News Article: Red Wings' Mantha, Athanasiou respond to 'poke-and-hope' criticism

[chances14]

It's also very possible that our young players aren't very good and we're wasting a lot of energy complaining about more redundant role players who won't get this team anywhere.

I don't see any way that AA or Mantha are answers to any questions this team has.

nah. much easier to to just blame everything else rather than just admitting the young guys aren't as good as people around here hype them up to be.

 

[BinCookin]

P.S. im hoping Mantha can develop a harder working attitude. I still figure we trade AA soon.

 

[BinCookin]

nah. much easier to to just blame everything else rather than just admitting the young guys aren't as good as people around here hype them up to be.

I don't think we have a legit top line F or D on our team. But id still like all our 2nd liners to play hard

 

[chances14]

I don't think we have a legit top line F or D on our team. But id still like all our 2nd liners to play hard

players shouldn't have to work hard unless they are given unlimited amounts of ice time and catered to their every need

 

[BinCookin]

players shouldn't have to work hard unless they are given unlimited amounts of ice time and catered to their every need

touche

 

[HIFE]

P.S. im hoping Mantha can develop a harder working attitude. I still figure we trade AA soon.

What do you say to the argument that the many "hard work"/charater discussions (since last draft pretty much) have become a redundant, empty bore. Glendening doesn't hit the weight room any harder than Pavs or Z did. NHL players are the best of the best of the best. If they didn't discipline themselves they wouldn't be here. I find it tiring this imagined narrative that Abdelkader and Helm somehow put in more effort than the average NHL'er. Why don't they work on their goddamn stickhandling? The fact is the Wings are a bottom dweller for more reasons than a lack of trying.

Redder is right about the winning culture rhetoric. It's as hollow and generic as "building through the draft". The Wings were an epic O6 team that fell into mismanagement for nearly 1/2 a generation until Illich, Devellano, Bowman, etc. turned Detroit into a near dynasty. The tradition lives on with Zetterberg and some of the staff but enough time will pass and those days will not be relevant. Not to be pessimistic but we could be like the Isles or Clagary for the next 20 years- good but not good enough to contend. Either way if all we have to discuss is pretending to know how hard each guy works, man that will be more painful than not winning.

Edit: I agree the Wings could let AA go. His style of play doesn't fit the mold we're used to seeing.

 

[Redder Winger]

nah. much easier to to just blame everything else rather than just admitting the young guys aren't as good as people around here hype them up to be.

Young guys vs Old guys in Points/60

Athanasiou 2.04
Bertuzzi 1.89
Mantha 1.87
Larkin 1.87
Frk 1.71
TOTAL - $4.486 Million

vs Old guys
Abdelkader 1.51
Zetterberg, 1.49
Helm 1.23
Nielsen 1.1
Glendening 1.06
TOTAL -- $21.233 Million.

If you want to blame guys for not doing their part, I suggest looking at the old, overpaid, unproductive veterans.

 

[kliq]

What do you say to the argument that the many "hard work"/charater discussions (since last draft pretty much) have become a redundant, empty bore. Glendening doesn't hit the weight room any harder than Pavs or Z did. NHL players are the best of the best of the best. If they didn't discipline themselves they wouldn't be here. I find it tiring this imagined narrative that Abdelkader and Helm somehow put in more effort than the average NHL'er. Why don't they work on their goddamn stickhandling? The fact is the Wings are a bottom dweller for more reasons than a lack of trying.

Redder is right about the winning culture rhetoric. It's as hollow and generic as "building through the draft". The Wings were an epic O6 team that fell into mismanagement for nearly 1/2 a generation until Illich, Devellano, Bowman, etc. turned Detroit into a near dynasty. The tradition lives on with Zetterberg and some of the staff but enough time will pass and those days will not be relevant. Not to be pessimistic but we could be like the Isles or Clagary for the next 20 years- good but not good enough to contend. Either way if all we have to discuss is pretending to know how hard each guy works, man that will be more painful than not winning.

Edit: I agree the Wings could let AA go. His style of play doesn't fit the mold we're used to seeing.

I just want to make sure I understand. Are you saying you don't buy that those three players put more effort in then the average NHLer? Or are you saying that you don't believe the narrative that certain players put in more effort then others?

 

[kliq]

Young guys vs Old guys in Points/60

Athanasiou 2.04
Bertuzzi 1.89
Mantha 1.87
Larkin 1.87
Frk 1.71
TOTAL - $4.486 Million

vs Old guys
Abdelkader 1.51
Zetterberg, 1.49
Helm 1.23
Nielsen 1.1
Glendening 1.06
TOTAL -- $21.233 Million.

If you want to blame guys for not doing their part, I suggest looking at the old, overpaid, unproductive veterans.

I have a hard time putting much stock into a stat that says Bertuzzi and Frk are outperforming Zetterberg.

Don't get me wrong, I would move most of the vets in a heartbeat, but I think this just proves the holes in P/60. No way Bertuzzi maintains that number if he plays 19min a night.

Also, since when is 28 make you "an old guy". I get young vs old if you are comparing Z to Larkin for example But Glendening is 28, Frk is 24. Not really a big difference there.

 

[HIFE]

I just want to make sure I understand. Are you saying you don't buy that those three players put more effort in then the average NHLer? Or are you saying that you don't believe the narrative that certain players put in more effort then others?

I doubt those 3 are much more dedicated. May be above average, but who really knows? Do we have access to their fit-bit data?I guess when it's repeated every telecast, like how we're told Larkin is "such a rink rat" it's supposed to have meaning. I'm sure Grabner, Subban, Stamkos, Letang, McDavid, etc. would stomp our guys at the gym. I'd rather Ras and Cholo hooking up with Gary Roberts and McD in the summer than LG.

Yes there have to be extremes to work ethic, like Jagr vs. Leino who gave up hockey to pursue art and music(?). Ho-Sang showed up late to TC a few years back and was sent down the entire season. May be there's better examples, Bobby Ryan? These stories end up being headlines across the hockey world... and they don't happen very often is my point.

I'm just confused why some fans that dislike Blashill this much draw upon his catch-phrases as reasonable material to explain why the team stinks. Zetter didn't come up with this poke and hope comment, that's a Blash-ism. I've read 1000 times AA and Mantha don't try hard enough, yet AM is the best scorer we have, outproducing Marner, Nylander, a lot of good younger players that were higher picks.

It sucks to be a loser but when you start placing empty blame and pointing the finger, that's a sure way to stay as one.

 

[kliq]

I doubt those 3 are much more dedicated. May be above average, but who really knows? Do we have access to their fit-bit data?I guess when it's repeated every telecast, like how we're told Larkin is "such a rink rat" it's supposed to have meaning. I'm sure Grabner, Subban, Stamkos, Letang, McDavid, etc. would stomp our guys at the gym. I'd rather Ras and Cholo hooking up with Gary Roberts and McD in the summer than LG.

Yes there have to be extremes to work ethic, like Jagr vs. Leino who gave up hockey to pursue art and music(?). Ho-Sang showed up late to TC a few years back and was sent down the entire season. May be there's better examples, Bobby Ryan? These stories end up being headlines across the hockey world... and they don't happen very often is my point.

I'm just confused why some fans that dislike Blashill this much draw upon his catch-phrases as reasonable material to explain why the team stinks. Zetter didn't come up with this poke and hope comment, that's a Blash-ism. I've read 1000 times AA and Mantha don't try hard enough, yet AM is the best scorer we have, outproducing Marner, Nylander, a lot of good younger players that were higher picks.

It sucks to be a loser but when you start placing empty blame and pointing the finger, that's a sure way to stay as one.

Losing brings the worst out in everyone. Management, Players, Media, Fans etc. It just becomes very negative.

I didn't watch the game in question, so i can't comment on whether or not its empty blame.

I respected the fact that Mantha owed it, but if you are saying its all BS and you're correct, I guess I respect him more.

 

[TatarTangle]

players shouldn't have to work hard unless they are given unlimited amounts of ice time and catered to their every need

Nah, also just look at their points per 60. But don't consider that those are from sheltered minutes. Don't do that.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Blashill is an idiot and needs to be fired.

When the Red Wings talk about "winning culture," they're not talking about only playing the right way.
They're talking about a culture that was alive in hockeytown for 22-23 years.
When winning was expected.
When you were expected to produce for a Stanley cup competitor

Not your garden variety bull**** that any coach on any team in the league will spew when he can't concoct a ****ing gameplan.

If they say in the media "we're serious about winning" and make moves to improve their roster.... you pitch a ***** saying they're doing it the wrong way.

You are conflating two things. Those teams went to the rink knowing that they should win because they had ****ing stacked rosters that they could spend 15M in an offseason to correct if something went awry. I'm fairly certain that guys like Z and Larkin and Kronwall are well aware that the team lacks talent and the elite talent it does have is getting really long in the tooth. I mean, you literally can't remake the roster like you used to be able to. You can't go balls to the wall and "expect to win every year and chase the Cup every year", not unless you have perfect foresight of what young players to draft and all that.

The difference is that in the late 90s, the Wings were the Yankees. They were going to win or they were going to buy a lot of pieces and make another run at it. They had a guy like Osgoood in net and they went out and traded for Hasek because he was available. You can't do that in the NHL now. The Wings and the NHL as a whole are now more like the Tampa Bay Rays... They have to be managed responsibly and try to find some other unique advantage they have over the rest of the league. Which when you do, it works out swimmingly. But until you land the guys you need or generate that organizational advantage, you're just kind of in a holding pattern because you simply can't have the horses to compete with the best yet. You can either ***** about how you don't have talent or you can try to work together to overcome that lack of talent knowing that some time down the line you will get it.

E: You have no idea what winning culture means. Winning culture means you act a certain way when things are good and you act that exact same way when things are bad. It means that you operate with as much effort towards your goal as you can. You might not like their goal, but the Wings have done exactly that for decades.

 

[Frk It]

E: You have no idea what winning culture means. Winning culture means you act a certain way when things are good and you act that exact same way when things are bad. It means that you operate with as much effort towards your goal as you can. You might not like their goal, but the Wings have done exactly that for decades.

I think it can only last for so long, unfortunately. Players are humans. After awhile it just becomes clear you don't have the horses to get the job done and then it's very easy to not give 100%, when 100% often results in losing anyways.

Z has done a good job of preserving it as much as possible, but outside of occasionally getting them fired up after piss poor efforts... I don't really know how much they have of a winning culture at the moment. At best, Z will keep some semblance of that culture until he retires. But after that, I don't know. I don't see young guys giving a damn what Helm or Abelkader has to say. Z is different, he commands respect. Maybe Larkin can take over that role to an extent, he seems like a hard worker, but not sure if he is a good motivator or leader.

It's definitely not something you can preserve forever.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think it can only last for so long, unfortunately. Players are humans. After awhile it just becomes clear you don't have the horses to get the job done and then it's very easy to not give 100%, when 100% often results in losing anyways.

Z has done a good job of preserving it as much as possible, but outside of occasionally getting them fired up after piss poor efforts... I don't really know how much they have of a winning culture at the moment. At best, Z will keep some semblance of that culture until he retires. But after that, I don't know. I don't see young guys giving a damn what Helm or Abelkader has to say. Z is different, he commands respect. Maybe Larkin can take over that role to an extent, he seems like a hard worker, but not sure if he is a good motivator or leader.

It's definitely not something you can preserve forever.

You’re absolutely right. But even if you lose it, you don’t just chuck it out the window and hope you get it back. You fight the good fight and wait for reinforcements in that way of thinking. You don’t willingly surrender your desire to do things the right way.

 

[chances14]

Young guys vs Old guys in Points/60

Athanasiou 2.04
Bertuzzi 1.89
Mantha 1.87
Larkin 1.87
Frk 1.71
TOTAL - $4.486 Million

vs Old guys
Abdelkader 1.51
Zetterberg, 1.49
Helm 1.23
Nielsen 1.1
Glendening 1.06
TOTAL -- $21.233 Million.

If you want to blame guys for not doing their part, I suggest looking at the old, overpaid, unproductive veterans.

yawn. you posting the same stats over and over again don't make them more legitimate. the p60 stat is as flawed as the +- stat

 

[Flowah]

You’re absolutely right. But even if you lose it, you don’t just chuck it out the window and hope you get it back. You fight the good fight and wait for reinforcements in that way of thinking. You don’t willingly surrender your desire to do things the right way.

Winning culture follows winning far more than winning follows a winning culture.

Toronto had a losing culture. Until they got good players are started winning. Chicago had a losing culture. Until they got good players and started winning.

If you've got a borderline team, maybe culture helps put you over the edge. But if you're just out and out bad, no culture is going to ameliorate that and I'm not sure how it would even help.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Hopefully they don't respond to it before they hit the top lotto odds...

 

[Redder Winger]

yawn. you posting the same stats over and over again don't make them more legitimate. the p60 stat is as flawed as the +- stat

Yawn at people who yawn at facts.

P/60 is as close to apples to apples as it gets.

All our young guys are at the top of our production.
All our old guys are at the bottom.

All the young guys are cheap.
All the old guys are expensive.

Yet, for some stupid reason, The Red Wings, their management and now their captain and fans, love to blame the productive, young, cheap guys for the team's failings.

Rarely does anyone criticize the unproductive, failing, overpriced veteran leadership.

 

[Redder Winger]

Winning culture follows winning far more than winning follows a winning culture.

Toronto had a losing culture. Until they got good players are started winning. Chicago had a losing culture. Until they got good players and started winning.

If you've got a borderline team, maybe culture helps put you over the edge. But if you're just out and out bad, no culture is going to ameliorate that and I'm not sure how it would even help.

Patrick Kane won 3 cups while playing Mantha level defense.

 

[Redder Winger]

I have a hard time putting much stock into a stat that says Bertuzzi and Frk are outperforming Zetterberg.

Don't get me wrong, I would move most of the vets in a heartbeat, but I think this just proves the holes in P/60. No way Bertuzzi maintains that number if he plays 19min a night.

Also, since when is 28 make you "an old guy". I get young vs old if you are comparing Z to Larkin for example But Glendening is 28, Frk is 24. Not really a big difference there.

What ever it is, the younger, cheaper guys are at the top of point production.
The older, expensive guys are at the bottom.

We're a last place team quality team, overplaying veterans in many cases. Underplaying kids in many cases.
And constantly blaming the kids while the veterans are never held to any standards.

Where are the f***ing stories about the captain calling out out Kronwall or Helm?
Where's the story about Blashill calling out the captain? Or Abdelkader? Or Nielsen.

No such stories exist.
In other towns, with real coaches, you see leaders and veterans get benched.
Brent "3 Cups" Seabrook was f***ing scratched.
Jason Spezza was scratched.

We criticize the young kids in Detroit. That's "winning culture."

So f***ing clueless.

 

[Frk It]

Yawn at people who yawn at facts.

P/60 is as close to apples to apples as it gets.

All our young guys are at the top of our production.
All our old guys are at the bottom.

All the young guys are cheap.
All the old guys are expensive.

Yet, for some stupid reason, The Red Wings, their management and now their captain and fans, love to blame the productive, young, cheap guys for the team's failings.

Rarely does anyone criticize the unproductive, failing, overpriced veteran leadership.

I don't think they are blaming anyone. I just think they don't want them to cut any corners. I don't think that means they think they stink.

 

[Redder Winger]

I don't think they are blaming anyone. I just think they don't want them to cut any corners. I don't think that means they think they stink.

Well, I don't want veterans cutting corners each.
Like when Abby or Helm start out of the zone before they've accepted a pass and cough it up.

There's a false notion that these guys are text book players who always do things the right way. And it's bullshit. Especially with Helm, IMO.

 

[Frk It]

Well, I don't want veterans cutting corners each.
Like when Abby or Helm start out of the zone before they've accepted a pass and cough it up.

There's a false notion that these guys are text book players who always do things the right way. And it's bull****. Especially with Helm, IMO.

It seems like the issue at hand is more effort as opposed to execution. They (Abby/Helm for example) don't always do things right but they will get the benefit of the doubt because they are always hustling. Especially Abby.

With some of the young guys it seems to be kind of both at times. Or even that their effort is hindering their execution.

 

[Flowah]

P/60 is as close to apples to apples as it gets.

Only if you assume production scales linearly or close to it, which is ridiculous.

P/60 needs the context of PPG, QOC, QOT. Just because you score 1 point in 10 minutes of IT doesn't mean you'll score 2 points in 20 minutes. If you're playing lower minutes, chances are that's because you're not as trusted by the coach, rightly or wrongly. That means you're likely facing worse competition which means you're more likely to win the matchup.