Red Kelly Defenceman or Forward

[Canadiens1958]

Have posted previously about Red Kelly playing forward with the Detroit Red Wings.With the release of significant NHL archival data recently further research into this topic was facilitated. The following,while a work in progress, significantly advances our knowledge of Red Kelley's usage in Detroit and other multi-position players on other teams from the O6 era and before.

Red Kelly Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

1946-47 Toronto St. Mike's Roster:

Toronto St. Michael's 1946-47 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Gamecentre - sample:

Detroit Red Wings - Boston Bruins - December 5th, 1957

Couple of points about the gamecenter data and game sheets in general.

Game sheets usually have the skaters listed as forwards and defencemen plus the goalie(s) as well as the named starting line-up for each team. Starting line-ups for each team have to take the opening faceoff or its a minor penalty against the offending team. The starting line-up data is missing from the archival data. Rather unfortunate.

Positional designations for skaters are not binding. Anytime during a game a forward may play defence and vice versa.

Background

The Red Wings under Jack Adams tended to deploy certain players as forwards and defencemen - Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe, Red Kelly, Marcel Pronovost, Gerry Odrowski etc. Question that remains is when and how long?

Red Kelly a forward(C/LW) with the 1946-47 Memorial Cup St.Mike's team joined the Red Wings for the 1947-48 season and is listed as a defenceman. Kelly never played in the minors. Rather unique transition for a twenty year old.

December 8, 1957 La Patrie article clearly refers to Red Kelly being moved to forward:

La Patrie - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Game center and other sources with positional data do not account for this. Yet Red Kelly after a 1956-57 season where he received 98 votes as a 1ast AST defenceman and 42 Norris votes as the runner-up

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/103881285/

To at best negligible AST and Norris consideration for the 1957-58 NHL season.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/103881313/
More shortly.

Click to read more...

 

[Killion]

Red Kelly a forward(C/LW) with the 1946-47 Memorial Cup St.Mike's team joined the Red Wings for the 1947-48 season and is listed as a defenceman. Kelly never played in the minors. Rather unique transition for a twenty year old.

Yeah, that crop of players coming out of St. Mikes in 1947 having won the Memorial Cup heralded as "St. Michaels Team of the Century", with a number of players stepping directly onto NHL ice the following fall. Ed Sandford, one of your Montreal boys, the great Fleming MacKell of NDG who Toronto robbed the Canadiens of a few years earlier in putting him on their negotiating list at 1 minute past midnight on the date required, beating Montreal by 7hrs.... Fleming winning a couple of Cups with the Leafs before being traded to Boston where he played for many a year through the 50's.... retired to Montreal, owned a Texaco Station, GM Car Dealership as well.... but back to Red Kelly....

His father had attended St. Mikes & Red was sent to finish his education there however not on a scholarship as a hockey player but just as a regular student. He had of course played hockey as a kid, tried out for the Jr. A Majors & was cut after the first practice; he then tried out for the Jr. B Buzzers... cut after one practice.... then tried out for the Midget team, again, cut after the first tryout & practice. However, one of his friends who played shinny with him & who was on the Midget team told the Coach to "take another look" & so he did finally make it, playing on the 3rd line, sometimes Center, sometimes Winger, sometimes Defence. All positions, everything but Goal. Thats the way St. Mikes operated with some players. They'd move guys around capable of it, give them the benefit of varying perspectives, responsibilities. Playing on the 3rd line & as a utility player with the Midgets, Buzzers & Majors became a thing with Kelly, Utility Man, as it then did throughout his pro career.

 

[Killion]

The Red Wings under Jack Adams tended to deploy certain players as forwards and defencemen - Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe, Red Kelly, Marcel Pronovost, Gerry Odrowski etc. Question that remains is when and how long?

For how long had Adams been playing Forwards as Defencemen or Defencemen as Forwards on the PP & PK I know not, however... you did name yet another St. Mikes alumni and one with an interesting pedigree albeit less than stellar professional career, but solid none the less, name Gerry Odrowski, "Snowy" as he was called, folically challenged, began losing his hair at age 10, and of course took quite the ribbing over it.

Gerry Odrowski's Coach as a kid in Sundridge Ontario was Bucko McDonald, the same Bucko McDonald who Coached Bobby Orr at the ages of 11 & 12 (McDonald Coached amateur teams in Sundridge, Bracebridge & Parry Sound) and it was he who converted Orr from a Forward/Center to Defenceman. Gerry credits Bucko with his pro career, and while a hard working stay at home Defenceman much like Bucko was during his career, he did play forward at times during the PK, took Face-offs & generally mixed up beginning with his play for Sundridge followed later on at St. Mikes, with SS Marie of the NOHA, with Detroit and at various stops over his much traveled career including the WHA.

Wilfred Bucko McDonald was an outlier who grew up playing Lacrosse, turning pro, playing for Conn Smythes Toronto Maple Leafs pro Lacrosse team out of Maple Leaf Gardens when the Gardens opened in 1931. Indeed, McDonald so good at the game he's in several Halls of Fame as a result. However, and in his early 20's, his pro Lacrosse career cut short with the demise of the pro league & unable to play Sr Lacrosse as he'd been a paid professional, at tethers end, encouraged by Smythe, decided to try and pick up hockey. So a very late starter indeed, had to learn how to skate & so on at like 21-22, and while not pretty or terribly mobile he could get around enough to be delivering some pretty devastating checks. Impressed, Smythe signed him, sent to the Buffalo Bisons of the IAHL where he learned the game over a couple of seasons, eventually traded to Detroit...

... thats right, Detroit. Jolly Jack & the Red Wings. He'd improved that much, & fortuitous to say the least. Now, Bucko there having learned the game as an adult didnt "think" the game the way most did, those who'd begun playing it as kids, he was "thinking" it more like a Box Lacrosse player & in that game, the Defencemen do indeed join, often lead the rush, a Forward then falling back to cover the Defenders adventures deep into enemy territory. Additionally, Defenders & Forwards interchangeable on the PP & PK in Lacrosse so I dont half wonder if perhaps Bucko didnt introduce or suggest this stratagem to Jack Adams in the mid 30's, tried & tested true, deployed thereafter with considerable success in the years, decades that followed. Copied widely. Imlach for example with the Aces, in Springfield, with the Leafs. Certainly it was being deployed in the 40's at the Senior, Junior & even amateur levels, so if we roll on back yet another decade to the 30's & Bucko McDonald.... maybe thats when Adams began deploying Defencemen as Centers or Wingers & vice-versa. Or are there even earlier examples this period that perhaps you or someone else aware of?.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

For how long had Adams been playing Forwards as Defencemen or Defencemen as Forwards on the PP & PK I know not, however... you did name yet another St. Mikes alumni and one with an interesting pedigree albeit less than stellar professional career, but solid none the less, name Gerry Odrowski, "Snowy" as he was called, folically challenged, began losing his hair at age 10, and of course took quite the ribbing over it.

Gerry Odrowski's Coach as a kid in Sundridge Ontario was Bucko McDonald, the same Bucko McDonald who Coached Bobby Orr at the ages of 11 & 12 (McDonald Coached amateur teams in Sundridge, Bracebridge & Parry Sound) and it was he who converted Orr from a Forward/Center to Defenceman. Gerry credits Bucko with his pro career, and while a hard working stay at home Defenceman much like Bucko was during his career, he did play forward at times during the PK, took Face-offs & generally mixed up beginning with his play for Sundridge followed later on at St. Mikes, with SS Marie of the NOHA, with Detroit and at various stops over his much traveled career including the WHA.

Wilfred Bucko McDonald was an outlier who grew up playing Lacrosse, turning pro, playing for Conn Smythes Toronto Maple Leafs pro Lacrosse team out of Maple Leaf Gardens when the Gardens opened in 1931. Indeed, McDonald so good at the game he's in several Halls of Fame as a result. However, and in his early 20's, his pro Lacrosse career cut short with the demise of the pro league & unable to play Sr Lacrosse as he'd been a paid professional, at tethers end, encouraged by Smythe, decided to try and pick up hockey. So a very late starter indeed, had to learn how to skate & so on at like 21-22, and while not pretty or terribly mobile he could get around enough to be delivering some pretty devastating checks. Impressed, Smythe signed him, sent to the Buffalo Bisons of the IAHL where he learned the game over a couple of seasons, eventually traded to Detroit...

... thats right, Detroit. Jolly Jack & the Red Wings. He'd improved that much, & fortuitous to say the least. Now, Bucko there having learned the game as an adult didnt "think" the game the way most did, those who'd begun playing it as kids, he was "thinking" it more like a Box Lacrosse player & in that game, the Defencemen do indeed join, often lead the rush, a Forward then falling back to cover the Defenders adventures deep into enemy territory. Additionally, Defenders & Forwards interchangeable on the PP & PK in Lacrosse so I dont half wonder if perhaps Bucko didnt introduce or suggest this stratagem to Jack Adams in the mid 30's, tried & tested true, deployed thereafter with considerable success in the years, decades that followed. Copied widely. Imlach for example with the Aces, in Springfield, with the Leafs. Certainly it was being deployed in the 40's at the Senior, Junior & even amateur levels, so if we roll on back yet another decade to the 30's & Bucko McDonald.... maybe thats when Adams began deploying Defencemen as Centers or Wingers & vice-versa. Or are there even earlier examples this period that perhaps you or someone else aware of?.....

Thanks for the Red Kelly junior background and the BuckoMcDonald lacrosse connection.Interesting and saved keystrokes at this end. Tomorrow will look at the 1957-58 season.

 

[Big Phil]

If this is a question, I take him as a defenseman every time. He was fine as a forward, helped the Leafs tremendously, but there is a reason he is an all-time great at defense.

 

[Canadiens1958]

If this is a question, I take him as a defenseman every time. He was fine as a forward, helped the Leafs tremendously, but there is a reason he is an all-time great at defense.

Kelly' AST and Norris recognition dropped significantly his last three seasons in Detroit. Getting to the reason why?

 

[Canadiens1958]

1957-58 first half AST voting:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Gazette, Dink Carroll column with AST voting comments:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Note comment about Kelly finally being moved back to defence after Sid Abel was named coach. Still this represented app 25 games at left wing.

Also note in the AST voting that MarcelPronovost and Ron Stewart(normally a RW) were tied for the last AST slot.

Rather interesting as MarcelPronovost missed 8 early season games. Kelly was moved to forward shortly after his return. Ron Stewart was moved back to defence when Tim Horton missed 17 early season games.

 

[Staniowski]

1957-58 first half AST voting:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Gazette, Dink Carroll column with AST voting comments:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Note comment about Kelly finally being moved back to defence after Sid Abel was named coach. Still this represented app 25 games at left wing.

Also note in the AST voting that MarcelPronovost and Ron Stewart(normally a RW) were tied for the last AST slot.

Rather interesting as MarcelPronovost missed 8 early season games. Kelly was moved to forward shortly after his return. Ron Stewart was moved back to defence when Tim Horton missed 17 early season games.

"The man is playing the game as if he invented it and holds the patent rights". About Doug Harvey.

Milt Schmidt said Beliveau and Apps were the 2 best centres he played against.

Do you know anything about this "All-Time All-Star Poll" by Sport Magazine?

 

[Canadiens1958]

"The man is playing the game as if he invented it and holds the patent rights". About Doug Harvey.

Milt Schmidt said Beliveau and Apps were the 2 best centres he played against.

Do you know anything about this "All-Time All-Star Poll" by Sport Magazine?

No - another item for the research bucket list.

 

[Big Phil]

Kelly' AST and Norris recognition dropped significantly his last three seasons in Detroit. Getting to the reason why?

All I was saying is that he is a better all-time defenseman than a forward. That is hardly a knock considering who we are talking about.

 

[Canadiens1958]

All I was saying is that he is a better all-time defenseman than a forward. That is hardly a knock considering who we are talking about.

Really not the point but I am happy for you regardless.

From 1950 onwards when Kelly played forward, replacing an injured Gordie Howe in the playoffs, it seems that his deployment by the Red Wings varied during each season. Playing forward for various lengths of time. 1957-58 seems to feature the longest stretch with a resulting impact on his AST and Norris voting.

During the 1957-58 stretch when Kelly played forward, the Red Wings went from a weak 5th place team to 2nd place when Sid Abel put Kelly back on defence. They finished 3rd.

Question of bringing additional value to the team in an era with smaller game day rosters.How this value should be evaluated for Red Kelly and similar players is another discussion.Obviously the traditional counting of ASTs and trophy voting falls short.

 

[Killion]

Question of bringing additional value to the team in an era with smaller game day rosters.How this value should be evaluated for Red Kelly and similar players is another discussion.Obviously the traditional counting of ASTs and trophy voting falls short.

I've come across a few who actually rate Red Kelly as the 2nd Best All Time NHL Player right behind Gretzky, and ya, ahead of Orr, Howe etc. Frank Boucher (another Wayne Gretzky before Wayne Gretzky) thought it was Kelly who was the key component to the early through mid-50's Wings successes, not Howe, not Lindsay or Sawchuk etc. This was a guy who Mastered the two most difficult positions to play, Center & Defence. Hockey IQ right off the charts. In Toronto, it was his presence at Center with Nevin & Frank Mahovlich that was a quieting and edifying factor on the latter in particular that was of tremendous benefit to the realization eventually of Frank's potential.... and to think that Leafs Head Scout Squib Walker.... with Kelly right under his nose at St. Mikes didnt think he'd ever amount to much... lets him skate right into the Red Wings lineup straight out of Junior. Unbelievable.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I've often wondered how dominant was Kelly defensively compared to his counterpart Doug Harvey or other top Dmen of the 1950's.

IIRC Tommy Ivan was a bit more of an offensively slanted coach, although I do recall him being quite innovative with the more modern box formation on the PK.

 

[scribe114]

I have a subscription to the Detroit Free Press archives on newspapers.com, so I will see what I can dig up from the era on Kelly playing Forward at various times.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I have a subscription to the Detroit Free Press archives on newspapers.com, so I will see what I can dig up from the era on Kelly playing Forward at various times.

Thank you for the offer.By Sunday evening I will send you a list of potential seasons and time frames.

 

[scribe114]

Thank you for the offer.By Sunday evening I will send you a list of potential seasons and time frames.

I have read some articles discussing him playing forward from time to time. Lot's of coverage of Kelly throughout the 50's in the Detroit papers. Read a lot about the Lindsay trade in 1957, and it showed how much pull Jack Adams had with the local writers. Not much about Lindsay losing the Captaincy to Kelly after the 1956 season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Jack Adams has always struck me as an overbearing asshole who probably cost the Red Wings more success in the long run.

 

[Killion]

Jack Adams has always struck me as an overbearing ******* who probably cost the Red Wings more success in the long run.

.... ya, real piece of work. clearly though had a deep and abiding love for the game so not all bad. his interpersonal dealings with the players pretty abhorrent at times. mind-blowing record when you look at it.... 7 Stanley Cups, 12 first place finishes... joining Detroit when they were the Cougars in 1926/27.... always on a one year contract, year to year right through until 61/62. 44yrs in the game at the pro level as a Player, Coach & GM.

As a Player he won 2 Stanley Cups, leaving home at 19 beginning his journey in the very rough & rugged Northern Michigan & Calumet Pro League, playing against men... many of them absolutely homicidal.Nice Boy from the Lakehead, it was either chase his dream to play pro, carve a life out for himself in hockey or... carry on working at the grain elevators in Thunder Bay for 22 cents an hour, 12 hours a day... for the rest of your life... then you die.

So... He had to grow up fast, and a quick study he was, referred to as a "Bobcat on Skates". Wild A.N.I.M.A.L. When the going got crazy Jack went pro, full on psycho. After one particularly viscous game, Adams hospitalized, his Sister a Nurse therein, he lying there beat ta Hell, black & blue, taped up like a Mummy, sucking down his meals through a straw... well, she implores him to give up the game, that "it's changing you Jack" & so on, but he'd have none of it.... like something straight out of a Charles Dickens novel.

Won 2 Stanley Cups as a Player, a Hero in one of the series, really quite a decent player, Stats impressive... Very much a creature of his time & place, era. School of hard knocks, eat or be eaten and once committed to that path, never changed throughout his life, dealings, interactions. Its all he knew. Those year-year contracts, like a player, your only as good as your next shift, your next game, your next season. Doesnt matter what youve done in the past, what are you going to do for me RIGHT NOW, next game, next season & so on. How he lived, looked at & approached life. Performance based. How he went about it of course, not good. Devious, cunning, manipulative, petty... you name it. He learned all that from those he played for, from those he worked with & against in the NHL. Eat or be eaten. Real simple.

Interesting character though, well worth the study, taking time to look into. Understanding through knowledge. Wasnt the Monster he's so often portrayed as. Human. As I said a product of his time, era, background. Theres good there, lots of it actually.

 

[ImporterExporter]

.... ya, real piece of work. clearly though had a deep and abiding love for the game so not all bad. his interpersonal dealings with the players pretty abhorrent at times. mind-blowing record when you look at it.... 7 Stanley Cups, 12 first place finishes... joining Detroit when they were the Cougars in 1926/27.... always on a one year contract, year to year right through until 61/62. 44yrs in the game at the pro level as a Player, Coach & GM.

As a Player he won 2 Stanley Cups, leaving home at 19 beginning his journey in the very rough & rugged Northern Michigan & Calumet Pro League, playing against men... many of them absolutely homicidal.Nice Boy from the Lakehead, it was either chase his dream to play pro, carve a life out for himself in hockey or... carry on working at the grain elevators in Thunder Bay for 22 cents an hour, 12 hours a day... for the rest of your life... then you die.

So... He had to grow up fast, and a quick study he was, referred to as a "Bobcat on Skates". Wild A.N.I.M.A.L. When the going got crazy Jack went pro, full on psycho. After one particularly viscous game, Adams hospitalized, his Sister a Nurse therein, he lying there beat ta Hell, black & blue, taped up like a Mummy, sucking down his meals through a straw... well, she implores him to give up the game, that "it's changing you Jack" & so on, but he'd have none of it.... like something straight out of a Charles Dickens novel.

Won 2 Stanley Cups as a Player, a Hero in one of the series, really quite a decent player, Stats impressive... Very much a creature of his time & place, era. School of hard knocks, eat or be eaten and once committed to that path, never changed throughout his life, dealings, interactions. Its all he knew. Those year-year contracts, like a player, your only as good as your next shift, your next game, your next season. Doesnt matter what youve done in the past, what are you going to do for me RIGHT NOW, next game, next season & so on. How he lived, looked at & approached life. Performance based. How he went about it of course, not good. Devious, cunning, manipulative, petty... you name it. He learned all that from those he played for, from those he worked with & against in the NHL. Eat or be eaten. Real simple.

Interesting character though, well worth the study, taking time to look into. Understanding through knowledge. Wasnt the Monster he's so often portrayed as. Human. As I said a product of his time, era, background. Theres good there, lots of it actually.

Great write up.

I completely agree that it's hard to sometimes judge people through writing or 2nd hand information, especially when society and sports are so much different than they were 75+ years ago. It's hard to get over what he did to some of his players though, especially Ted Lindsay. Flat out lying to the press about him, black balling him and others when it came to the HoF, etc. I think Adams is man who couldn't swallow his pride and had an unmatched ability to micromange.

Here is a GREAT read by Lindsay himself: Well worth the few minutes.

Ted Lindsay Explains How Jack Adams 'Screwed' The Wings, Reflects On NHL Comeback

I personally place Tommy Gorman above Adams as far as builders go. Was a huge reason the NHL formed in the first place. Essentially built the Ottawa dynasty of the 20's, won back to back cups (as a coach) with 2 very poor teams in the 30's and then helped build the Cup winning Montreal teams of the 40's. And he did it having never played hockey. Gorman was an incredible judge of talent and was a noted players coach who always seemed to get the best out of his men. But he seems to be much more underappreciated despite all his success at the NHL level as a coach and GM.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I have a subscription to the Detroit Free Press archives on newspapers.com, so I will see what I can dig up from the era on Kelly playing Forward at various times.

Red Kelly's 1958-59 season is interesting in terms of deployment.

O6 teams carried 4 or 5 defencemen on their roster. Detroit started with 5, by November were up 6, staying with 6 until the last week of the season,then back to 5.

On the NHL Game Center sheets the additional defenceman more often than not is Jack McIntyre, an NHL/minor league tweener who could play LW/D. Throughout the season Kelly and McIntyre on game sheets appear as defencemen.

Playing Kelly as a forward would protect a leg injury by limiting shot blocking.

 

[scribe114]

Red Kelly's 1958-59 season is interesting in terms of deployment.

O6 teams carried 4 or 5 defencemen on their roster. Detroit started with 5, by November were up 6, staying with 6 until the last week of the season,then back to 5.

On the NHL Game Center sheets the additional defenceman more often than not is Jack McIntyre, an NHL/minor league tweener who could play LW/D. Throughout the season Kelly and McIntyre on game sheets appear as defencemen.

Playing Kelly as a forward would protect a leg injury by limiting shot blocking.

Let me pull the papers from the 58-59 season, and I will clip any articles that support and post them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Let me pull the papers from the 58-59 season, and I will clip any articles that support and post them.

Really appreciate the help.Thank you.

 

[scribe114]

Gents,

I was able to pull clippings from the Detroit Free Press from as far as 1954 where Kelly was used as a forward, as he was in the 7th Game of the Stanley Cup Finals on a line with Delvecchio and Jimmy Peters. He was either moved up to cover an injury, or added to a 4th line to match up with Montreal who employed 4 lines regularly. In 55-56 he replaced Lindsay on the Production Line with Howe and Dutch Reibel. Lindsay was moved down the the 2nd line centered by Delvecchio with Metro Prystai moving from Center to RW and Pavelich resuming his role on the checking line.

Outside of the 1950 Stanley Cup Finals where Kelly was moved up to Center after the Howe injury, from 1950-51 through the 1954-55 seasons, he was used exclusively on Defense as well as 56-57 when he made 1st Team status again and Lindsay had a career high in points scored.

It was 55-56, 57-58 and some note in the 59-60 season of moving Kelly up to forward to boost the offense or create an additional checking line. So it wasn’t really a decline of skills that cost Kelly Norris votes, it was time spent on the Forward/Checking lines which split the other Defenseman All-Star votes between Gadsby and Pronovost.

When I go back to the clippings I’ll add the amount of games Kelly logged at forward.

1955-56: Roughly 22-24 games played at Left Wing
1957-58: 17 Games as a forward before moving back to Defense in January of 1958.
1959-60: Abel is shifting Kelly or Jim Morrison to forward to fill in a 4th line to give the Wings depth against the Canadiens. Pete Googan was the extra Defenseman.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Gents,

I was able to pull clippings from the Detroit Free Press from as far as 1954 where Kelly was used as a forward, as he was in the 7th Game of the Stanley Cup Finals on a line with Delvecchio and Jimmy Peters. He was either moved up to cover an injury, or added to a 4th line to match up with Montreal who employed 4 lines regularly. In 55-56 he replaced Lindsay on the Production Line with Howe and Dutch Reibel.

Outside of the 1950 Stanley Cup Finals where Kelly was moved up to Center after the Howe injury, from 1950-51 through 1954-55 he was used exclusively on Defense as well as 56-57 when he made 1st Team status again.

It was 55-56, 57-58 and some note in the 59-60 season of moving Kelly up to forward to boost the offense or create an additional checking line. So it wasn’t really a decline of skills that cost Kelly Norris votes, it was time spent on the Forward/Checking lines.

When I go back to the clippings I’ll add the amount of games Kelly logged at forward.

Great job.

Couple of quick questions.

1950-51 Bob Goldham joined the Red Wings, playing thru 1955-56, giving them three solid to outstanding defencemen with Kelly and Marcel Pronovost. Any evidence of the Wings playing all three with Kelly at forward to protect leads late in the 3rd period of close games?

1958-59 season was there any mention of Kelly being hurt and playing thru the injury?

 

[Killion]

I dont know how many have read Red Kellys bio (The Red Kelly Story by Gregoire & Dupuis with Red Kelly), but theres an interesting quote from then Boston Coach & later GM Lynn Patrick (son of Lester) when asked one time who he'd pick for his club if he had a choice, Rocket Richard or Gordie Howe?.... to paraphrase... he said "neither, I'd pick Red Kelly, the best all round player in the League. All Star Defenceman and he can score goals too, play Forward. He to me the sparkplug of that team and when we play the Wings, its Kelly we focus on. Shut him down, you shut down Howe, Lindsay & the others".