Red Kelly Defenceman or Forward

[Canadiens1958]

I dont know how many have read Red Kellys bio (The Red Kelly Story by Gregoire & Dupuis with Red Kelly), but theres an interesting quote from then Boston Coach & later GM Lynn Patrick (son of Lester) when asked one time who he'd pick for his club if he had a choice, Rocket Richard or Gordie Howe?.... to paraphrase... he said "neither, I'd pick Red Kelly, the best all round player in the League. All Star Defenceman and he can score goals too, play Forward. He to me the sparkplug of that team and when we play the Wings, its Kelly we focus on. Shut him down, you shut down Howe, Lindsay & the others".

Definitely true in 1953 and 1957 when the Bruins shut down Kelly and upset the first place Wings in the semi-finals. However the same Bruins in the finals were not able to shut down Doug Harvey.

 

[Killion]

Definitely true in 1953 and 1957 when the Bruins shut down Kelly and upset the first place Wings in the semi-finals. However the same Bruins in the finals were not able to shut down Doug Harvey.

Harvey & Bouchard particularly effective in that final 5 game series in 1953. Clinical but still, all out war. Doug apparently left the ice upon conclusion of Game 5 & headed straight for the dressing room rather than sticking around, participating in the line-up handshake, highly unusual for the times, era. When asked why, words along the lines of "I banged them all series, they targeted & banged me, I hated them so why would I bother"?.

 

[scribe114]

Great job.

Couple of quick questions.

1950-51 Bob Goldham joined the Red Wings, playing thru 1955-56, giving them three solid to outstanding defencemen with Kelly and Marcel Pronovost. Any evidence of the Wings playing all three with Kelly at forward to protect leads late in the 3rd period of close games?

1958-59 season was there any mention of Kelly being hurt and playing thru the injury?

50-51: Kelly was only moved up to forward on the Penalty Kill from all I have been able to pull it was usually with Lindsay in the box and he would pair up with Howe up front taking the Face-Offs. Probably to get some fresher legs on the ice since Abel was slowing down and Pavelich had not come into his own as far as usage or established himself on the checking line.

Lineup that evening 1/18/51

Detroit: Sawchuk G, Reise RD, Kelly LD, Abel C Howe RW, Lindsay LW
Montreal: McNeil G, Harvey RD, MacPherson LD, Lach C, Richard RW, Olmstead LW.

Pored through all of the 50-51 articles with Kelly mentioned and there were only 2 mentioning him playing forward. Leo Reise was still in the rotation with Kelly, Goldham and Pronovost and Benny Woit was the 5th Defenseman. Pronovost and Woit pushed out Lee Fogolin Sr. Looks like Woit became Pronovost's partner after Reise Jr. was traded. 1951-52 and 1952-53 no mention of Kelly playing forward.

1958-59: Kelly missed three games with an ankle injury, Gordon Strate was called up to replace him and saw limited ice time. Kelly was out January 17th and back in the lineup on January 22nd. Few mentions of treatment through February a week after the Howe/Fontinato fight.

 

[scribe114]

I dont know how many have read Red Kellys bio (The Red Kelly Story by Gregoire & Dupuis with Red Kelly), but theres an interesting quote from then Boston Coach & later GM Lynn Patrick (son of Lester) when asked one time who he'd pick for his club if he had a choice, Rocket Richard or Gordie Howe?.... to paraphrase... he said "neither, I'd pick Red Kelly, the best all round player in the League. All Star Defenceman and he can score goals too, play Forward. He to me the sparkplug of that team and when we play the Wings, its Kelly we focus on. Shut him down, you shut down Howe, Lindsay & the others".

Bio was excellent and well written by Dupuis. I talk with him on the Hockey Books Facebook page whenever he pops in to plug some of his work.

 

[Canadiens1958]

50-51: Kelly was only moved up to forward on the Penalty Kill from all I have been able to pull it was usually with Lindsay in the box and he would pair up with Howe up front taking the Face-Offs. Probably to get some fresher legs on the ice since Abel was slowing down and Pavelich had not come into his own as far as usage or established himself on the checking line.

Pored through all of the 50-51 articles with Kelly mentioned and there were only 2 mentioning him playing forward. Leo Reise was still in the rotation with Kelly, Goldham and Pronovost and Benny Woit was the 5th Defenseman. Pronovost and Woit pushed out Lee Fogolin Sr. Looks like Woit became Pronovost's partner after Reise Jr. was traded. 1951-52 and 1952-53 no mention of Kelly playing forward.

1958-59: Kelly missed three games with an ankle injury, Gordon Strate was called up to replace him and saw limited ice time. Kelly was out January 17th and back in the lineup on January 22nd. Few mentions of treatment through February a week after the Howe/Fontinato fight.

Very interesting. Origins of the 3 defencemen PK. Various theories behind the strategy.

The ankle injury may have been a minor crack.

Great work

 

[scribe114]

Very interesting. Origins of the 3 defencemen PK. Various theories behind the strategy.

The ankle injury may have been a minor crack.

Great work

Thank you sir, let me know if you need any more info pulled.

Did notice the Wings stuck to having a RH shooting R/D pairing (Woit/Goldham) and they were interchangeable with Kelly and Pronovost who were responsible for moving the puck with the forwards to offset having 3 lines maybe? Was Montreal the only team with a 4 Line structure during most of the O6 era?

From what I can pick up in the papers, Bob Goldham seemed to be logging more ice time than Benny Woit probably on the PK. Going to see what I can pull up on the Jack Stewart trade to Chicago that brought Goldham to Detroit since they were pretty close in age.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thank you sir, let me know if you need any more info pulled.

Did notice the Wings stuck to having a RH shooting R/D pairing (Woit/Goldham) and they were interchangeable with Kelly and Pronovost who were responsible for moving the puck with the forwards to offset having 3 lines maybe? Was Montreal the only team with a 4 Line structure during most of the O6 era?

From what I can pick up in the papers, Bob Goldham seemed to be logging more ice time than Benny Woit probably on the PK. Going to see what I can pull up on the Jack Stewart trade to Chicago that brought Goldham to Detroit since they were pretty close in age.

In no particular order.

Woit is listed by HR as having played RW. This may be in a PK situation.

Jack Stewart trade.Stewart was born in 1917,Goldham in 1922. Adams probably saved on salary and Goldham played thru 1956 while Stewart retired in 1952. Big advantage Detroit.

Montreal using four lines. Somewhat under Dick Irvin,as much as possible under Toe Blake. Toronto as well but not as often. Chicago rarely,mainly in 1961 to counter Montreal.

Basic reason was RS scheduling. Montreal played at home Thursday and Saturday, away Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday, rare Thursday when the ice show was in town.Toronto played at home Wednesday and Saturday, away Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.

Scheduling was such that teams regularly played 3 in 4 and at times 4 in 5 when Montreal and Toronto played back-to-back Wed/Thurs. Fresh legs. Plus Montrealunder Blake emphasized speed.Also this gave Blake various match-up advantages.

 

[Killion]

^^^ Interesting stuff guys.... heres a great article that covers the evolution of Coaching over the last 50 years, since the 67/68 Expansion, however, it does include some anecdotal inf about the 06 era, Dick Irvin Sr, Blake & Bowman etc... bit of a read but well worth it. Very well written, edifying.

www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/from-xs-and-os-to-ipads-the-evolution-of-coaching-in-hockey/article34268774/

 

[Canadiens1958]

^^^ Interesting stuff guys.... heres a great article that covers the evolution of Coaching over the last 50 years, since the 67/68 Expansion, however, it does include some anecdotal inf about the 06 era, Dick Irvin Sr, Blake & Bowman etc... bit of a read but well worth it. Very well written, edifying.

www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/from-xs-and-os-to-ipads-the-evolution-of-coaching-in-hockey/article34268774/

Interesting article. A few points.

Teaching during the O6 era was the domain of the sponsored junior clubs and minor league teams. Getting the players ready for the parent NHL team.NHL veterans would help integrate young players into the nuances of playing on a specific line or pairing. Indy or semi-indy minor league teams like Springfield with Eddie Shore used to teach.

North/south hockey. True to a degreee. Each team had its own ideas about angles and arcs. Leafs favoured deep wide arcs out of the corner. When to break out of the lane, how to handle the center Red Line offside situation. Trailing and lead forward roles.

Cycling was frowned upon as opposed to puck movement. Basic issue with cycling was and is that half of the cycle involves taking the puck away from the net. This allows the defence to reset whereas puck movement does not.

"A wet bird never flies at night." Jackie Vernon.

 

[Killion]

Interesting article. A few points.

Teaching during the O6 era was the domain of the sponsored junior clubs and minor league teams. Getting the players ready for the parent NHL team.NHL veterans would help integrate young players into the nuances of playing on a specific line or pairing. Indy or semi-indy minor league teams like Springfield with Eddie Shore used to teach.

North/south hockey. True to a degreee. Each team had its own ideas about angles and arcs. Leafs favoured deep wide arcs out of the corner. When to break out of the lane, how to handle the center Red Line offside situation. Trailing and lead forward roles.

Cycling was frowned upon as opposed to puck movement. Basic issue with cycling was and is that half of the cycle involves taking the puck away from the net. This allows the defence to reset whereas puck movement does not.

"A wet bird never flies at night." Jackie Vernon.

Jackie Vernon huh? ... and ya, theres a lot of meat on that rather large bone of an article beginning with Dick Irvin Sr & his antecedents in Toronto, in Montreal drawing 2 lines down the dressing rooms chalk rink board when he arrived in Montreal & so & so on. A lot of fascinating inf from Bowman, the Coach out in Calgary & International play... just on & on & on..... sorry to take it a bit off-planet here with the Red Kelly thread however, provides for a pretty decent primer for folks who may not be entirely aware of the evolution of Coaching, how troops were deployed & trained, the value of utility players in creating 4th lines when you had a shorter bench & what was expected of players, how they were taught to approach the game, their responsibilities, adherence & obedience to the system. Red did all of that & more and later as a Coach, rather innovative guy. One who knew how to maximize limited depths of talent, adjusting to the modern era (his modern era, modern era post Expansion, into the 70's).

 

[byrone12]

It was recently the anniversary date for Bobby Orr setting the record for most career goals as a defenseman, with his 163rd goal scored against St Louis on January 4, 1973.

It was said that Orr broke the previous record set by Red Kelly.

Considering Red Kelly's frequent play as forward, what can be said about this record?
Was it a real milestone goal? Or can it even be verified?

 

[DJ Man]

It was recently the anniversary date for Bobby Orr setting the record for most career goals as a defenseman, with his 163rd goal scored against St Louis on January 4, 1973.

It was said that Orr broke the previous record set by Red Kelly.

Considering Red Kelly's frequent play as forward, what can be said about this record?
Was it a real milestone goal? Or can it even be verified?

It would appear that they used Kelly's goals with Detroit as his "defenseman career," ignoring his Toronto goals.

 

[VanIslander]

Canadiens1958 RIP.

Killion? Over 2 years since your last post. Miss you too man.

(Glad this thread was revived. Those two deserve it.)

 

[kaiser matias]

Canadiens1958 RIP.

Killion? Over 2 years since your last post. Miss you too man.

(Glad this thread was revived. Those two deserve it.)

It was quite the surprise to see those two at the top of the page here going back and forth. Really neat seeing that.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It was quite the surprise to see those two at the top of the page here going back and forth. Really neat seeing that.

Among other things we have lost, their writing styles added some flavor to the room.

 

[kaiser matias]

Among other things we have lost, their writing styles added some flavor to the room.

That's the biggest thing for me. They both had a very distinct style of writing. Obviously most of us do, but both of them just wrote in a way that suggested an earlier era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It would appear that they used Kelly's goals with Detroit as his "defenseman career," ignoring his Toronto goals.

That's mostly accurate. As far as I know, the major times Kelly played forward in Detroit:

• Kelly played LW for about 1/4 of 1955-56 due to injuries
• Kelly sometimes as the net front guy on the PP in various seasons