their belt.

Can Micklebot or somebody pull up that stat of games played for the Sens roster?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

We just have to hope for some savy trades and find some top 6 talent in the draft.

Unless you draft in the top 5 you aren't likely to get a player who can go from being drafted straight into the NHL

We don't have much to offer in trades anymore (Prince and Puempel are decent prospects, not much more), especially now that our first rounder should be considered sacred

 

[Benjamin]

pa·tient
(pā′shənt)
adj.
1. Bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance with calmness.
2. Marked by or exhibiting calm endurance of pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance.
3. Tolerant; understanding: an unfailingly patient leader and guide.
4. Persevering; constant: With patient industry, she revived the failing business and made it thrive.
5. Capable of calmly awaiting an outcome or result; not hasty or impulsive.
6. Capable of bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance: "My uncle Toby was a man patient of injuries" (Laurence Sterne).

I have the patience to go from low end mediocrity to high end mediocrity. Its well worth the wait.

 

[Six Assets]

We never had a rebuild

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Unless you draft in the top 5 you aren't likely to get a player who can go from being drafted straight into the NHL

We don't have much to offer in trades anymore (Prince and Puempel are decent prospects, not much more), especially now that our first rounder should be considered sacred

Dont mean immediate help. Sens need to land their Schenn for JVR type of trade or find their Palat, Nyquist, Tatar or johnson type player.

 

[DoughtyFace]

-Management keeps giving younger players more responsibilities and moving them up the depth chart thinking that they will live up to expectations rather than have those player, through their play, force management's hand

I agree with the first part of this, but here's the issue with your logic. You want players to push up and earn a first line role, this assumes there is already a 1a forward to compete with. Sens lost basically their whole first line (who they drafted).

So to replace the first line assests that were lost there is really 2 options. Develop the talent internally (takes time/skill/scouting and a little luck), or go out and buy 2 first liners (which the team will undoubtedly far overpay to have them come to a non-playoff team). I don't think this team is going to spend any cash, Uncle Euge needs to keep them dollars in his bank. So we wait....

 

[guyzeur]

Dont mean immediate help. Sens need to land their Schenn for JVR type of trade or find their Palat, Nyquist, Tatar or johnson type player.

You mean more like those....

Schenn for JVR: Turris?

Palat, Nyquist, Tatar or Johnson: Hoffman, Stone?

 

[Micklebot]

Adjust the goals

Ok, I'm with you here. Goal should be development over placement in the standings.

Management keeps saying "player X is ready to move up" and it hasn't worked: Turris, Cowen and Zibanejad are being asked too do to much (although Cowen has been fine this year)

Asked to do too much in order to attain what goal? Make the playoffs? I agree. Continue to develop? I'm not so sure. Zibanejad, Cowen, Turris are continuing to develop, being given good mins and opportunities to expand their games. Is their current role hurting their development? I don't think so, but you are welcome to disagree with me here.

I think we need to accept that we need to have the players force themselves up the lineup rather than being given promotions because the budget or because our top veterans bailed/regressed

Ok, so you want to bring in Vets who will presumably shelter our younger players, and make us a better team now? That doesn't sound like reseting the rebuild. Are you suggesting something else? Maybe shake up the lineup and put the vets we have in more prominent roles: Phillips on the top pair, Legwand in the top 6, Michalek in the top 6? I don't think that helps our young players develop.

I know but we were told the rebuild was a three year plan and I think it's fair to say the whole thing has gone sideways

Agreed.

It's mostly about adjusting the goals, expectations and, in suit, adjusting how the team sees itself progression

At this point in time making the playoffs seems like an impossible task, we aren't one or two players away from being a bubble team

Well, I'm not sure about that. Two players (a 1st line center and a top pair D) would do a world of good for this team. It all depends who the players are. We aren't a Perron and a Petry away from being a contender by any means, but we aren't as far from being a bubble team as you suggest. Methot's been out all year, and we've been pretty close to being a bubble team until recently.

We were told there was a three year plan in 2011. It hasn't worked.

I'm not arguing we should "blow it up" but rather that management accept that the plan has not bore the fruits we hoped it would and adjust to that reality rather than keep trying to force things

Agreed; for the 3rd season in a row, unexpected turns have put what was expected to be a bubble team at best behind the eightball from the get go. We aren't good enough to overcome these kind of events, even if we managed it one year. So what's the solution other than some additional patience? We are already an extremely young inexperienced team, so playing out the season fulfills one goal (developing our talent). What else should we do, jettison vets, we have none of particular value.

The only thing I don't want to see this year is letting Methot walk away to free agency. If we re-sign him, great, if not, trade him. Oh, yeah, and we also should trade for short term solutions.

Any other moves, like trading Anderson, Michalek, Smith, Neil, Legwand,Condra, Greening or whatever are fine so long as the return matches what we give up. No need to dump players for the sake of dumping them. Anderson should take a lot to pry out of here, and less and less as you move down the list (feel free to disagree with my order, I'm not married to it).

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

You mean more like those....

Schenn for JVR: Turris?

Palat, Nyquist, Tatar or Johnson: Hoffman, Stone?

Turris is not the same quality of player as JVR imo and the trade was fair. Schenn for JVR was a straight up rip off. Hoffman and stone arent the same quality of players as palat, Nyquist or johnson yet imo.

If youd like a different example then i'd say the phaneuf trade which was just a whole bunch of garbage for a number 2 dman.

 

[aragorn]

Unfortunately this team is not going to be making the playoffs this yr & I now agree they should make a reset to rebuild. I think it is obvious now that coaching wasn't the problem, the team is playing slightly better under Cameron but the result is basically the same. This team isn't good enough & need different players, now the question is which players need to go & which players they should build around.

1. Trade Anderson to Minny for Charlie Coyle or their 2015 1st rd pick, I doubt you get both.

2. Trade all of these guys Phillips, Legwand, Michalek, Greening, Condra, Wiercioch & maybe Smith, if you can find someone who will take them. Those you cannot trade, waive to buy them out & get out of these contracts that are going nowhere.

3. I tend to think that at some point in the future that Ottawa will end up with a brand new management team from top to bottom. These are the players this management team thought would make this team a playoff contender & it has not worked out, in fact, it has been a dismal failure. While the timing may not be the best now at some point a new management team will be required to change the direction of this group & give fans some hope for the future.

4. Make up your mind with Methot, either sign him long term or trade him by the deadline but do something with him. He still looks like a player to me that could help this team but at the same time he could have enough value to return a high pick or very good prospect. IMO Anderson & Methot could be our best chips to trade at the deadline who can return the best prospects & picks we could hope for especially in this coming deep draft.

5. Decide which young players you see as players long term & those who may not & start looking to move whichever guys are no longer part of this team's future. Package these young players that are not seen as future players in Ottawa along with the vets above we want to get rid of could help to make a trade possible. Bingo doesn't seem to be going anywhere this yr either so making moves won't necessarily hurt them all that much either.

6. Start looking at some of the young guys in Ottawa, Puempel, D. Grant, Robinson, Prince etc... have a look at them in the NHL to see if they have any future with the team. If not, trade some.

7. Try & build as good a team as possible not just in Ottawa but in Bingo as well. Look at the kind of players they are drafting & see if that should change.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I'll just respond to the parts we might not see eye-to-eye or that I maybe could have been clearer with

Asked to do too much in order to attain what goal? Make the playoffs? I agree. Continue to develop? I'm not so sure. Zibanejad, Cowen, Turris are continuing to develop, being given good mins and opportunities to expand their games. Is their current role hurting their development? I don't think so, but you are welcome to disagree with me here.

True, I probably should have expanded a bit on the "too much" part, you make a very valid point.

To me I don't think Turris will be getting much better, he'll never be a top line centre so I think he's currently miscast: it might not be hurting his development but we are not maximizing his value to the team by asking him too do something he cannot do.

Iz Zibanejad's development being hurt by forcing him into a top 6 role? Maybe, maybe not; we won't be able to say until it's too late or he's turned into a bonafide top line guy (which we know is the goal). It's just that last year we both handed Cowen and Weircioch top 4 duties and they weren't ready for it and it's happening again: it's a disturbing trend.

The team is a victim of circumstances but it's disheartening to see management make the same mistake they did last year: I believe it's important to have the players earn more minutes and bigger roles rather than being handed them. Of course it isn't always that easy but we clearly want to emulate the Detroit model and yet we are skipping a crucial step they are beholden to: young players have to earn their positions.

Ok, so you want to bring in Vets who will presumably shelter our younger players, and make us a better team now? That doesn't sound like reseting the rebuild. Are you suggesting something else? Maybe shake up the lineup and put the vets we have in more prominent roles: Phillips on the top pair, Legwand in the top 6, Michalek in the top 6? I don't think that helps our young players develop.

Reseting might not have been the best word to use but yes, I think that bringing in players to help shelter our younger players and keep them honest is going to be key going forward: trial by fire might not ruin players but I don't think it's the best way to improve as quickly as possible which is what the goal was with a three year retool or whatever you want to call what we went through.

 

[jbeck5]

I'd like management to admit they're still in rebuilding mode and not give this "our team is a good team that will make the playoffs" bs.

I don't want to see stupid hemsky trades. I wanted us to deal the Phillips and michaleks at the previous deadlines because I didn't feel we had enough in the pipelines to be a good Stanley cup contender. Instead, we're seeing management deal picks and prospects for more proven assets, and still don't make the playoffs. It cancels out the rebuilding moves you just made previously.

The Ryan deal has worked out ok as noesen and silf seem to have plateaud or had injury issues that have halted their development.

But ideally, you make those trades when you've made the playoffs a few times in a row, but can't make that next step to home ice advantage, so you're looking to make a push. That means spending money. Then you bring in your star to push you over the top.

I'm happy with how its turned out so far with the Ryan deal. But we gotta have management decide what we are and do it. None of this foot halfway in the door. Either try really hard yo contend, or try really hard to rebuild. I don't think these alternating moves are working very well.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

And what do you suggest we do to reset the rebuild? Trade everybody and start over?

1)Trade Anderson to Minnesota for Kuemper.
2)Trade Neil for futures
3)Trade Phillips for futures
4)Do the impossible and make a pitch to Toronto for either Cody Franson or Morgan Rielly; the former can make a nice stopgap for us and the latter could be a great future piece.

The goaltender regression should put us in top five pick for the upcoming draft. You get rid of guys that should have gone ages ago and at least get an asset for them.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The Ryan deal has worked out ok as noesen and silf seem to have plateaud or had injury issues that have halted their development.

But ideally, you make those trades when you've made the playoffs a few times in a row, but can't make that next step to home ice advantage, so you're looking to make a push. That means spending money. Then you bring in your star to push you over the top.

I'm happy with how its turned out so far with the Ryan deal. But we gotta have management decide what we are and do it. None of this foot halfway in the door. Either try really hard yo contend, or try really hard to rebuild. I don't think these alternating moves are working very well.

How the players we sent the other way are performing has little bearing on how the deal worked out for us: we got a top line winger, that's all that really matters

Also we had made the playoffs a few years in a row when we made the trade for Ryan

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

A strong franchise is always in "rebuild" mode. That's the key in Detroit.

Always have a high focus on not only drafting the best talent possible, but strong focus on developing that talent.

Serious limit on "legacy" signings. Outside of Cleary, it's hard to point a finger at any guy on the roster that really should've have received their contracts. If you're no longer good enough, you're no long a Wing.



I think the biggest problem we had was the Pesky Sens lockout year where we had too much success. Set expectations way too high and screwed up both our drafting and our systems. MacLean went into survival mode and abandoned our original system and went into rope-a-dope mode to grind out some lucky wins. Bad thing to do on a team full of young kids trying to learn an NHL system. Of course, the following year we try to go back to the original system and the kids are confused. Guys are stuck, even this year, between two different ways of playing. No consistency.

 

[albator71]

I have an easy way to help speed up the "rebuilt" Melnyk needs to spend some money that would go a long way to improve this team.

 

[ColinM]

How are we supposed to dump the Greening and Michalek's of our team when we are already at the floor? Unfortunately we are stuck with some of this junk in order to stay at the floor.

 

[ColinM]

I checked out nhlnumbers.com and it is depressing to notice how many of our over 27 year old players are signed after this season.