Rebuild/Tanking Thread/Tank Nation Squad GDT #14

[Daisy Jane]

So McDavid follows up his previous 5 point game with a 6 point game. Obscene.

Please hockey Gods.

don't do it to yourself.
it won't hurt so much if it doesn't happen

 

[Apotheosis]

don't do it to yourself.
it won't hurt so much if it doesn't happen

You can bookmark this post. If we win the lottery, I will make a video of me running outside in my underwear screaming Connor McJesus for 10 minutes straight.

 

[Daisy Jane]

You can bookmark this post. If we win the lottery, I will make a video of me running outside in my underwear screaming Connor McJesus for 10 minutes straight.

you and like everyone else.

 

[BlueBaron]

You can bookmark this post. If we win the lottery, I will make a video of me running outside in my underwear screaming Connor McJesus for 10 minutes straight.

Lol, maybe we should all gather at the ACC and run around it naked for the day.

 

[Diatomic]

So far the rebuild is looking good, I like that we've unloaded all these UFA's.

I can't wait till the offseason, really hoping we can sign alot more UFA's to cheap 1 or 2 year deal's like we did to Winnik and Santo. Pretty much got a 2nd, 4th, B-prospect and roster player for free. I like it!

 

[shelf]

Seeing the return that we got for our expiring free agents this year makes me even more upset we didnt do the same last year. We couldve have so many picks!!

Kulemin, Raymond, and Bolland were all worth a 2nd at minumum. McClement could have fetched a 3rd easy.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Sens win, awesome.

Hammond pulling the Gerber.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Hammond is the new JS Aubin

 

[LeafalCrusader]

1/2 tonight. Devils lose Sens win

 

[Liminality]

Oh wow didn't know Hammond was 27, thought he was younger for some reason. Was still good in the shutout though. Sens are looking up in the standings finally.

 

[Cor]

The separation between NJD/OTT and us continues to grow.

Tomorrow a Columbus win tomorrow, matched with a loss from us, would be huge

 

[Apotheosis]

you and like everyone else.

So I take it you are coming with us!

WOOOOHOOOOO LET'S START THE PARADE NOW

 

[scoringmachine]

Should we do a full rebuild

As a Flames fan I come in peace. The Flames need to take a page out of the Flames playbook if they want to become a sucessful team in the next few years. Basically this is what I would like to see Toronto do.

1. Trade both Kessel and Phaneuf. Kessel should get you a first rounder and some picks/prospects. Phaneuf may get a pick/prospects.
The reason to trade both is that Kessel is unhappy in Toronto and in the long term his value could sink and Toronto will not get much for him and now is a good time to trade him while his stock his high. Phaneuf needs to be traded to a team that does not need him to be a Number one dman. Phaneuf does not thrive well as the leader of team and if he does not have to be the leader I think his game may translate better on and off the ice.

2. The goalie situation is strange as both Toronto's goalies are not consistent enough and will need someone who can play more consistently in net. I think that they should target Antti Niemi from the Sharks. He is a free agent at season end and the Sharks from what I have been hearing may not resign him. Then Toronto has to decide which of the their two current goalies stay and who goes.
If Toronto really wants Niemi then they could trade Kessel to the Sharks for a second rounder, a roster player and a prospect. The second rounder becomes a first if the sharks make the playoff.

3. Hire a coach with a proven track record of winning and I like Dan Bylsma, Marc Crawford. I think both could handle the media in Toronto. Bylsma could be a question mark as he had some of the best players when he coached the Pens. Crawford does well when he coaches a big market team.

4. Second give your prospects a chance to play and show what they can do. When the Flames had Sutter he did not like to use the prospects in our farm and we ended up overworking our veterans and trading our farm. Since sutter was let go the Flames have been restocking their farm and using the farm more to make their hockey club better rather than consistently trading for veteran help.

Final thoughts is once Nonis gets the coach he wants which I think should be Dan Blysma then he can work with him to figure out the type of coaching style he will bring to the team and try to find the right players to play his system. With this rebuild it should take two years to get the team to be like the Flames playing a team that is hard to play against.

 

[613Leafer]

Seeing the return that we got for our expiring free agents this year makes me even more upset we didnt do the same last year. We couldve have so many picks!!

Kulemin, Raymond, and Bolland were all worth a 2nd at minumum. McClement could have fetched a 3rd easy.

MacArthur as well, plus Grabo should have been sold off in 2012 instead of signed to that deal. The net effect of us trading picks for depth veterans (2nd + two 4ths for Bolland, 2nd for Liles, 4th for O'Byrne, etc) while rarely getting value for our own players is huge.

Had we not traded for those above players, that's two more 2nds and three more 4ths. Then had we sold off our pending UFAs, Grabo could have gotten us a 1st, then MacArthur/Kulemin probably a 2nd + 3rd each, Raymond a 2nd, McClement a couple mid rounders.

Net difference is like six picks in the first two rounds + 6-7 mid-round picks. And its not hindsight, because plenty of people at the time thought we should have been selling these guys off, for exactly these reasons. If you dont have a solid foundation in place, you need to be heavily focused on asset management in order to maximize your odds of finding studs in the drafts. Which means as many extra picks as possible for guys who arent going to be around longterm.

 

[Daisy Jane]

So I take it you are coming with us!

WOOOOHOOOOO LET'S START THE PARADE NOW

lol no i'll not be in the underwear running if we get mcdavid. i'll be laughing at the rapid 180 of how amazing he wont be

 

[BlueBaron]

As a Flames fan I come in peace. The Flames need to take a page out of the Flames playbook if they want to become a sucessful team in the next few years. Basically this is what I would like to see Toronto do.

1. Trade both Kessel and Phaneuf. Kessel should get you a first rounder and some picks/prospects. Phaneuf may get a pick/prospects.
The reason to trade both is that Kessel is unhappy in Toronto and in the long term his value could sink and Toronto will not get much for him and now is a good time to trade him while his stock his high. Phaneuf needs to be traded to a team that does not need him to be a Number one dman. Phaneuf does not thrive well as the leader of team and if he does not have to be the leader I think his game may translate better on and off the ice.

2. The goalie situation is strange as both Toronto's goalies are not consistent enough and will need someone who can play more consistently in net. I think that they should target Antti Niemi from the Sharks. He is a free agent at season end and the Sharks from what I have been hearing may not resign him. Then Toronto has to decide which of the their two current goalies stay and who goes.
If Toronto really wants Niemi then they could trade Kessel to the Sharks for a second rounder, a roster player and a prospect. The second rounder becomes a first if the sharks make the playoff.

3. Hire a coach with a proven track record of winning and I like Dan Bylsma, Marc Crawford. I think both could handle the media in Toronto. Bylsma could be a question mark as he had some of the best players when he coached the Pens. Crawford does well when he coaches a big market team.

4. Second give your prospects a chance to play and show what they can do. When the Flames had Sutter he did not like to use the prospects in our farm and we ended up overworking our veterans and trading our farm. Since sutter was let go the Flames have been restocking their farm and using the farm more to make their hockey club better rather than consistently trading for veteran help.

Final thoughts is once Nonis gets the coach he wants which I think should be Dan Blysma then he can work with him to figure out the type of coaching style he will bring to the team and try to find the right players to play his system. With this rebuild it should take two years to get the team to be like the Flames playing a team that is hard to play against.

Disagree with a few points.

1. There has never been any indication Kessel is not happy in Toronto and all indications are he likes it here.

2. Bernier is just fine thank you

4. Strongly disagree, no prospect has ever been ruined by spending time in the AHL. I like Detroit's seasoning policy and that we have started to do the same. Some talents cannot be denied because they are too good (i.e. Morgan Rielly) but otherwise I am dead against rushing our young guys. Just because they are in the minors doesn't mean you have to trade them.

 

[Durrr]

As a Flames fan I come in peace. The Flames need to take a page out of the Flames playbook if they want to become a sucessful team in the next few years. Basically this is what I would like to see Toronto do.

1. Trade both Kessel and Phaneuf. Kessel should get you a first rounder and some picks/prospects. Phaneuf may get a pick/prospects.
The reason to trade both is that Kessel is unhappy in Toronto and in the long term his value could sink and Toronto will not get much for him and now is a good time to trade him while his stock his high. Phaneuf needs to be traded to a team that does not need him to be a Number one dman. Phaneuf does not thrive well as the leader of team and if he does not have to be the leader I think his game may translate better on and off the ice.

2. The goalie situation is strange as both Toronto's goalies are not consistent enough and will need someone who can play more consistently in net. I think that they should target Antti Niemi from the Sharks. He is a free agent at season end and the Sharks from what I have been hearing may not resign him. Then Toronto has to decide which of the their two current goalies stay and who goes.
If Toronto really wants Niemi then they could trade Kessel to the Sharks for a second rounder, a roster player and a prospect. The second rounder becomes a first if the sharks make the playoff.

3. Hire a coach with a proven track record of winning and I like Dan Bylsma, Marc Crawford. I think both could handle the media in Toronto. Bylsma could be a question mark as he had some of the best players when he coached the Pens. Crawford does well when he coaches a big market team.

4. Second give your prospects a chance to play and show what they can do. When the Flames had Sutter he did not like to use the prospects in our farm and we ended up overworking our veterans and trading our farm. Since sutter was let go the Flames have been restocking their farm and using the farm more to make their hockey club better rather than consistently trading for veteran help.

Final thoughts is once Nonis gets the coach he wants which I think should be Dan Blysma then he can work with him to figure out the type of coaching style he will bring to the team and try to find the right players to play his system. With this rebuild it should take two years to get the team to be like the Flames playing a team that is hard to play against.

I agree with most of your post except two points;

1. We do not need Niemi. Even if a solid offer comes around for one of our tenders (and I'm guessing this would be Bernier), then we just fall back onto Reimer for the rebuild. I don't really see the need of signing a free agent when we have two goalies who are capable of playing a good chunk of games. I'm not sure if Niemi would even want to come here anyways, he'l probably get picked up by a team like Dallas.

2.Coaching; I'd much rather this team go the unproven root and get and up and coming coach then a "vet" coach. We saw what happened with Carlyle, in his stubbornness we burned through assets and development of young players because he had to have his "type" of player instead of relying on youth. Look how Rielly and Gardiner look now that he's gone, and lets not forget all of the skill/youth that was sacrificed so Carlyle could get his way. The pressure of a big market should be nothing to these guys, as the reward for winning in Toronto pretty much makes their career.

(Also I don't buy into Kessel being unhappy here, he signed to be on board for a good chunk of the remaining years of his career. What he might be unhappy with is losing, and I don't blame him because management has ultimately surrounded him with a garbage team. Not his fault the previous rebuild was sacrificed for him, and I'm sure the burn out from being this teams sole provider for so long is what we are witnessing this season.)

 

[Durrr]

Disagree with a few points.

1. There has never been any indication Kessel is not happy in Toronto and all indications are he likes it here.

2. Bernier is just fine thank you

4. Strongly disagree, no prospect has ever been ruined by spending time in the AHL. I like Detroit's seasoning policy and that we have started to do the same. Some talents cannot be denied because they are too good (i.e. Morgan Rielly) but otherwise I am dead against rushing our young guys. Just because they are in the minors doesn't mean you have to trade them.

To 4, this is not exactly true. If you run out of real estate with these prospects contract wise, you end up running into a Joe Colborne situation. He wasn't ruined by staying in the AHL, but we burned the asset by doing so because our coach did not even give anything to work with in Toronto. Sames goes for Carter Ashton to a degree, although a lesser degree. The problem isn't keeping them in the minors, it's giving them the right opportunity when they make the jump, something Carlyle was disastrous at.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Recall orr!

 

[Tak7]

To 4, this is not exactly true. If you run out of real estate with these prospects contract wise, you end up running into a Joe Colborne situation. He wasn't ruined by staying in the AHL, but we burned the asset by doing so because our coach did not even give anything to work with in Toronto. Sames goes for Carter Ashton to a degree, although a lesser degree. The problem isn't keeping them in the minors, it's giving them the right opportunity when they make the jump, something Carlyle was disastrous at.

The Leafs didn't burn Colborne because of over-seasoning. He was moved, and went straight into an NHL roster, and remained there.

The Leafs burned Colborne because their fundamental philosophy on how to build a team was ludicrously flawed.

You can be smart with your prospects, and over-season, and still be aware & avoid the risk of waivers if you think ahead & actually plan.

 

[Durrr]

The Leafs didn't burn Colborne because of over-seasoning. He was moved, and went straight into an NHL roster, and remained there.

The Leafs burned Colborne because their fundamental philosophy on how to build a team was ludicrously flawed.

You can be smart with your prospects, and over-season, and still be aware & avoid the risk of waivers if you think ahead & actually plan.

Over seasoning to the point where we didn't know where he fit in on the roster and had to give him away for nothing is still over seasoning. He should have been given a proper look before thrown away, would have prevented us from spending on Holland (which burned a 2nd in a similar situation).

 

[Gary Batman]

With due respect, now we are taking lessons from Flames on how to rebuild a team?

Come back when Flames win a series or two before preaching.

 

[PhiladelphiaKessel]

Mcdavid may have had 6 points but strome had 4 also! I really wonder how much his point totals have to do with not having to be the main threat on Erie

 

[Super Mega]

With due respect, now we are taking lessons from Flames on how to rebuild a team?

Come back when Flames win a series or two before preaching.

he also cut up darryl sutter

 

[BlueBaron]

To 4, this is not exactly true. If you run out of real estate with these prospects contract wise, you end up running into a Joe Colborne situation. He wasn't ruined by staying in the AHL, but we burned the asset by doing so because our coach did not even give anything to work with in Toronto. Sames goes for Carter Ashton to a degree, although a lesser degree. The problem isn't keeping them in the minors, it's giving them the right opportunity when they make the jump, something Carlyle was disastrous at.

And what does that take ? 5 years ? You think it makes more sense to just throw them on the roster ? If a guy isn't good enough to make the team and eventually gets lost because of it that is far better than having some guy who is crap on your team the whole time just because.

Sorry that position makes no sense to me.