Red Wings current Veteran contracts

[HIFE]

Leading our team in hits isn't hard though, as we don't really have physical players other than Witkowski and he didn't play a whole lot. Also it isn't just about hits, he hardly ever does anything to insert himself physically, in scrambles, net front, etc. He also use to stand up for teammates more often,we don't see it that much anymore. The other thing, is the majority of his pts are assists where he just touched the puck rather than he made a nice play to create a goal.

Your posts resonate with how I view Abdelkader. The player who was chosen as a captain for team USA and had a monster 2014-15 is not the same person.

I used to admire Abdelkader. When Babcock started inserting him with Datsyuk and then Z his success was not a fluke. Sure there were jokes about Datsyuk deflecting pucks off his backside, but he was there. Seriously JA had some jam to his game- huge checks, winning battles, effective cycling in the offensive zone. Look up his highlights from those years, he was a small terror. I placed his impact in the same realm as an Okposo or Shaw of the day.

At the WCH almost 2 years ago Abdelkader looked like garbage, with some type of injury (he did sprain his knee in April earlier in 2016) Then 2 months later the MCL strain and since then the player we knew is gone. He used to have a jump in his step, a kind of mean and lean vibe, but now everything about his skating is lethargic and heavy. Years ago he crushed defenseman on the forecheck, now it's the 1/2 hearted check to make it look like you tried. As Oddbob noted about his assists last season, I could swear the majority were secondary and seemed nearly inconsequential to the scored goal.

It's similar to the Weiss contract. Best intentions but injuries hampered the man. Interesting that WW1987 (and many others) warned of this exact thing- a player with bottom 6 skill who has fortune on a top line but all the red flags of someone who won't maintain through their 30's- and they were basically right (I was a supporter at the time). I place Abdelkader in the same category as Backes, Ladd, Okposo, Lucic, etc.- deals that were slight overpayment but then they almost instantly fell off a cliff. I read some blurb about Lucic's wife wanting him to be traded because of humiliating comments from fans on social media. Pretty sad. Abdelkader could face similar ridicule if he goes further south. I put blame on the agents but GM's too should be smarter about gambling on certain players even as "young" as late 20's.

Edit: Forgot to add the comparison to Tom Wilson is preposterous. One is 24 y/o and improving, the other is declining hard.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Leading our team in hits isn't hard though, as we don't really have physical players other than Witkowski and he didn't play a whole lot. Also it isn't just about hits, he hardly ever does anything to insert himself physically, in scrambles, net front, etc. He also use to stand up for teammates more often,we don't see it that much anymore. The other thing, is the majority of his pts are assists where he just touched the puck rather than he made a nice play to create a goal.

He was still like 20th in the league so you can’t dismiss it like that. The rest of the team being soft is just all the more reason he’s valuable for us.
And points are points, in the other thread someone dismissed Larkin’s production because they were ”empty stats”, here you dismiss Abby’s because they’re not ”nice plays”. It’d be nice to just stick to actual facts instead of trying to diminish someone’s numbers because we don’t like the player.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Is anyone arguing he has no value on the roster?

The argument is about whether he brings anything close to what he was paid and for the term he was paid for.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Is anyone arguing he has no value on the roster?

The argument is about whether he brings anything close to what he was paid and for the term he was paid for.

And pretty much what Henkka tried to point out is that his cap hit is not too much, and I pointed out that he has not seen some drastic decline from being a ~40 point, physical player.
Complaints about what the deal could look like in the last 2-3 years are valid, the term is too long. But at that point we could have had another lockout, more compliance buyouts, he could be traded, cap could be 100 million, he could go on LTIR, he could straight up retire, and there’s the small chance he actually remains decent throughout the deal. Had he signed 4 or 5 years at the same cap it would have been okay, just never seen the point of complaining for 5 years about those extra 2 years that could end up bad.

 

[ThankGord]

Edit: Forgot to add the comparison to Tom Wilson is preposterous. One is 24 y/o and improving, the other is declining hard.

Obviously Tom Wilson at 24 is better than Abdelkader at 31 come on dude lol. I was trying to discuss why Holland offered Abby a contract like this and Tom Wilson's contract was a point of comparison in that it's high AAV and long term for a player who plays a physical game (or did at the time) and doesn't put up many points.

 

[newfy]

And pretty much what Henkka tried to point out is that his cap hit is not too much, and I pointed out that he has not seen some drastic decline from being a ~40 point, physical player.
Complaints about what the deal could look like in the last 2-3 years are valid, the term is too long. But at that point we could have had another lockout, more compliance buyouts, he could be traded, cap could be 100 million, he could go on LTIR, he could straight up retire, and there’s the small chance he actually remains decent throughout the deal. Had he signed 4 or 5 years at the same cap it would have been okay, just never seen the point of complaining for 5 years about those extra 2 years that could end up bad.

This is how I feel. This board is going to be annoying if people complain all the time about how bad the deal is going to be. Wait until it actually gets bad to really complain because its gonna be a long few years here if people do it constantly now. As it stands,Abdelkader got paid right around his market value and he was still somewhat productive on a really bad offensive team last season. And then like you said, theres so much that can happen between now and the end of the deal maybe people should let it play out first. I have a feeling the last couple wont be good but if his body is that broken by then he could LTIRetire for all we know.

Too many people talk in certainties on this board, make it negative, then look stupid down the road. It happened with Larkin and Bertuzzi being drafted. Some people never learn

 

[jkutswings]

Complaints about what the deal could look like in the last 2-3 years are valid, the term is too long. But at that point we could have had another lockout, more compliance buyouts, he could be traded, cap could be 100 million, he could go on LTIR, he could straight up retire, and there’s the small chance he actually remains decent throughout the deal. Had he signed 4 or 5 years at the same cap it would have been okay, just never seen the point of complaining for 5 years about those extra 2 years that could end up bad.

1) Whether there's eventually one or more ways to get out of the deal or not, it was still a mistake to sign him to a 7 year contract. I expect him to not hit 40 points this year, not hit 35 next year, and be lucky to hit 30 points in 2 years.

2) Abdelkader in particular is the poster child for why I'm downright embarrassed by how this franchise set priorities, circa 2014-2016. Over-reward players that don't deserve it, keep patching holes on a boat that's clearly sinking, and cling to the slimmest of chances at what might happen, instead of being proactive with the present reality.

I have no major issues with Justin the player, in the here and now. It's the philosophy of the front office behind the deal that frustrates the daylights out of me. To their credit, the last 12 months or so have been a good step in the right direction. But there are still plenty of reminders on the roster of the blunders of the recent past, which are reasons I still want a fresh set of decision makers when Holland's current deal expires.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

This is how I feel. This board is going to be annoying if people complain all the time about how bad the deal is going to be. Wait until it actually gets bad to really complain because its gonna be a long few years here if people do it constantly now. As it stands,Abdelkader got paid right around his market value and he was still somewhat productive on a really bad offensive team last season. And then like you said, theres so much that can happen between now and the end of the deal maybe people should let it play out first. I have a feeling the last couple wont be good but if his body is that broken by then he could LTIRetire for all we know.

Too many people talk in certainties on this board, make it negative, then look stupid down the road. It happened with Larkin and Bertuzzi being drafted. Some people never learn

It already is bad. The "logic" behind signing him to a seven year deal was that you got positive value out of the contract during the first 3-4 years of the deal, and then pray that a meteor blows up the Earth during year five.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And pretty much what Henkka tried to point out is that his cap hit is not too much, and I pointed out that he has not seen some drastic decline from being a ~40 point, physical player.

Him not declining yet doesn't really mean anything with regards to his production in 5-7 years.

Complaints about what the deal could look like in the last 2-3 years are valid, the term is too long. But at that point we could have had another lockout, more compliance buyouts, he could be traded, cap could be 100 million, he could go on LTIR, he could straight up retire, and there’s the small chance he actually remains decent throughout the deal. Had he signed 4 or 5 years at the same cap it would have been okay, just never seen the point of complaining for 5 years about those extra 2 years that could end up bad.

We could also be a contending team looking to pay guys like Mantha and Larkin and Zadina and maybe Cholowski or Athanasiou or a big free agent and without the space to do so because of poor contracts like Abdelkader staying on the books for such a long time. That is what the team is gunning for, correct? To build with the guys we have now and contend in the not-so-far future?

What good does having Abdelkader on a decent deal right now do? Other than cap space, which if I remember correctly doesn't provide much of a benefit in your opinion.

 

[Henkka]

Abdelkader will be the only experinced team leader and example athlete for next young core when everybody of this old core is retired.

Ken Holland saw this already 4 years ago, and you guys still won't get it.

Cap will be higher and higher and his relative caphit will drop each year as he regresses as a player.

The term isn't even a problem.

 

[Frk It]

Abdelkader will be the only experinced team leader and example athlete for next young core when everybody of this old core is retired.

Ken Holland saw this already 4 years ago, and you guys still won't get it.

There's this Larkin guy... who is going to be wearing the C soon...

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Abdelkader will be the only experinced team leader and example athlete for next young core when everybody of this old core is retired.

Ken Holland saw this already 4 years ago, and you guys still won't get it.

Cap will be higher and higher and his relative caphit will drop each year as he regresses as a player.

The term isn't even a problem.

If Abdelkader is the only experienced team leader and example athlete on the team in five+ years then this team is in worse shape than I thought.

 

[Henkka]

If Abdelkader is the only experienced team leader and example athlete on the team in five+ years then this team is in worse shape than I thought.

Yep. In the year of 2014, with an old and retiring core, you pretty much don't know who are your players in the year of 2020-22.

Exept you knew what Abdelkader brings on that transition period. Helm is another.

Simple logic.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yep. In the year of 2014, with an old and retiring core, you pretty much don't know who are your players in the year of 2020-22.

Exept you knew what Abdelkader brings on that transition period. Helm is another.

Simple logic.

You are missing the point.

We don't NEED him in that regard because the team should have other experienced players with heart and the ability to move the younger players along. Even if he was the only one to provide those intangibles, that doesn't require a 7 year commitment.

Also I don't want Helm to be any kind of leader on this team over his younger and better teammates.

 

[Winger98]

Not buying the leadership thing. We still had Z when they were re-signed. Kronwall. Ericsson. Howard. Holland has went out and signed plenty of other vets to fill out the lineup like Nielsen, Daley, and Green.

And the Wings seem to have gone out and made intangibles a significant piece of who they draft. Maybe because they realized that Gator and Helm doesn't make a leader out of a guy if the guy just isn't willing to be lead (Athanasiou, Avery, Cleary before he got his act together when signing here).

Him not declining yet doesn't really mean anything with regards to his production in 5-7 years.

I'm not even sure how much you can argue he hasn't already declined. I know the 35 points last year has been pointed to, but it ignores the injuries and 21 points he put up the year before that. And that he's getting 2 less minutes per game since he signed that deal.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We could also be a contending team looking to pay guys like Mantha and Larkin and Zadina and maybe Cholowski or Athanasiou or a big free agent and without the space to do so because of poor contracts like Abdelkader staying on the books for such a long time. That is what the team is gunning for, correct? To build with the guys we have now and contend in the not-so-far future?

Larkin's deal expires at the same time as Abby's, but other than that sure; we could be in that situation. But given that we have between 40 and 70 million in available cap space for Abby's last 3 years, without any cap increase, I'm inclined to say that if we seriously struggle cap-wise it will have to do with a lot of other stuff beyond a 4.25M cap hit.

I'm not even sure how much you can argue he hasn't already declined. I know the 35 points last year has been pointed to, but it ignores the injuries and 21 points he put up the year before that. And that he's getting 2 less minutes per game since he signed that deal.

Come on, either he gets criticized for being handfed icetime and that's the only reason he put up points, or he is supposedly "declining" because he gets a little less icetime due to the emergence of Larkin and Mantha as top 6 players.
The entire team has seen their offensive production plummet under Blashill. 2 of Abby's 3 seasons under Blash have been right on the mark of what should be expected from him (~40 points). Not many guys are going to put up career best numbers on a team that's bottom 5 offensively, Abby being as close as he's been is actually pretty impressive.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Larkin's deal expires at the same time as Abby's, but other than that sure; we could be in that situation. But given that we have between 40 and 70 million in available cap space for Abby's last 3 years, without any cap increase, I'm inclined to say that if we seriously struggle cap-wise it will have to do with a lot of other stuff beyond a 4.25M cap hit.

And just because there could be other factors that would lead to that situation does not mean Abdelkader's contract isn't in itself a factor. There is rarely, if ever, a single contract that tanks a team's ability to have the right amount of cap space to re-sign their stars or sign free agents.

 

[Winger98]

Come on, either he gets criticized for being handfed icetime and that's the only reason he put up points, or he is supposedly "declining" because he gets a little less icetime due to the emergence of Larkin and Mantha as top 6 players.
The entire team has seen their offensive production plummet under Blashill. 2 of Abby's 3 seasons under Blash have been right on the mark of what should be expected from him (~40 points). Not many guys are going to put up career best numbers on a team that's bottom 5 offensively, Abby being as close as he's been is actually pretty impressive.

Folks want to talk about how the team around him has slipped, but on a team that is getting worse, he's being trusted less. He's lost IT across the board from ES to PK to PP. At ES, he got fewer minutes than Bertuzzi, Helm, and Athanasiou. And if the emergence of the kids are pushing down Gator's ice time, why has Helm's went up in that same time frame? Gator's also being pushed down the lineup by the emergence of Darren Helm?

Since Gator has signed his deal he's put up 56 points. The two seasons before? 86. Even his rate production fell from .56 to .4

Yeah, Gator's declined. He's getting fewer minutes, trusted with fewer responsibilities, because he isn't playing as well. Maybe he still settles into this ~30ish point guy who mucks it up a bit, that wouldn't be the worst thing. But that 40+ point guy that convinced Holland to throw this deal at him? I don't think it's there.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Folks want to talk about how the team around him has slipped, but on a team that is getting worse, he's being trusted less. He's lost IT across the board from ES to PK to PP. At ES, he got fewer minutes than Bertuzzi, Helm, and Athanasiou. And if the emergence of the kids are pushing down Gator's ice time, why has Helm's went up in that same time frame? Gator's also being pushed down the lineup by the emergence of Darren Helm?

Since Gator has signed his deal he's put up 56 points. The two seasons before? 86. Even his rate production fell from .56 to .4

Yeah, Gator's declined. He's getting fewer minutes, trusted with fewer responsibilities, because he isn't playing as well. Maybe he still settles into this ~30ish point guy who mucks it up a bit, that wouldn't be the worst thing. But that 40+ point guy that convinced Holland to throw this deal at him? I don't think it's there.

Larkin, Z, Mantha, Gus and Tatar were the forwards with more icetime. Hardly indicative of much less responsibility. Abby has always and will continue to be an ’up and down the lineup’ type player, it’s not like he’s paid like a bonafide top 6 or that 35-40 points is less valuable because he does it in less icetime.

 

[Ingvar]

I don’t understand why we should have such general discussion in the first place. There are a lot of different reasons why there are veterans on out team: some are leftovers from when we were trying to be good, some were signed as a contingency in case we’ll still have a bad team down the road, some are stopgaps until prospects mature and a future deadline asset, some are irrelevant in the long run. Yet we throw away the context, lump all of them together and complain “Hur-dur, too many people in the old age of 30 on the team”.

The only contract I find atrocious is Helm’s. He was the most replaceable bottom-6 player when we signed him and we gave him both too much term and too much money. But even it won’t change the future of franchise much.

 

[jkutswings]

The entire team has seen their offensive production plummet under Blashill.

Except for Larkin and Mantha. You know, the actual important players on the roster.

In another 2-3 years, Abdelkader will be the human appendix to this team, both in terms of production and leadership, because there will be multiple players that do a better job of both. There was zero reason whatsoever to go past 4 years on his extension, and if that was the sticking point, they should have let him walk (or better yet, traded him before his initial deal expired) and replaced him with <Random Gritty Forward> in free agency on a 2-4 year deal.

There is absolutely nothing that he does that is so magical as to justify his term, instead of finding a different (smarter) way to help build a roster.

 

[Heaton]

I don’t understand why we should have such general discussion in the first place. There are a lot of different reasons why there are veterans on out team: some are leftovers from when we were trying to be good, some were signed as a contingency in case we’ll still have a bad team down the road, some are stopgaps until prospects mature and a future deadline asset, some are irrelevant in the long run. Yet we throw away the context, lump all of them together and complain “Hur-dur, too many people in the old age of 30 on the team”.

The only contract I find atrocious is Helm’s. He was the most replaceable bottom-6 player when we signed him and we gave him both too much term and too much money. But even it won’t change the future of franchise much.

It's the principle of the thing to me, 7 year deals should not be given out to role players. I doubt he'll give another one out again because he realizes how ridiculous it is. You should only give 5+ year deals out to your star players. Everyone else should get shorter term since they're easily replaceable.

You can find an Abdelkader in free agency every single year for cheaper and less term. Abdelkader earned his money off of playing with Datsyuk and Z. He still gets way more PPTOI than he should (over 175 minutes last season). There is absolutely no reason for him to be on the PP this year or next when Rasmussen and Zadina are on the team. His 'net front' role should be over.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Except for Larkin and Mantha. You know, the actual important players on the roster.

Neither played under Babs when the team was much stronger possession wise and with better offense.

It’s not black or white, that Abby is either magical or the literal devil and downfall of our team. Truth is he’s a fairly useful player, pretty fairly paid for a bit too long, in the larger scope of things not more than a footnote.

 

[HisNoodliness]

The problem with Abdelkader's contract has never been the cap hit but the length.

I'd argue that any single aspect of Abby's contract is somewhere in the "a little bad" to "pretty bad" range. But when you consider the contract as a whole, he got big AAV for seven years with a NTC, it's terrible. Usually you make concessions in one area for benefits elsewhere... But there's just nowhere that Holland won. If Abby was signing for 7 years, it should have been at $3 mil. If he had a NTC too, 2.5. Or he can make his 4.25, but then it better be a 4 year deal max, 3 if he wants a NTC.

This guy is supposedly a heart and soul hometown hero that's always wanted to be a Red Wing. That's the type of guy you convince to take a discount... Or just let him walk; Abdelkader's skillset is not that special. Getting desperate and meeting every single one of his demands was unnecessary. It's like Abdelkader's agent was the guy from pawn stars, and Holland accepted his first request.

"I want to be a wing for a long time, how about 7 years but I'll take a reasonable 2.5 million"
"I don't know Justin, that's a long time... Are you sure you don't want 4.25 and a NTC too?"

 

[jkutswings]

It's the principle of the thing to me, 7 year deals should not be given out to role players. I doubt he'll give another one out again because he realizes how ridiculous it is. You should only give 5+ year deals out to your star players. Everyone else should get shorter term since they're easily replaceable.

You can find an Abdelkader in free agency every single year for cheaper and less term. Abdelkader earned his money off of playing with Datsyuk and Z. He still gets way more PPTOI than he should (over 175 minutes last season). There is absolutely no reason for him to be on the PP this year or next when Rasmussen and Zadina are on the team. His 'net front' role should be over.

Bingo. The phrase, "7 year deal" should never even enter the conversation of a contract negotiation without the following prerequisite:

You're confident that this player, for at least 5 of those 7 years, will be one of the two best players on your roster.

That's why I was ok with considering it for Larkin. Dylan has made some great strides, and he's on track to be very successful at a position of great need. Mantha and Rasmussen and Cholowski and Hronek might all be very good players, but in the here and now, Zadina is the only guy that I could see being a better Red Wing than Larkin in the next 3-5 years.

Justin? He was certainly a good player leading up to his extension, but was never anywhere near a top 2 guy on the team.