Salary Cap: Red Wings 2017-18 cap discussion

[Shaman464]

Challenge: Find a player on our team that is underpaid ( no ELC's )

Maybe Z?

 

[Martinez]

Maybe Z?

Yeah, that's fair.

 

[Mijatovic]

Z is maybe underpaid for yearly salary. Till you consider he's still under contract for another 4 years.

 

[HockeyinHD]

And yet (per the 2015 and 2016 Forbes numbers), the team has averaged one of the lowest, operating incomes in the league for the last few years, and hasn't budged from #8 in total value. If the goal is 'huge' profit, Ken Holland is an abysmal failure. If the goal is increasing franchise value, he's decidedly average (5-6% ranks about 14th).

Where did the half a bil they got from Detroit fit in?

Detroit's been a profitable team year over year while also remaining in position to ask for (and then get) a gigantic pile of free muni cash, not to mention the huge piles of money they made in the short terms after the salary rollbacks and whatnot.

If you think it's accurate to criticize Holland's financial stewardship of the team... hey, go at it I guess. I don't see anything there to support that position beyond mad libbing some Holland insults.

I think it's time to stop pretending that this 'franchise goal' is a) actually a goal that's being met and b) still useful as a way to shut down any and all discussion outside the bounds of what *you* specifically want to have.

Nah. You guys can discuss anything you want, obviously. I'll just occasionally point out that what you want obviously isn't what they want, and you (or I) don't get a vote. If you think being reminded of wider context or different priorities is 'shutting down discussion', however, I can't help you out with that. People can choose to interpret whatever they want however they want.

 

[HockeyinHD]

'Was doing' suggests past tense,

As in, 'what they've been doing up until this moment.' They could choose to change tactics tomorrow. I don;t think they will, but anyway...

and if their goal 2-4 years ago was to preserve cap flexibility over the next 2-4 years, then boy they failed on that one.

How? The cap floor is 55.4 mil this year and it'll probably be around that next year. They're a Howard trade away from sitting right on it even as close up as y+1, and that's the real number people need to look at when they talk about 'flexibility', because the Wings have to spend 55+ mil regardless of their organizational strategy anyway.

If Detroit decided to change philosophy, they're nowhere close to being cap prevented from doing so.

 

[HockeyinHD]

HD liked to mention how certain contracts would come off the books in a couple years so the Wings cap situation would clear up. He would conveniently ignore the very real possibility that Holland would spend any freed up cap space immediately because he wanted to ice a competitive team.

I'm not sure you understand what 'flexibility' is.

Kinda like he did this season with Trevor Daley and Tomas Tatar. Anyone think Mike Green's six million in cap space is gonna go unused?

Like ^.

Flexibility in this context means having a cap situation that would allow the team to either add players in UFA to improve/maintain the roster or to refrain from doing so and not have to engage in wild gymnastics to meet the cap floor.

So, Holland has the cap set up in such a manner that the team is not committed before the fact to either path. There are some obvious drawbacks to that approach, similar to many other middle of the road approaches. By leaving that non-tank option, the pro-tank portion of the fanbase will continue to be incensed.

Only time will tell when (or if) ownership wants the team to go in another philosophical direction.

You can't rebuild and stay competitive at the same time.

Under your definitions of 'rebuild' and 'competitive', no. Under broader and more generally used definitions, yes.

So the cap situation won't improve if Holland wants to remain "competitive."

Well, obviously. If the philosophy is to make the playoffs we'll continue to see what we've seen to date, namely that the year to year cap will continue to be at or near max and there'll be a couple 4+ mil contracts coming off the books each year to allow Holland (or whoever) room to tweak the roster. If the philosophy changes to align more closely to your oft-repeated preference, then the team is merely allowing those expiring deals to lapse without re-spending them away from being on the cap floor.

 

[Frk It]

How? The cap floor is 55.4 mil this year and it'll probably be around that next year. They're a Howard trade away from sitting right on it even as close up as y+1, and that's the real number people need to look at when they talk about 'flexibility', because the Wings have to spend 55+ mil regardless of their organizational strategy anyway.

If Detroit decided to change philosophy, they're nowhere close to being cap prevented from doing so.

Because this is the opposite of cap flexibility.

 

[Heaton]

In an effort to keep this thread on topic, I moved a bunch of posts to this thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2371225&page=14

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I see

If any team has ANY money whatsoever to spend prior to the next season, regardless of how much or why (i.e. the cap rising) then that's called cap flexibility.

Fair enough point, plus one for kenny and all 30 other GMs, bravo lads.

 

[njx9]

Where did the half a bil they got from Detroit fit in?

Into paying for the arena? Do you think that's profit? It might be useful to take some intro finance.

Detroit's been a profitable team year over year while also remaining in position to ask for (and then get) a gigantic pile of free muni cash, not to mention the huge piles of money they made in the short terms after the salary rollbacks and whatnot.

You suggested huge profits. Are you now walking that back in light of clear evidence to the contrary?

If you think it's accurate to criticize Holland's financial stewardship of the team... hey, go at it I guess. I don't see anything there to support that position beyond mad libbing some Holland insults.

And, of course, comparing him to other GMs in the same line of work. Do you think it's 'mad libbing Holland insults' to suggest that his performance in comparison to his peers is, obviously and demonstrably, poor? Do you think your inability to see results that are below average in nearly every area YoY is based on a refusal to open your eyes, or something else entirely?

Nah. You guys can discuss anything you want, obviously. I'll just occasionally point out that what you want obviously isn't what they want, and you (or I) don't get a vote. If you think being reminded of wider context or different priorities is 'shutting down discussion', however, I can't help you out with that. People can choose to interpret whatever they want however they want.

I think pointing that out, anytime someone says "boy, I sure wish the team would do X instead of repeatedly doing Y", utterly useless and adds nothing to the discussion. If it makes you feel better about being smarter than everyone else for pointing out the obvious, then by all means, go for it.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

So i guess Helm and Gator gave the Wings a ton of financial flexibility going forward.

Does a person that lives paycheck to paycheck have a ton of financial flexibility?

Holland is spending every last cent so that he can simply try to survive (aka make the playoffs) and the Wings won't be making the playoffs again for a very long time.

 

[Henkka]

Interesting that now, after signing Rasmussen to ELC, they are 8 333 dollars under the cap, after Franzen is put on LTIR.

Athanasiou is still unsigned, but the math works now for day 1.

 

[Frk It]

Interesting that now, after signing Rasmussen to ELC, they are 8 333 dollars under the cap, after Franzen is put on LTIR.

Athanasiou is still unsigned, but the math works now for day 1.

Not sure why it would, his caphit is irrelevant since he won't be on the team.

 

[Henkka]

Not sure why it would, his caphit is irrelevant since he won't be on the team.

You should know after 12 years since the cap was implemented, that these 1st day cap numbers will matter on LTIR occasions.

Teams will use these ELCs to fix the numbers on a best possible way. It's just the 1st day number and Rasmussen doesn't have to see the ice, but it does the number work.

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

Looks like we'll go with the option 2.

 

[Frk It]

You should know after 12 years since the cap was implemented, that these 1st day cap numbers will matter on LTIR occasions.

Teams will use these ELCs to fix the numbers on a best possible way. It's just the 1st day number and Rasmussen doesn't have to see the ice, but it does the number work.

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

Looks like we'll go with the option 2.

But aren't there several guys making the same (or less) as Rasmussen we could have done that with prior to his signing?

Still don't see how him signing changes anything from a cap perspective.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Interesting that now, after signing Rasmussen to ELC, they are 8 333 dollars under the cap, after Franzen is put on LTIR.

Athanasiou is still unsigned, but the math works now for day 1.

Sure, the math works if you're ok with one of the team's promising young players not being signed.

 

[jolly roger]

Sure, the math works if you're ok with one of the team's promising young players not being signed.

I'm telling you Holland is going to move him for picks and throw in Sheahan to reduce cap space for the 35 year old D man he trades for to play with Daley. JMO.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

You should know after 12 years since the cap was implemented, that these 1st day cap numbers will matter on LTIR occasions.

Teams will use these ELCs to fix the numbers on a best possible way. It's just the 1st day number and Rasmussen doesn't have to see the ice, but it does the number work.

https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

Looks like we'll go with the option 2.

We were doing the 11th hour LTIR tango anyway. Rasmussen signing doesn't change that. His signing was just business as usual.

AA not being signed yet is a bit surprising for for me, though. I thought for sure once the Tatar situation was cleared up, AA would have been inked fairly quickly afterwards.

 

[Henkka]

We were doing the 11th hour LTIR tango anyway. Rasmussen signing doesn't change that. His signing was just business as usual.

AA not being signed yet is a bit surprising for for me, though. I thought for sure once the Tatar situation was cleared up, AA would have been inked fairly quickly afterwards.

Yeah, the trick contract could have been Cholowskis 925k with same caphit. Point is that those numbers will maximize the LTIR cap space, when Mule is put there. And when that space is maximized, a minimal number of performance bonuses will slide to next season cap.

Roster spot limits on the first day is anything between 18+2 skaters+goalies to 23 players (at least 18 skaters and 2 goalies)

 

[MinJaBen]

As a non-Wings fan I am curious about what you all think about the possibility of Zetterberg being traded to help solve your cap issues, get some futures for your rebuild, and make room for the younger guys. If he could possibly be available, what kind of assets you think the organization would be looking for in return?

Thanks for the help.

 

[InjuredChoker]

As a non-Wings fan I am curious about what you all think about the possibility of Zetterberg being traded to help solve your cap issues, get some futures for your rebuild, and make room for the younger guys. If he could possibly be available, what kind of assets you think the organization would be looking for in return?

Thanks for the help.

he won't be traded unless he asks for it. just to clear cap space, zero percent chance.

 

[MinJaBen]

he won't be traded unless he asks for it. just to clear cap space, zero percent chance.

I didn't mean to imply that he'd be shopped as a cap dump, but more of a option if another team came inquiring whether or not he was available.

 

[Henkka]

As a non-Wings fan I am curious about what you all think about the possibility of Zetterberg being traded to help solve your cap issues, get some futures for your rebuild, and make room for the younger guys. If he could possibly be available, what kind of assets you think the organization would be looking for in return?

Thanks for the help.

We don't have any real cap issues to start considering that kind of major things.

It just minor number tweakings at season start and there we go.

 

[Bench]

I didn't mean to imply that he'd be shopped as a cap dump, but more of a option if another team came inquiring whether or not he was available.

He wouldn't be available unless he demanded a trade.

 

[BinCookin]

As a non-Wings fan I am curious about what you all think about the possibility of Zetterberg being traded to help solve your cap issues, get some futures for your rebuild, and make room for the younger guys. If he could possibly be available, what kind of assets you think the organization would be looking for in return?

Thanks for the help.

this may sound strange but no Z is not available even if we do a rebuild...

the management wants him to retire as a life long wing.
We currently are using him as a role model for kids.
In all truth I dont even think another team would want him, considering his cap hit is 6 mil.