News Article: Red Wings' Mantha, Athanasiou respond to 'poke-and-hope' criticism

[Redder Winger]

Only if you assume production scales linearly or close to it, which is ridiculous.

P/60 needs the context of PPG, QOC, QOT. Just because you score 1 point in 10 minutes of IT doesn't mean you'll score 2 points in 20 minutes. If you're playing lower minutes, chances are that's because you're not as trusted by the coach, rightly or wrongly. That means you're likely facing worse competition which means you're more likely to win the matchup.

Ignore the numbers til you turn blue in the face, if that's what you want.

But know this.
But when the Red Wings were great -
07-08
Zetterberg 2.54
Datsyuk 2.49
Cleary 2.15
Hudlelr 1.92
Holmstrom 1.62
Samuelsson 1.56
Filppula 1.44
Franze 1.23
Kopeecky 1.07
Maltby .84
Draper .7

08-09
Datsyuk 2.78
Hossa 2.67
Holmstrom 2.15
Franzen 2.08
Hudler 1.98
Zetterberg 1.92
Clearly 1.77
Filppula 1.71
Samuelsson 1.23
Kopecky 1.13
Draoer 1,06
Maltby 1.0


When we were a great team, we scored at 5 on 5.
Zetterberg and Abdelkader's production level today is somewhere around Michael Samuelsson.
Glendening is aroiund Maltby when the wheels fell off.

Athanasiou, Larkin and Mantha, Bertuzzi, and Frk around that Hudler level.

If you want to chalk it up to matchups that all five young guys are outproducing the old guys ... well ...
Consider that Mantha has spent much of the year with Zetterberg.
Consider that AA has basically the same zone starts as Zetterberg.

Most of the Quality of comp stats I look at tell me that Zetterberg and Nyquist have easier matchups too, with Glendening and Nielsen getting tougher assignments.

Granted - there are other numbers.
GF/GA
CF/CA

The Red Wings youngsters are a mixed bag on these numbers.

But all I see from Red Wings fans in this thread is loud support for yet another public criticism of the youngsters -- and very little recognition that it's the veterans - the well paid veterans -- who've failed to live up to their obligations.

 

[Frk It]

Only if you assume production scales linearly or close to it, which is ridiculous.

P/60 needs the context of PPG, QOC, QOT. Just because you score 1 point in 10 minutes of IT doesn't mean you'll score 2 points in 20 minutes. If you're playing lower minutes, chances are that's because you're not as trusted by the coach, rightly or wrongly. That means you're likely facing worse competition which means you're more likely to win the matchup.

Yeah, you seriously need more context. AA will probably always have good P/60 like Hudler did. Guys that play 15-16 min a night and get easy match-ups and feast on other team's lower lines.

Deploy AA like Larkin and see what happens. Or vice versa, and watch Larkin's numbers shoot through the roof.

 

[Redder Winger]

Yeah, you seriously need more context. AA will probably always have good P/60 like Hudler did. Guys that play 15-16 min a night and get easy match-ups and feast on other team's lower lines.

Deploy AA like Larkin and see what happens. Or vice versa, and watch Larkin's numbers shoot through the roof.

WTF are you talking about.
AA has spent a lot of the year with Larkin?
Moreover. When AA plays 18+ minutes, he's been a big producer. 17 points in 14 games.

 

[Frk It]

WTF are you talking about.
AA has spent a lot of the year with Larkin?
Moreover. When AA plays 18+ minutes, he's been a big producer. 17 points in 14 games.

Is he playing center? Is he positioning himself as last man back, or leaking out for breakaways?

Even if he's playing with Larkin, he's not being asked to do what Larkin does. And Larkin doing what Larkin does is why coaches will always play him more.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Ignore the numbers til you turn blue in the face, if that's what you want.

But know this.
But when the Red Wings were great -
07-08
Zetterberg 2.54
Datsyuk 2.49
Cleary 2.15
Hudlelr 1.92
Holmstrom 1.62
Samuelsson 1.56
Filppula 1.44
Franze 1.23
Kopeecky 1.07
Maltby .84
Draper .7

08-09
Datsyuk 2.78
Hossa 2.67
Holmstrom 2.15
Franzen 2.08
Hudler 1.98
Zetterberg 1.92
Clearly 1.77
Filppula 1.71
Samuelsson 1.23
Kopecky 1.13
Draoer 1,06
Maltby 1.0


When we were a great team, we scored at 5 on 5.
Zetterberg and Abdelkader's production level today is somewhere around Michael Samuelsson.
Glendening is aroiund Maltby when the wheels fell off.

Athanasiou, Larkin and Mantha, Bertuzzi, and Frk around that Hudler level.

If you want to chalk it up to matchups that all five young guys are outproducing the old guys ... well ...
Consider that Mantha has spent much of the year with Zetterberg.
Consider that AA has basically the same zone starts as Zetterberg.

Most of the Quality of comp stats I look at tell me that Zetterberg and Nyquist have easier matchups too, with Glendening and Nielsen getting tougher assignments.

Granted - there are other numbers.
GF/GA
CF/CA

The Red Wings youngsters are a mixed bag on these numbers.

But all I see from Red Wings fans in this thread is loud support for yet another public criticism of the youngsters -- and very little recognition that it's the veterans - the well paid veterans -- who've failed to live up to their obligations.

This is pretty cherry picked though, as are 99.9% of stats that people are going to bring up in any thread. Even if there are fair stats, the message will be twisted in the author's favor.

"Consider that AA has basically the same zone starts as Zetterberg." Doesn't this quote completely gloss over the fact that one of the arguments presented is that AA is facing favorable lines? Sure his oZS% is similar to Zetterberg's, but is it not also more reasonable to assume that AA is probably not lining up against the shutdown line or the opponent's top talent because AA's lines are usually viewed as not as great of a threat at this point? My assumption could obviously be completely wrong, but all of these stats need to be taken with a grain of salt and compared evenly across all players otherwise we are just dealing with biased data.

As for looking at the P/60, comparing to the cup caliber teams of the past is almost just confirming what we already know, right? This is a bad team, and the past teams were some of the best in the league at the time.

What doesn't get lost in all of this is that the veterans have either regressed substantially to unacceptable levels considering their pay, or they were never good enough to warrant that pay to begin with. The youth movement needs to be trusted a bit more. Maybe AA and co. can continue producing at higher levels with the increased ice time, but the only way we will ever know is if we actually let them play increased ice time.

 

[kliq]

What ever it is, the younger, cheaper guys are at the top of point production.
The older, expensive guys are at the bottom.

We're a last place team quality team, overplaying veterans in many cases. Underplaying kids in many cases.
And constantly blaming the kids while the veterans are never held to any standards.

Where are the ****ing stories about the captain calling out out Kronwall or Helm?
Where's the story about Blashill calling out the captain? Or Abdelkader? Or Nielsen.

No such stories exist.
In other towns, with real coaches, you see leaders and veterans get benched.
Brent "3 Cups" Seabrook was ****ing scratched.
Jason Spezza was scratched.

We criticize the young kids in Detroit. That's "winning culture."

So ****ing clueless.

The kids are more important then these players. I equate it to have a student who is a genius, and you are extra hard on them because you see so much potential. I applaud Zetterberg for calling out the kids, they are the future of this team and their development is crucial to our success. Its not even like he called anybody out by name anyways, what HSJ says means nothing to me.

Helm and Abby are what they are, I am not saying that there should be no accountability there, but its not the same nor should it be.

 

[Redder Winger]

This is pretty cherry picked though, as are 99.9% of stats that people are going to bring up in any thread. Even if there are fair stats, the message will be twisted in the author's favor.

"Consider that AA has basically the same zone starts as Zetterberg." Doesn't this quote completely gloss over the fact that one of the arguments presented is that AA is facing favorable lines? Sure his oZS% is similar to Zetterberg's, but is it not also more reasonable to assume that AA is probably not lining up against the shutdown line or the opponent's top talent because AA's lines are usually viewed as not as great of a threat at this point? My assumption could obviously be completely wrong, but all of these stats need to be taken with a grain of salt and compared evenly across all players otherwise we are just dealing with biased data.

As for looking at the P/60, comparing to the cup caliber teams of the past is almost just confirming what we already know, right? This is a bad team, and the past teams were some of the best in the league at the time.

What doesn't get lost in all of this is that the veterans have either regressed substantially to unacceptable levels considering their pay, or they were never good enough to warrant that pay to begin with. The youth movement needs to be trusted a bit more. Maybe AA and co. can continue producing at higher levels with the increased ice time, but the only way we will ever know is if we actually let them play increased ice time.

Show me where I'm glossing over that Z has tougher opponents, because I don't see it. I mean, anecdotally, you might be right. AA has spent about 1/4th of the year on Line 4, where, presumably, he'd face lesser opponents.
But I can't find the QUALCOMP stat to show it.

The other problem is this - Mantha has spent a lot of the year with Z. Why is his production better?
This isn't only about AA.

It's about the kids, top to bottom, outproducing the veterans.

This isn't just a general trend.
Every RFA aged player with more than 300 minutes produces more than every single UFA age player with more than 300 minutes.

AA 2.04
Bert 1.89
Mantha 1.87
Larkin 1.87
Frk 1.71
------UFA Age---
Abdelkader 1.51
Zetterberg 1.41
Nyquist 1.44
Helm 1.23
Nielsen 1.1
Glendening 1.1
Tatar .86

That's an pretty shocking list of numbers, if you ask me.

Again - scoring is not the only thing in hockey.
Things get a lot more scattered considering other stats.

It's great that HSJ and Ansar Khan can go ask AA and Mantha about sucking at defense and not giving a strong effort.

I'd kill for a reporter with the stones to ask Zetterberg why his production sucks so much.
Or to ask Abdelkader or Nielsen or Helm what he's doing to earn his contract.

 

[Redder Winger]

The kids are more important then these players. I equate it to have a student who is a genius, and you are extra hard on them because you see so much potential. I applaud Zetterberg for calling out the kids, they are the future of this team and their development is crucial to our success. Its not even like he called anybody out by name anyways, what HSJ says means nothing to me.

Helm and Abby are what they are, I am not saying that there should be no accountability there, but its not the same nor should it be.

But what Z said was obvious. And to me, he pretty specifically called out Mantha.
What HSJ might not matter to you. But that's what this thread is about.
So HSJ goes and interviews the kids about it the next day.
They get slagged in the press again.

Do you that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy when they consider their contract options?

If I'm Mantha, the only way I sign a long-term deal is massive overpayment, at this point. Same thing with AA.

Frankly, if these guys develop, they're developing despite the Red Wings.
They have virtually no defensemen to get them the puck. There are almost zero forwards on the team who can pass them the puck. And they get ripped in the press by their coach, captain and team president on a regular basis.
All while being lectured about "winning culture."

 

[jkutswings]

I largely ignore stats like P/60 because they're entirely one dimensional, while the notion of helping a team win hockey games - and build something to challenge for a championship - involves a lot more than just the score sheet.

Don't get me wrong; I think this franchise has gone a bit too far in the other direction, and has become too obsessed with some of the "complete player" attributes. But if Player A scores 65 points via 18 minutes ATOI, while doing little else, and Player B scores 50 points via 18 minutes ATOI, while killing penalties, and winning draws, and back checking non-stop against top opponents...Player B will make an overall larger contribution to helping the team, but P/60 won't capture that whatsoever.

 

[kliq]

But what Z said was obvious. And to me, he pretty specifically called out Mantha.
What HSJ might not matter to you. But that's what this thread is about.
So HSJ goes and interviews the kids about it the next day.
They get slagged in the press again.

Do you that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy when they consider their contract options?

If I'm Mantha, the only way I sign a long-term deal is massive overpayment, at this point. Same thing with AA.

Frankly, if these guys develop, they're developing despite the Red Wings.
They have virtually no defensemen to get them the puck. There are almost zero forwards on the team who can pass them the puck. And they get ripped in the press by their coach, captain and team president on a regular basis.
All while being lectured about "winning culture."

But you're not Mantha, so how you feel about the way he’s being developed and how he feels are likely not the same. You’re projecting how you would take it onto him.

He’s a professional athete and from what I have read a pretty accountable/down to earth person, he seems to have thick skin which is a good thing. I don’t like the idea of a player having to feel “warm and fuzzy” inside when it comes to how they expect to be treated by their team.

Again, those that you see potential in, you are harder on. I’m sorry you don’t see that.

 

[Redder Winger]

Again, those that you see potential in, you are harder on. I’m sorry you don’t see that.

Like the Red Wings were hard on Dekeyser?
On Larkin?

 

[Redder Winger]

I largely ignore stats like P/60 because they're entirely one dimensional, while the notion of helping a team win hockey games - and build something to challenge for a championship - involves a lot more than just the score sheet..

Do you ignore goals? Assists? Points?
Because that's all p/60 is.

 

[kliq]

Like the Red Wings were hard on Dekeyser?
On Larkin?

I don’t hear Mantha complaining, not sure why this bothers you so much.

 

[Redder Winger]

I don’t hear Mantha complaining, not sure why this bothers you so much.

You're changing the subject.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Show me where I'm glossing over that Z has tougher opponents, because I don't see it. I mean, anecdotally, you might be right. AA has spent about 1/4th of the year on Line 4, where, presumably, he'd face lesser opponents.
But I can't find the QUALCOMP stat to show it.

The other problem is this - Mantha has spent a lot of the year with Z. Why is his production better?
This isn't only about AA.

It's about the kids, top to bottom, outproducing the veterans.

This isn't just a general trend.
Every RFA aged player with more than 300 minutes produces more than every single UFA age player with more than 300 minutes.

AA 2.04
Bert 1.89
Mantha 1.87
Larkin 1.87
Frk 1.71
------UFA Age---
Abdelkader 1.51
Zetterberg 1.41
Nyquist 1.44
Helm 1.23
Nielsen 1.1
Glendening 1.1
Tatar .86

That's an pretty shocking list of numbers, if you ask me.

Again - scoring is not the only thing in hockey.
Things get a lot more scattered considering other stats.

It's great that HSJ and Ansar Khan can go ask AA and Mantha about sucking at defense and not giving a strong effort.

I'd kill for a reporter with the stones to ask Zetterberg why his production sucks so much.
Or to ask Abdelkader or Nielsen or Helm what he's doing to earn his contract.

I think that reporter would get laughed out of the locker room. Stupid question, easy answer. "Hey Mr./Mrs. reporter. I'm 37 years old and I've been giving my all to this team for almost twenty years. My body has aged, broken down and lost a step or four. This is what happens at the tail end of a long career. I'm riding off into the sunset and handing the keys to the kingdom over to the next generation of players. Now as a proud Red Wing, am I supposed to hand them the keys and say 'Here kid, do whatever the f*** you want. Sure Yzerman, Lidstrom etc drilled it into me what it means to be a Red Wing, how to play as a Red Wing, but I'm not going to do that, I want you kids to have fun, score crazy high goals, rack up highlight reels and just play willy-nilly, selfish, lazy offense-only hockey cause darn it, that's what you like to do and that's what's easiest for you."

Obviously that's not the mentality Z has; he cares about the team beyond his years here, he's a true leader and obviously takes a great deal of pride in the locker room and the on ice product. He was handed the team by highly respected leaders in pretty pristine condition. Now, Zetterberg has no control over the talent assembled on the ice, nor does he have control over who is wearing the winged wheel in that locker room. He does have control over holding players accountable, especially those who have the talent to be leaders and need a little push to get there. I'm sure he looks around the locker room at the next generation of Red Wings and shakes his head when he sees them not seeming to care that they are half-assing it around the ice.

Around this time last year it was a pretty constant theme on this forum that it was sad that a 36 year old with some serious back injury issues was still leading this team by a wide margin in all offensive categories. The repeated cry was that these youngsters need to step up, take the reins from Hank, become high minute producers. Well Hank is another year older and, as expected, his numbers are starting to go down. Thankfully, we are seeing some glimmer of hope from some of our youngsters. Of course they are out pacing him in points, what the hell took them so long? Only Larkin has more points than Hank, Mantha should, AA should be closer. I'm not sure how many times and how many ways this needs to be explained for you to grasp the underlying point of Hank's words. Some people just like to argue and don't care about right or wrong, maybe that's the thing here. I don't mind, I enjoy shooting out praise at Hank and I like to think the kids will benefit from having played with and listened to him for the years they have with him.

 

[kliq]

You're changing the subject.

I’m simply respondong to you. You are the one who said “if I was Mantha” I just continued on that note.

 

[BinCookin]

very well said Nut.

Most people understand this.

Also Redder, Look at +/- stats... tell me who are our best defensive forwards?

 

[jkutswings]

Do you ignore goals? Assists? Points?
Because that's all p/60 is.

That's a thoroughly ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said.

Points per 60 is a normalization of scoring... That completely ignores what type of minutes are played, or what competition they are played against, or any activities performed while on the ice that aren't goals or assists.

Yes, points absolutely count. But using ONLY points, without the context, is like saying there's no difference between buying a loaf of bread and stealing one, because at the end of the day, you have one loaf of bread either way.

The most impactful players of all are guys who score well, AND do all the other stuff.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

But what Z said was obvious. And to me, he pretty specifically called out Mantha.
What HSJ might not matter to you. But that's what this thread is about.
So HSJ goes and interviews the kids about it the next day.
They get slagged in the press again.

Do you that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy when they consider their contract options?

If I'm Mantha, the only way I sign a long-term deal is massive overpayment, at this point. Same thing with AA.

Frankly, if these guys develop, they're developing despite the Red Wings.
They have virtually no defensemen to get them the puck. There are almost zero forwards on the team who can pass them the puck. And they get ripped in the press by their coach, captain and team president on a regular basis.
All while being lectured about "winning culture."

Every single time that Mantha has been “slagged” in the media, he’s immediately come out in the next interview to say “yeah, I need to better.” One specific mention was when Z came down on him specifically (not this time, another earlier time) and he said, Hank’s right. I gotta do more.

When he got called “spare parts” he didn’t piss and moan and when Joakim Andersson got called up instead of him you didn’t hear a peep. He played harder at the A level to get his call up to the National league.

Mantha is a streaky scorer and pretty obviously gets complacent when he’s playing well. Quite clearly, he works best when he’s got someone in his face grinding his gears... not being coddled by having unlimited minutes and unlimited latitude to do what he wants.

Same with Tatar before he was traded. Tatar would get complacent and turn bad. And then Babcock would go red ass on him and all of a sudden, Tatar would turn into a fantastic player.

If you ever actually read what Blashill, Holland, and the Wings brass say about AA (in particular, they say it about Mantha too), you’ll see that they love the **** our of him as a player. They love what he is capable of and think he can be a truly special player. But you can’t just gift wrap minutes to a guy if he doesn’t earn them. And no, having a good p/60 does not constitute earning them. It is a part of it, but a guy with AA’s measurables and hockey IQ should be doing so much more with his talent. I mean, how many guys in the league are faster? Not very many. He’s not a small guy by any means... so where is his physical play? He’s got great hands, so where is the defensive stickwork?

AA has a world of talent that he doesn’t seem interested in getting better at using.

 

[Redder Winger]

Every single time that Mantha has been “slagged” in the media, he’s immediately come out in the next interview to say “yeah, I need to better.” One specific mention was when Z came down on him specifically (not this time, another earlier time) and he said, Hank’s right. I gotta do more.

When he got called “spare parts” he didn’t piss and moan and when Joakim Andersson got called up instead of him you didn’t hear a peep. He played harder at the A level to get his call up to the National league.

Mantha is a streaky scorer and pretty obviously gets complacent when he’s playing well. Quite clearly, he works best when he’s got someone in his face grinding his gears... not being coddled by having unlimited minutes and unlimited latitude to do what he wants.

Same with Tatar before he was traded. Tatar would get complacent and turn bad. And then Babcock would go red ass on him and all of a sudden, Tatar would turn into a fantastic player.

If you ever actually read what Blashill, Holland, and the Wings brass say about AA (in particular, they say it about Mantha too), you’ll see that they love the **** our of him as a player. They love what he is capable of and think he can be a truly special player. But you can’t just gift wrap minutes to a guy if he doesn’t earn them. And no, having a good p/60 does not constitute earning them. It is a part of it, but a guy with AA’s measurables and hockey IQ should be doing so much more with his talent. I mean, how many guys in the league are faster? Not very many. He’s not a small guy by any means... so where is his physical play? He’s got great hands, so where is the defensive stickwork?

AA has a world of talent that he doesn’t seem interested in getting better at using.

What's a guy going to say after getting slagged by the captain after a couple of bad plays during a loss?
"f*** Z! I've got 23 goals and he's got 9. Maybe he should double his scoring before he criticizes me."

No, you say what gets the press of your back

These kids have warts in their game.

But if you're going to hold back their offensive development until they're good defensive players... well... Brendan Smith says hello.

Even in the modern game, lots of valuable wingers aren't good defensively.
Patrick kane is weak in his own end.
Ovechkin is weak.
Phil Kessel sucks.
Vanek.

Let's develop their offensive game....and then see if we can do anything about the defense.

Because if AA and Mantha don't become legit top 6 offensive forwards, this team is in trouble.

 

[Redder Winger]

That's a thoroughly ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said.

Points per 60 is a normalization of scoring... That completely ignores what type of minutes are played, or what competition they are played against, or any activities performed while on the ice that aren't goals or assists.

Yes, points absolutely count. But using ONLY points, without the context, is like saying there's no difference between buying a loaf of bread and stealing one, because at the end of the day, you have one loaf of bread either way.

The most impactful players of all are guys who score well, AND do all the other stuff.

No. I'm asking him if he values goals, assists and points.

Why would someone value G-A-P not not value the /60 variant?

A guy like Sheahan or Glendening isn't going to do a lot for you GAP (or Helm or Abby or Nielsen, for that matter) or P/60.

They can still have value, obviously.

But doesn't production matter?

Show me another Red Wings team in history where the top producers were all RFA and entry level producers and the bottom producers were the UFA contracts.

It's crazy that you guys just refuse to see anything there.

 

[BinCookin]

Very well said sweeney

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

What's a guy going to say after getting slagged by the captain after a couple of bad plays during a loss?
"**** Z! I've got 23 goals and he's got 9. Maybe he should double his scoring before he criticizes me."

No, you say what gets the press of your back

These kids have warts in their game.

But if you're going to hold back their offensive development until they're good defensive players... well... Brendan Smith says hello.

Even in the modern game, lots of valuable wingers aren't good defensively.
Patrick kane is weak in his own end.
Ovechkin is weak.
Phil Kessel sucks.
Vanek.

Let's develop their offensive game....and then see if we can do anything about the defense.

Because if AA and Mantha don't become legit top 6 offensive forwards, this team is in trouble.

If that was his actual thought to a HHOF trying to help him learn the game and asking him to be a better pro he can hit the bricks. I don't think Mantha lied, he knows he wasn't good and he knows he needs to be more consistent. He seems genuine when it comes up.

If the kids don't get the message though, I don't really care if they are around here long-term. I agree with Z's assessment if that is the kind of players they are going to be long-term they aren't going to win anything. Not just now but in the future.

To be clear I think Mantha is working on these things. The guy I am not so sure about is AA, which makes the response game to the comments certainly encouraging.

 

[Flowah]

If you ever actually read what Blashill, Holland, and the Wings brass say about AA (in particular, they say it about Mantha too), you’ll see that they love the **** our of him as a player. They love what he is capable of and think he can be a truly special player. But you can’t just gift wrap minutes to a guy if he doesn’t earn them. And no, having a good p/60 does not constitute earning them. It is a part of it, but a guy with AA’s measurables and hockey IQ should be doing so much more with his talent. I mean, how many guys in the league are faster? Not very many. He’s not a small guy by any means... so where is his physical play? He’s got great hands, so where is the defensive stickwork?

I agree with all of this. He has absolutely every single tool required to be an elite player. Speed, hands, size. His vision and shot ain't bad either.

He lacks only the consistency and work ethic. And it annoys the f*** out of me that that's true.

 

[Frk It]

I agree with all of this. He has absolutely every single tool required to be an elite player. Speed, hands, size. His vision and shot ain't bad either.

He lacks only the consistency and work ethic. And it annoys the **** out of me that that's true.

I think that TZE guy always says consistency is what makes the elite players elite, if I’m not mistaken.