Salary Cap: Red Wings 2017-18 cap discussion

[HIFE]

We have to admit it's a little weird. Gretzky could be traded, Iginla could be traded, but not the mighty bearded one Zetterberg? I love Z but honestly would love more to get this rebuild kicking off. Doan, Ladd, Backes, Staal...there's a lot of leaders that eventually a team might have to say good bye to for the sake of the future.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

What would you guys want for Mike Green? How would you gauge his value?

First + prospect or mid round pick?

 

[Vatican Roulette]

What would you guys want for Mike Green? How would you gauge his value?

First + prospect or mid round pick?

That works. TBH, just the 1st works.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

We have to admit it's a little weird. Gretzky could be traded, Iginla could be traded, but not the mighty bearded one Zetterberg? I love Z but honestly would love more to get this rebuild kicking off. Doan, Ladd, Backes, Staal...there's a lot of leaders that eventually a team might have to say good bye to for the sake of the future.

I would deal him to the highest bidder no problem. He has to give it his blessing though. He's earned that. Same with Datsyuk and the others that will make the rafters.

 

[HIFE]

I would deal him to the highest bidder no problem. He has to give it his blessing though. He's earned that. Same with Datsyuk and the others that will make the rafters.

I know the idea is sacrosanct but I was thinking he might very much enjoy playing for Ottawa. What Swede doesn't want to team up with Karlsson? You've got Alfie there. Going to Tampa would be too outrageous.

Why is Z considered so off limits? Is it the cup win, or the legacy from Stevie to Nick, not wanting to interrupt the progression? Datsyuk said he wouldn't play for another team but has Z ever said so? In a case of the Sedins I wonder if they are passed on next year. I mean they should but the loyalty factor is sky high there as well. I think the 08 cup and Smyth trophy might be what makes Zetter pretty much untouchable.

Oh well file this under "things that will never happen".

 

[BinCookin]

I know the idea is sacrosanct but I was thinking he might very much enjoy playing for Ottawa. What Swede doesn't want to team up with Karlsson? You've got Alfie there. Going to Tampa would be too outrageous.

Why is Z considered so off limits? Is it the cup win, or the legacy from Stevie to Nick, not wanting to interrupt the progression? Datsyuk said he wouldn't play for another team but has Z ever said so? In a case of the Sedins I wonder if they are passed on next year. I mean they should but the loyalty factor is sky high there as well. I think the 08 cup and Smyth trophy might be what makes Zetter pretty much untouchable.

Oh well file this under "things that will never happen".

my response was pretending to be Holland.

from Holland's point of view:

1) Life long wings are cool
2) Z has a cup, conn smythe, and likely rafters
3) Z's contract is 4 more years
4) Risk of cap recapture is high.

points 3 and 4 are big. players like Iginla were UFA's same with Ladd... sam with most older stars. very rarely will you see a vet with 4 years left on their deal traded. and honestly the odds of being hit by that recapture penalty are higher than us winning the lottery in any one year.

So i think all those factors combine into Z being not for sale.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

What would you guys want for Mike Green? How would you gauge his value?

First + prospect or mid round pick?

2018 late mid to late 1st round pick would suffice for Green.

 

[jolly roger]

Good article in Fanrag https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.fanragsports.com/nhl/red-wings/what-andreas-athanasiou-can-prove-o

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I know the idea is sacrosanct but I was thinking he might very much enjoy playing for Ottawa. What Swede doesn't want to team up with Karlsson? You've got Alfie there. Going to Tampa would be too outrageous.

Why is Z considered so off limits? Is it the cup win, or the legacy from Stevie to Nick, not wanting to interrupt the progression? Datsyuk said he wouldn't play for another team but has Z ever said so? In a case of the Sedins I wonder if they are passed on next year. I mean they should but the loyalty factor is sky high there as well. I think the 08 cup and Smyth trophy might be what makes Zetter pretty much untouchable.

Oh well file this under "things that will never happen".

He's offlimits because whatever return you get for him has a huge anchor waiting at the end of it. Once you trade him, the other team doesn't have any desire at keeping him on LTIR to save you the cap recapture. They won't be hit by hardly anything, so they'll let him retire.

So, you have to build in the extra value, If you trade him now, he plays three years and retires with one year left... you have an 11M cap hit on your books for an empty roster space.

Basically, the Wings would in no way would be able to recoup enough value to make it a good idea to take on so much risk.

E: Basically, if it was pre 2012 lockout right now, I'd be willing to deal Z to wherever he wanted to go. However, the only way you can possibly live with the risk of the trade if it goes completely sideways (Z plays three years and retires with one left, leaving you with 11M in recapturable salary) is if you managed to win the lottery and you had a Connor McDavid level asset there for you to take.

 

[Winger98]

He's offlimits because whatever return you get for him has a huge anchor waiting at the end of it. Once you trade him, the other team doesn't have any desire at keeping him on LTIR to save you the cap recapture. They won't be hit by hardly anything, so they'll let him retire.

So, you have to build in the extra value, If you trade him now, he plays three years and retires with one year left... you have an 11M cap hit on your books for an empty roster space.

Basically, the Wings would in no way would be able to recoup enough value to make it a good idea to take on so much risk.

E: Basically, if it was pre 2012 lockout right now, I'd be willing to deal Z to wherever he wanted to go. However, the only way you can possibly live with the risk of the trade if it goes completely sideways (Z plays three years and retires with one left, leaving you with 11M in recapturable salary) is if you managed to win the lottery and you had a Connor McDavid level asset there for you to take.

That's not why Zetterberg won't be moved. He's staying or he's going because it's what he's okay with. He's been here 15 years, he's the captain, he's always put the team first, and he's been one of our best players for the majority of that span. Whether or not we like how the Wings look after guys and find ways to accomodate them (and their contracts), it's how the Wings work. Z's not getting moved because, from all appearances, he doesn't desire to be moved.

By the same token, if he walked into Holland's office tomorrow and asked to be moved, I don't doubt for a minute that Holland would try to accommodate him. He wouldn't give Z away, I have to believe no move would be made without what Holland would consider to be fair value coming back (and that wouldn't be a McDavid level asset, but it should be some high firsts/blue chip prospects), but I don't doubt Holland would be willing to risk the recapture for it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's not why Zetterberg won't be moved. He's staying or he's going because it's what he's okay with. He's been here 15 years, he's the captain, he's always put the team first, and he's been one of our best players for the majority of that span. Whether or not we like how the Wings look after guys and find ways to accomodate them (and their contracts), it's how the Wings work. Z's not getting moved because, from all appearances, he doesn't desire to be moved.

By the same token, if he walked into Holland's office tomorrow and asked to be moved, I don't doubt for a minute that Holland would try to accommodate him. He wouldn't give Z away, I have to believe no move would be made without what Holland would consider to be fair value coming back (and that wouldn't be a McDavid level asset, but it should be some high firsts/blue chip prospects), but I don't doubt Holland would be willing to risk the recapture for it.

It is why he won't be moved outside of him coming to Holland asking for it. It's why no conversation will ever gain any traction.

A team isn't going to give you multiple firsts/blue chip prospects for late 30s Henrik Zetterberg, no matter his stats.

For a deal involving Z to make any remote sense, one of two things needs to happen.

1) Z comes to Holland and says "get me out of Detroit and to a place where I can win a Cup."
2) Some team comes with an offer that would make sense to possibly acquire 2008 Conn Smythe winning Zetterberg for the current version of Z outside of Z asking for a deal.

It all combines into why he won't be moved.

He won't be moved because he doesn't want to be. If he asked tomorrow, they'd look at it. But it would need to be a bigger deal than an acquiring team would want to give for a guy with Z's portfolio now due to the risk.

He also won't be casually shopped around because of the risk.

I was saying why the Wings won't countenance the idea of moving Zetterberg without him coming to Holland saying I want a chance at a Cup. That does have to do with the financial risks associated with it.

 

[Riptide]

Maybe it's not that Holland thinks he can win with 2nd liners, maybe he thinks a team of 2nd liners is better set up to win IF a kid or two turns into a 1st liner/1st-pairing caliber player.

2-2-2
2-2-2
3-3-3
4-4-4

can turn into

1-1-2
2-2-2
2-2-3
3-3-4

which is a very good lineup if, say, Rasmussen/Larkin turn into a #1C and Mantha/Svech turn into a #1W.

This board wants to look for those 1st liners before filling the team with 2nd and 3rd liners. Which kinda makes sense if you look at team-building in a really linear way. I don't think building a contender is ever going to be truly linear though. I see no reason why you can't find your #2C before you find the #1C, finding your 2nd paring before your 1st etc. The moment you find the high-end talent those guys will have a ripple effect throughout the lineup and you can become an instant contender while having a cheap ELC/RFA core. That is the ideal scenario for us. Cheap, good core+expensive, good depth= contender. That turns into expensive core, cheap depth after a few years but you want to maximize the opportunity to win while the core is cheap. You're not doing that if you're spending those cheap years trying to find and add depth, which is what I think a lot of rebuilding teams get stuck on.

Came here looking for something else, and this discussion jumped out at me. I don't think GMs plan on building their team any specific way (with regards to how has been specified above - Pavels this isn't directed solely at you). I mean sure they have big plans if they could pick and choose exactly what they want... but we all know it doesn't work that way. So instead they acquire the best talent they can, draft the players they think will succeed, and then build around them and go from there while praying that some of those draft picks hit it big. If that means they have 2 #1Cs, then great. If not, they add the talent they can afford to add and try and fill what holes they can.

 

[Lampedampe]

I know this might have more to do with 18-19 cap situation, but wouldn't breakout seasons from Mantha and Larkin put us in a very tricky cap situation next off season? I just don't see where we can find the cap room to lock them up.

If we hadn't signed Helm and Daley we'd be in such a different situation.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know this might have more to do with 18-19 cap situation, but wouldn't breakout seasons from Mantha and Larkin put us in a very tricky cap situation next off season? I just don't see where we can find the cap room to lock them up.

If we hadn't signed Helm and Daley we'd be in such a different situation.

They seem to be forced bridge deals unless we can move someone.

One of the goalies salaries is coming off next season in my opinion. That frees up a pretty nice chunk of change.

 

[Ezekial]

Have to assume Mike Green's 6 million isn't coming back either, 10 mil between him and Mrazek. Unless the season plays out in Pete's favor and we can trade Howie with retention to still have around 9.

 

[Henkka]

I know this might have more to do with 18-19 cap situation, but wouldn't breakout seasons from Mantha and Larkin put us in a very tricky cap situation next off season? I just don't see where we can find the cap room to lock them up.

If we hadn't signed Helm and Daley we'd be in such a different situation.

Hmm...

Weiss caphit will drop, -1M
Green traded, -6M
Mantha + Larkin old contracts, -2M
Cap will go up, -3M

There's plenty of room, that already makes 12 million. Larkin and Mantha can't cost more.

 

[Mister Ed]

Didn't know where else to put this, from Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts :

Sounds like Pittsburgh has re-ignited its search for another centre. Not sure about names. Have heard rumblings about Detroit’s Riley Sheahan, but not specific to the Penguins.

Source

He might be the domino waiting to fall in order to sign AA.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I know this might have more to do with 18-19 cap situation, but wouldn't breakout seasons from Mantha and Larkin put us in a very tricky cap situation next off season? I just don't see where we can find the cap room to lock them up.

If we hadn't signed Helm and Daley we'd be in such a different situation.

If Mantha and Larkin break out, we are not in a tricky cap situation. We take it up the rear in a trade to lose a guy like Ericsson or Helm or Nielsen. You have young players break out, you don't lose the young player. You make moves. It would be a GOOD thing for Detroit if they had breakout seasons. Team would be successful (depending on how much broken out) and they would be forced to dump a higher salary guy damn the return.

Instead of being wishy washy on moving a Sheahan, you do it happily to lock up your 22 year old C who just had a 50-60 point season. Instead of waiting for a great return on Howard or Mrazek, you move them, with retention even.

Having a couple young players explode onto the scene would be a good thing for Detroit and in no way a negative.

 

[Winger98]

Buying Ericsson out after this season doesn't hurt us much. It costs us $1.4m. Might be cheaper to just do that than trying to package assets or eat part of his salary to make a deal happen.

 

[Ezekial]

Buying Ericsson out after this season doesn't hurt us much. It costs us $1.4m. Might be cheaper to just do that than trying to package assets or eat part of his salary to make a deal happen.

That's cap hit if bought out after the 18-19 season.

Edit: Oh my bad winger, it's the same total, just 4 years instead of 2. I looked up big E buyouts a few days ago

 

[Winger98]

That's cap hit if bought out after the 18-19 season.

Edit: Oh my bad winger, it's the same total, just 4 years instead of 2. I looked up big E buyouts a few days ago

I don't think a day goes by where I'm not plugging different players into capfriendly's buyout calculator with different dates. I so hate our cap/roster structure right now.