Salary Cap: Red Wings 2017-18 cap discussion

[StargateSG1]

Tatar has played in 345 games, Nyquist 337. Both are in their late-20s. They are vets by nearly any definition, and in 3-4 years they will actually still be close enough to their primes to support the younger guys coming up. In 3-4 years, you're looking at Helm and Abby both nearing their mid30s and Nielsen will be on the wrong side of 35.

Agree with a lot else that you said, but guys like Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Glendening, and Dekeyser (and, frankly, Mrazek) need to be the guys taking on those leadership roles. They are the right age for it. If they aren't able to take on those responsibilities I think that speaks to bigger problems.



We're not rebuilding because Kenny isn't building this roster or this organization to be rebuilding. Yeah, he traded some guys when we were clearly out of the playoff picture. He's also loaded the roster with vets, and then went out and has signed some more mediocre vets (while reportedly pursuing others), and talking about making the playoffs being the goal.

Yeah, the Wings might just be a horrible enough team so that they will bottom out again next year regardless. But that's not rebuilding. That's mismanaging his resources to the point of the club imploding. If this club was rebuilding, that would be the purpose of Holland's moves. Outside of near delusion, I can't see any realistic argument that Holland has rebuilding as the purpose behind what he's done.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, the Wings might just be a horrible enough team so that they will bottom out again next year regardless. But that's not rebuilding. That's mismanaging his resources to the point of the club imploding. If this club was rebuilding, that would be the purpose of Holland's moves. Outside of near delusion, I can't see any realistic argument that Holland has rebuilding as the purpose behind what he's done.

Pretty much, yeah. Although I wouldn't say he outright has zero focus on rebuilding. Just the issue is as always, he's trying to do 2 opposing things which will more than likely keep placing us in no-mans land. Which I can understand, if you try and put yourself in his shoes and understand how conflicted he must be. He's trying to balance his legacy, fighting for his job, and setting the team up long term... and honestly... that's probably too much for any 1 person to have on his/her plate. That's where ownership has to come in and appoint someone to execute a clear/specific plan who has less to lose and more to prove.

 

[Run the Jewels]

So instead you move the goalposts to "there are other veteran FAs available". But if we sign them instead, we aren't playing the "younger players" that you want in the lineup instead of veterans. So who cares if there's other options? If we want a gritty veteran, why not Abby and Helm over what is mostly a list of total garbage or guys with questionable work ethic?

I'm not sure you understand what the phrase moves the goalposts means. What I was doing was providing additional reasons for why the Abby and Helm deals were awful. You feel you need veteran presence - apparently Tatar and Nyquist aren't veterans!! - then you go pluck your Abby and Helm equivalent player and sign him to a one year contract at a fraction of their annual salary. If you want to play kids awesome! I'm sure a few of those 80 free agents will be available when injuries strike.

There is no defending the Abby and Helm deals although I can see you will continue to defend those contracts.

 

[Winger98]

Pretty much, yeah. Although I wouldn't say he outright has zero focus on rebuilding. Just the issue is as always, he's trying to do 2 opposing things which will more than likely keep placing us in no-mans land. Which I can understand, if you try and put yourself in his shoes and understand how conflicted he must be. He's trying to balance his legacy, fighting for his job, and setting the team up long term... and honestly... that's probably too much for any 1 person to have on his/her plate. That's where ownership has to come in and appoint someone to execute a clear/specific plan who has less to lose and more to prove.

Holland's job, though, is to do what you're wanting ownership to appoint someone else to do, though. He's supposed to be able to set everything else aside, look at the organization, and at the very least lobby ownership for a direction that he believes is best. Maybe he's done that, and ownership has just overruled him. That's entirely possible. But his legacy and continued employment be damned, his job is to do what's best for the org.

Granted, Dombrowski did that and seemed to pretty much be fired for it. But he also got the Tigers some desperately needed pieces before being shown the door.

 

[Frk It]

Holland's job, though, is to do what you're wanting ownership to appoint someone else to do, though. He's supposed to be able to set everything else aside, look at the organization, and at the very least lobby ownership for a direction that he believes is best. Maybe he's done that, and ownership has just overruled him. That's entirely possible. But his legacy and continued employment be damned, his job is to do what's best for the org.

Granted, Dombrowski did that and seemed to pretty much be fired for it. But he also got the Tigers some desperately needed pieces before being shown the door.

I totally agree... but that's specifically why I think it has to be someone else. Even though I can sympathize with why Holland is probably + understandably conflicted at this point in time.

 

[Red Stanley]

The argument of "making the playoffs" is so tired now, it's not even funny.
What were the results in the playoffs with those players again?
Out in 5? Round 1?
Oh yeah, they are really worth it!

Irrelevant. The point is different circumstances prompted different actions. I'm not defending the actions, but pointing out that we should not be ignoring the particular circumstances when drawing generalized conclusions.

 

[Red Stanley]

Tatar has played in 345 games, Nyquist 337. Both are in their late-20s. They are vets by nearly any definition, and in 3-4 years they will actually still be close enough to their primes to support the younger guys coming up. In 3-4 years, you're looking at Helm and Abby both nearing their mid30s and Nielsen will be on the wrong side of 35.

Agree with a lot else that you said, but guys like Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Glendening, and Dekeyser (and, frankly, Mrazek) need to be the guys taking on those leadership roles. They are the right age for it. If they aren't able to take on those responsibilities I think that speaks to bigger problems.



We're not rebuilding because Kenny isn't building this roster or this organization to be rebuilding. Yeah, he traded some guys when we were clearly out of the playoff picture. He's also loaded the roster with vets, and then went out and has signed some more mediocre vets (while reportedly pursuing others), and talking about making the playoffs being the goal.

Yeah, the Wings might just be a horrible enough team so that they will bottom out again next year regardless. But that's not rebuilding. That's mismanaging his resources to the point of the club imploding. If this club was rebuilding, that would be the purpose of Holland's moves. Outside of near delusion, I can't see any realistic argument that Holland has rebuilding as the purpose behind what he's done.

Judging from their play, I'm not seeing Nyq, Tatar, Mrazek, or Sheahan leading anybody regardless of age. Jury is still out on Nielsen. It would've been nice had our newer crop of skilled guys also turned out to have leadership qualities. And maybe they do in the locker room, they just don't show it on the ice.

As for rebuilding, that's exactly what's happening right now. We can debate how much Holland really means it till our fingers fall off from mashing they keyboard. The reality is that we're a bad team that's not projected to be any better next year, with a ton of draft picks and the highest one in almost 30 years. He's not trading those picks for veterans, like he used to do. Like I said, what happens with Green, Daley, Tatar, and probably others in the next couple of years will clarify things considerably. As of right now it looks like a rebuild to me. Our definitions may vary.

 

[StargateSG1]

Irrelevant. The point is different circumstances prompted different actions. I'm not defending the actions, but pointing out that we should not be ignoring the particular circumstances when drawing generalized conclusions.

Oh, it's very relevant.
The "circumstances" don't effect the player's worth and talent.
So signing mediocre talent to albatross contracts when they would never be considered "the core", is wrong under any circumstances.

 

[Red Stanley]

Oh, it's very relevant.
The "circumstances" don't effect the player's worth and talent.
So signing mediocre talent to albatross contracts when they would never be considered "the core", is wrong under any circumstances.

It's not relevant to my point, which wasn't to defend signings or roster caps.

 

[StargateSG1]

It's not relevant to my point, which wasn't to defend signings or roster caps.

Not sure what you are trying to say then

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Judging from their play, I'm not seeing Nyq, Tatar, Mrazek, or Sheahan leading anybody regardless of age. Jury is still out on Nielsen. It would've been nice had our newer crop of skilled guys also turned out to have leadership qualities. And maybe they do in the locker room, they just don't show it on the ice.

As for rebuilding, that's exactly what's happening right now. We can debate how much Holland really means it till our fingers fall off from mashing they keyboard. The reality is that we're a bad team that's not projected to be any better next year, with a ton of draft picks and the highest one in almost 30 years. He's not trading those picks for veterans, like he used to do. Like I said, what happens with Green, Daley, Tatar, and probably others in the next couple of years will clarify things considerably. As of right now it looks like a rebuild to me. Our definitions may vary.

So we're rebuilding and not trying to veteran squeak our way into the playoffs as of, now?

Are we going to give ice time and responsibility to all our young players over veterans?

Are we playing mrazek over Howard?

Are we gonna trade away older players with term for picks and prospects (examples include Tatar, nyquist, Abby, helm, dekeyser)?

That's how you rebuild as it's been determined.

You can not do it differently in an attempt to avoid being bad and then when you in fact end up bad claim being bad was the plan all along.

 

[StargateSG1]

So we're rebuilding and not trying to veteran squeak our way into the playoffs as of, now?

Are we going to give ice time and responsibility to all our young players over veterans?

Are we playing mrazek over Howard?

Are we gonna trade away older players with term for picks and prospects (examples include Tatar, nyquist, Abby, helm, dekeyser)?

That's how you rebuild as it's been determined.

You can not do it differently in an attempt to avoid being bad and then when you in fact end up bad claim being bad was the plan all along.

I feel sorry for anyone trying to somehow "prove" that we are "rebuilding now".
Either these people have no idea of what they are talking about OR they are hired by the Wings PR department, to supplement the lapdog beat writers.

The strategy is called "Don't believe your eyes".

Think it's impossible?
I heard rumors it's actually true.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So we're rebuilding and not trying to veteran squeak our way into the playoffs as of, now?

Are we going to give ice time and responsibility to all our young players over veterans?

Are we playing mrazek over Howard?

Are we gonna trade away older players with term for picks and prospects (examples include Tatar, nyquist, Abby, helm, dekeyser)?

That's how you rebuild as it's been determined.

You can not do it differently in an attempt to avoid being bad and then when you in fact end up bad claim being bad was the plan all along.

How many times has a team planned on being bad? It really doesn't happen except in those rare, rare circumstances; for example after Toronto had been "accidentally" bad for a decade they decided to nuke the organization and be deliberately bad for a year or two.
Wings aren't yet in the mode where they have to burn it all down, but anyone looking at Witkowski and Daley as evidence they are strongly chasing the playoffs is greatly overrating those players. Those guys are like buying a spare tire for a car missing it's engine. If an engine magically appears (i.e. Larkin/Mantha/etc take giant leaps) it helps to have an extra tire, but if not you're still going nowhere. Unlike previous offseasons where Holland has chased big names, this is a clear shift towards not seeing the team as a spare part away from a run.

Your definition of a rebuild is way too narrow. There's nothing saying your losing years have to happen with only young players on the team or that you have to trade every veteran the moment you miss the playoffs. In fact losing with veterans is in many ways preferable to losing with kids. This board is in many ways a prime example of why; the veterans are taking 90% of the heat and the kids fly under the radar.
The timeline on a lot of our contracts show a larger youth movement likely happening 2-3 years from now. That's when guys like Hronek/VS/Rass/Cholo/etc could be ready, along with possible top 3-5 picks we get.

 

[Reddwit]

I feel sorry for anyone trying to somehow "prove" that we are "rebuilding now".
Either these people have no idea of what they are talking about OR they are hired by the Wings PR department, to supplement the lapdog beat writers.

The strategy is called "Don't believe your eyes".

Think it's impossible?
I heard rumors it's actually true.

I think there's a large swath of folks who believe that to be very possible. Among the non-casuals, we have a keen fanbase. A few bad apples really haven't spoiled the bunch in this case.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Outside of near delusion, I can't see any realistic argument that Holland has rebuilding as the purpose behind what he's done.

Well sure, because most of the people here are decidedly binary thinkers when it comes to stuff like this. They seem to think that unless a team pours gasoline on itself and sucks a lit match they aren't rebuilding, and/or that unless a team is going to the wall and making gigantic moves they aren't trying to win a Cup.

Those are both extremes in approach.

What it's always seemed to me that Detroit was doing is: a) trying to remain mostly competitive and definitely playoff worthy while b) maintaining a solid influx of young players and c) preserving a significant amount of cap flexibility in the 2-4 year window.

They've been, in effect, trying to sort of win and sort of rebuild at the same time. So no, I don't think it's accurate to say that rebuilding has been THE purpose behind what the Wings have done in the recent past, but I think it's been A purpose. One of many. Certainly not the most important purpose (I'd put 'raking in huge franchise value increases and yearly profits as #'s 1 and 2), but it's in the top 5.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Well sure, because most of the people here are decidedly binary thinkers when it comes to stuff like this. They seem to think that unless a team pours gasoline on itself and sucks a lit match they aren't rebuilding, and/or that unless a team is going to the wall and making gigantic moves they aren't trying to win a Cup.

Those are both extremes in approach.

What it's always seemed to me that Detroit was doing is: a) trying to remain mostly competitive and definitely playoff worthy while b) maintaining a solid influx of young players and c) preserving a significant amount of cap flexibility in the 2-4 year window.

They've been, in effect, trying to sort of win and sort of rebuild at the same time. So no, I don't think it's accurate to say that rebuilding has been THE purpose behind what the Wings have done in the recent past, but I think it's been A purpose. One of many. Certainly not the most important purpose (I'd put 'raking in huge franchise value increases and yearly profits as #'s 1 and 2), but it's in the top 5.

How much profit did the DRW make last season

The last stat I have found was for 2015-2016 in which we made 6.1 million putting us in the bottom ten in terms of profit of all 30 clubs.

 

[njx9]

Certainly not the most important purpose (I'd put 'raking in huge franchise value increases and yearly profits as #'s 1 and 2), but it's in the top 5.

And yet (per the 2015 and 2016 Forbes numbers), the team has averaged one of the lowest, operating incomes in the league for the last few years, and hasn't budged from #8 in total value. If the goal is 'huge' profit, Ken Holland is an abysmal failure. If the goal is increasing franchise value, he's decidedly average (5-6% ranks about 14th).

I think it's time to stop pretending that this 'franchise goal' is a) actually a goal that's being met and b) still useful as a way to shut down any and all discussion outside the bounds of what *you* specifically want to have.

 

[Frk It]

What it's always seemed to me that Detroit was doing is: a) trying to remain mostly competitive and definitely playoff worthy while b) maintaining a solid influx of young players and c) preserving a significant amount of cap flexibility in the 2-4 year window.

'Was doing' suggests past tense, and if their goal 2-4 years ago was to preserve cap flexibility over the next 2-4 years, then boy they failed on that one.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Easily the worst cap situation in the league. Zero flexibility and, worst of all, zero potential.

You can spin it any way you'd like. It's bad.

 

[jolly roger]

Easily the worst cap situation in the league. Zero flexibility and, worst of all, zero potential.

You can spin it any way you'd like. It's bad.

It is so bad that I really think he's going to trade AA for picks or some chicken **** D man and really **** off the fan base.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

HD liked to mention how certain contracts would come off the books in a couple years so the Wings cap situation would clear up. He would conveniently ignore the very real possibility that Holland would spend any freed up cap space immediately because he wanted to ice a competitive team. Kinda like he did this season with Trevor Daley and Tomas Tatar. Anyone think Mike Green's six million in cap space is gonna go unused? Larkin and Mantha will eat up a good portion of it, but Holland will spend the remainder on another spare part.

You can't rebuild and stay competitive at the same time. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum. It's like trying to **** and throw up in the toilet at the same time. Trying to stay in the middle won't give you a competitive roster now or in the future. See the 2014-2015, 2015-2016, 2016-2017 Detroit Red Wings and then six months from now also see the 2017-2018 Detroit Red Wings when they fail to make the playoffs again while at the same time icing the most expensive roster in the league.

Anyone wanna know what the Wings GF and GA was during the Wings last three sightseeing trips to the playoffs? In 17 games they scored 29 goals and gave up 43. They averaged less than two goals a game.

So the cap situation won't improve if Holland wants to remain "competitive."

 

[Flowah]

Even outside analysts are puzzled about our cap spending. They make the same observations some of us have made. Despite the sarcastically asked "are you a professional GM?" as an invalid retort, the critiques we're making are hardly anything you need to be an expert to make.

I don't need to be a doctor to realize that when doctors leave sponges and gloves inside patience during surgery and stitch them back up that someone messed up. (It's happened...) I don't need to be an NHL GM to realize that having zero cap space when you're a lottery team doesn't make much sense and that having cap space gives you flexibility and options which is a good thing, not only if an actual stud UFA pops up once in a blue moon but if you want to make trades for players with bloated contracts in exchange for picks. It's one thing to spend towards the cap if you're going to be competitive. It makes basically no sense to spend towards the cap if you're going to be a bottom feeder, which we are very likely to be.

 

[Red Stanley]

So we're rebuilding and not trying to veteran squeak our way into the playoffs as of, now?

If you think Trevor Daley will make us come even close to squeaking into the playoffs, then I will have to disagree with you.

Are we going to give ice time and responsibility to all our young players over veterans?

I hope that, if not all, most will see more ice time and responsibility. It may and should happen. Your question implies that it will not, otherwise I don't see why you're even asking it. Unfortunately, I can neither confirm, nor deny future events of this kind.

Are we playing mrazek over Howard?

They'll play whoever is performing better, or is healthier. What does this have to do with rebuilding?

Are we gonna trade away older players with term for picks and prospects (examples include Tatar, nyquist, Abby, helm, dekeyser)?

Hopefully trade Tatar. Hopefully trade Nyq. Can't trade Abby or Helm even if they wanted to. Don't see why DK is on this list. He's a solid 27 year old defenseman on a team that desperately needs defensive depth.

That's how you rebuild as it's been determined.

You can not do it differently in an attempt to avoid being bad and then when you in fact end up bad claim being bad was the plan all along.

Selling at the TDL, stockpiling picks and using them all in the draft are all clear signs of a rebuild. Whether it'll continue, or if it's proactive enough are different discussions. And since we're so obsessed with what Holland says to the press, here's a direct quote:

"In order to become an elite team, you need elite players in their prime. We're trying to do that through the draft ... At the end of the day it's a draft-pick league and you have to build your foundation through the draft." - Ken Holland 2017​

I feel sorry for anyone trying to somehow "prove" that we are "rebuilding now".
Either these people have no idea of what they are talking about OR they are hired by the Wings PR department, to supplement the lapdog beat writers.

The strategy is called "Don't believe your eyes".

Think it's impossible?
I heard rumors it's actually true.

I'm starting to think that I should be compensated for the mental anguish of reading some posts.

 

[jkutswings]

Selling expiring UFA contracts of minor players at the trade deadline isn't a clear sign of a rebuild. It's smart asset management for any team that isn't either on the short list of championship contenders, or one deadline acquisition from being on said list.

Unfortunately, it would take a whole lot of TDL sell-offs to make up for all the bad contracts this team is toting.

 

[Martinez]

Challenge: Find a player on our team that is underpaid ( no ELC's )