Rebuild/Tanking Thread/Tank Nation Squad GDT #11

[ITM]

It's not hard to give a good effort when you only play once a month

Come on, man...Lupul isn't the problem, and he's likely out the door having given an honest effort.

 

[Durrr]

You know, Gary Roberts came back from a serious period of injury...I'm ok believing that Lupul could remain with this club, and I'm ok with him taking the time he needs to heal and be a 100%. I've never gotten the impression that he hasn't tried, and to the contrary, when he's on, the guy's a house on fire...And for a player to eschew the typically media trained quotes, to come out and say, "I was born to be a Maple Leaf" is the kind of spirit I don't mind chirping with a cast on in our room.

Sure, if a trade proposal comes along, we move that beauty for what's best for the team. But if he stays, I think he'll do whatever needs be done to stay a Maple Leaf.

Yeah some people here are being completely ridiculous with their comments. Lupul is right, and I've been saying it all along, this is NOT going to be a scorched earth rebuild. We are not trading young guys like JVR, Kadri, Rielly, and maybe even Gardiner.

Is it a rebuild? Yes, probably, because the older core is going, but we are not shipping the entire team. As for Lupul, if he had value I'd be in favor of shipping him out simply because I can't see his injury problems going away. No problem with his persona or behavior, just what happens when you are an older player,

 

[613Leafer]

I actually expect this team to do better next year with Bozak and one of Kessel or Dion gone. We better make this year count draft wise.

It's not impossible. The games need to be played, and teams over/under achieve all the time. If our goaltending rebounded and the team played a stronger defensive game, we could finish in the ~6-12 spot I'd imagine, even after blowing up half the roster. No guarantee for a high pick.

Look at the 2008-2009 roster

Poni-Antropov-Blake
Hagman-Stajan-Stempniak
Kulemin-Grabovski-Moore
Devereau-Mitchell-Mayers

Kaberle-Kubina
White-Schenn
Stralman-Finger
Frogren

Toskala
Joseph
Gerber

And that included us selling off Antropov/Moore at the deadline, Kaberle being injured for 25 games, etc.

That team finished 7th last in the league. Better then the Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak era in 2010, 2012, and likely 2015, and only 1-2 spots off 2011 and 2014 which finished 9th and 8th last respectively.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Apotheosis]

I actually expect this team to do better next year with Bozak and one of Kessel or Dion gone. We better make this year count draft wise.

Nah.

That lineup is absolutely abysmal. We won't do better at all.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Yeah some people here are being completely ridiculous with their comments. Lupul is right, and I've been saying it all along, this is NOT going to be a scorched earth rebuild. We are not trading young guys like JVR, Kadri, Rielly, and maybe even Gardiner.

Is it a rebuild? Yes, probably, because the older core is going, but we are not shipping the entire team. As for Lupul, if he had value I'd be in favor of shipping him out simply because I can't see his injury problems going away. No problem with his persona or behavior, just what happens when you are an older player,

There's not many here other then those 4 who will be here long term. I'd say 80% roster turn over is scorched earth for a team in this cap world.

By next June will anyone outside of those 4 and maybe Bernier still be here?

I'd argue JVR should be 1st to go. Good contract and still has good value while he's kind of flat lined on his development curve. Definitely worth a 1st and an A level prospect.

 

[613Leafer]

Yeah some people here are being completely ridiculous with their comments. Lupul is right, and I've been saying it all along, this is NOT going to be a scorched earth rebuild. We are not trading young guys like JVR, Kadri, Rielly, and maybe even Gardiner.

Is it a rebuild? Yes, probably, because the older core is going, but we are not shipping the entire team. As for Lupul, if he had value I'd be in favor of shipping him out simply because I can't see his injury problems going away. No problem with his persona or behavior, just what happens when you are an older player,

That's just hyperbole nonsense. Virtually nobody on here, and nobody in the media, suggests that on top of selling off Kessel/Phaneuf, that the Leafs should also sell off JVR/Kadri/Rielly/Gardiner/Bernier/etc.

Most people have 3-4 guys they want to see traded between now and the draft. Lupul's very out of touch with the fanbase/media if he thinks the general idea that people have is to callup half the Marlies and roll with 7-8+ rookies next season.

 

[TheCLAM]

I think JVR can turn it around without Phil/BozK. The team has a terrible energy around it right now, once all the spare parts are traded the healing can truly beging. Based on JVR skillset I find it extremely hard to move a player who has the size of a power-forward and hands of a 5'9 playmaker. He should be a staple player of our top 6, we cant move everyone. By the time the rebuild is over we will be looking at a JVR who is 29 and still very capable player.

It's important to have young core guys but JVR has atleast 8-10 years of good hockey in him

 

[Jack Bauer]

I think JVR can turn it around without Phil/BozK. The team has a terrible energy around it right now, once all the spare parts are traded the healing can truly beging. Based on JVR skillset I find it extremely hard to move a player who has the size of a power-forward and hands of a 5'9 playmaker. He should be a staple player of our top 6, we cant move everyone. By the time the rebuild is over we will be looking at a JVR who is 29 and still very capable player.

It's important to have young core guys but JVR has atleast 8-10 years of good hockey in him

At that age a player of his size and speed almost always starts to decline.

You can cash out now or ride out the contract during his prime years and likely end up moving him when his deal is about to expire as signing him long term at that point would be no different then paying Kessel and Phaneuf now.

You can't count on every good player being elite until they're 35. It's a new era and most players now decline in their early 30's even though that's when the CBA dictates they be paid like superstars.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There's not many here other then those 4 who will be here long term. I'd say 80% roster turn over is scorched earth for a team in this cap world.

By next June will anyone outside of those 4 and maybe Bernier still be here?

I'd argue JVR should be 1st to go. Good contract and still has good value while he's kind of flat lined on his development curve. Definitely worth a 1st and an A level prospect.

I don't know how quickly it's possible to turn over 80% of the roster but if I was running this team I just might try to set a new record.

I agree JVR could go just because I think his value is at a peak. In an ideal world, I keep Bernier, Rielly, Kadri and Gardiner. Everyone else goes and I want back picks, prospects and some veterans who's value is low from a direct contribution standpoint, but who can fill roster spots while some of our prospects develop with the Marlies, and help the kids who do make the roster develop.

I'm willing to wait 5 years to make the playoffs again if that's what it takes. But I want the process to be done methodically, not to be rushed and in 5 years time hopefully be a team that looks to be strong for the next 10 years.

 

[Durrr]

That's just hyperbole nonsense. Virtually nobody on here, and nobody in the media, suggests that on top of selling off Kessel/Phaneuf, that the Leafs should also sell off JVR/Kadri/Rielly/Gardiner/Bernier/etc.

Most people have 3-4 guys they want to see traded between now and the draft. Lupul's very out of touch with the fanbase/media if he thinks the general idea that people have is to callup half the Marlies and roll with 7-8+ rookies next season.

Have you been paying attention? People think we are going to bottom out for 3-5 years by design lol, and that includes everyone from the fans to select media. I agree with you, but I just don't see the team going in that direction, especially if we draft Strome this year. Nylander/Strome/Rielly is a really good foundation in my opinion, and the fact that JVR/Kadri/Gardiner will still be in their primes when these kids start to be in theirs tells me this team is only stepping back for a year or two max.

If this is not the case, we should be shopping JVR along with the older guys this year. Looking at what Buffalo got for Kane, his value right now is huge, and will actually net us quite a bit.

 

[rdawg1234]

Have you been paying attention? People think we are going to bottom out for 3-5 years by design lol, and that includes everyone from the fans to select media. I agree with you, but I just don't see the team going in that direction, especially if we draft Strome this year. Nylander/Strome/Rielly is a really good foundation in my opinion, and the fact that JVR/Kadri/Gardiner will still be in their primes when these kids start to be in theirs tells is a bonus.

It will be interesting for sure. we do already have some solid (secondary) talent that doesnt need to be moved in Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, JVR, Holland, Komarov, Nylander and some up in coming prospects like Brown, Leivo and Percy. of course add in the fact that we have a legitimate starter in bernier too, not some crap goalie like toskala.

we're not bare-bones like we were in 08-09, we just dont have top-end talent and thus will be a bottom team for a bit.

Ideally we will definitely tank the rest of this season and then pick up another top 5 pick next season, hopefully by then Nylander, Rielly, the other prospects and whoever we get back in trades will be on the rise and we will start to be competitive again(not necessarily in the playoffs, but think 2010-11 competitive) and go back to the top.

good lord I want mcdavid though, would easily be the beginning of a cup contending team if we get him.

 

[McGuiresMonsters]

That comment about "who are they going to play next year? draft picks?" is just priceless coming from him. He was a draft pick once given an opportunity to take somebody's job. A job like HIS. If a draft pick shows up and contributes to the teams success over a veteran then BYE BYE veteran, we can't afford you to not produce. we can't afford for you to be injured 1/2 a season for multiple seasons.

Draft picks aren't players. You select players with picks.

 

[Durrr]

It will be interesting for sure. we do already have some solid (secondary) talent that doesnt need to be moved in Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, JVR, Holland, Komarov, Nylander and some up in coming prospects like Brown, Leivo and Percy. of course add in the fact that we have a legitimate starter in bernier too, not some crap goalie like toskala.

we're not bare-bones like we were in 08-09, we just dont have top-end talent and thus will be a bottom team for a bit.

Ideally we will definitely tank the rest of this season and then pick up another top 5 pick next season, hopefully by then Nylander, Rielly, the other prospects and whoever we get back in trades will be on the rise and we will start to be competitive again(not necessarily in the playoffs, but think 2010-11 competitive) and go back to the top.

good lord I want mcdavid though, would easily be the beginning of a cup contending team if we get him.

Not sure if I agree that Rielly, JVR and Nylander and secondary talent (too early to tell for 2 of them though), but I agree. I'd obviously be thrilled if we won the lottery, but even Strome right now is huge for this organization. Probably off base here a little but I think in terms of his value draft wise I'd put him equal or slightly below to Mackinnon, or top 3 in many of the last few years drafts. Seems like a better draft pick then any of the Oilers first overall picks for sure though.

 

[Gary Batman]

TML Tank Tracker[sup]TM[/sup] preview for February 19:

Leafs start the evening at: 5th pick
Best pick by end of evening: 5th pick
Worst pick by end of evening: 5th pick

Leafs waiver priority (true standings based on points %): 5th


Standings Snapshot:

Relevant Results for February 19 that Leafs need to improve draft chances:

Buffalo @ Philadelphia
Columbus @ Pittsburgh
Florida @ Montreal
San Jose @ Dallas

[sup]1[/sup] Means preferable to win in OT, then a SO win, and finally a regulation win; in that order.​

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Columbus is the big game tonight.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Nah.

That lineup is absolutely abysmal. We won't do better at all.

"Won't means 100% certainty, given how we haven't even started next season its incredibly assumptious to say that. It's one to say "I think we are the same next season as this year" which means its your opinion but when you say "we wont do better at all" is stating it as fact when really there isn't any facts yet to support what you are saying.

 

[buttman*]

Sign Bernier to 5 million per -- that will fix everything. He won't let in goals from the other blueline if he's making 5 million per.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Sign Bernier to 5 million per -- that will fix everything. He won't let in goals from the other bullion if he's making 5 million per.

I'd put Bernier in the same category as Howard who is making 5.5M/season, 5M for Bernier is right at market value for a player of his calibre. What I don't think they should do is give him anything more then a 2 year deal, he hasn't shown diddly squat yet which is why I feel he needs a bridge deal.. give him 2 years/5M per and let him truly show what he has or doesn't have, if he flounders or a guy like Bibeau usurps him then great deal him and if he thrives once his contract expires then re-sign him to a 5-6 year deal with the same amount of pay.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I like the 2 point cushion below 6th place

 

[FlareKnight]

Lupul's quotes are a bit comical. Sorry to him, but it's a bit late to say all that now. Not like the odds are good that he'll be around next year (well unless he can't stay healthy long enough to even get traded).

Plus what else does Lupul think they should do? They have spiraled into the abyss regularly for years. This isn't working so now it's time to take it apart and try again. It may not work, but this path certainly isn't working.

"Won't means 100% certainty, given how we haven't even started next season its incredibly assumptious to say that. It's one to say "I think we are the same next season as this year" which means its your opinion but when you say "we wont do better at all" is stating it as fact when really there isn't any facts yet to support what you are saying.

Or you could have just treated that as an opinion and not had to write a lengthy response. It's not like he claimed the Apocalypse will happen next year.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Have you been paying attention? People think we are going to bottom out for 3-5 years by design lol, and that includes everyone from the fans to select media. I agree with you, but I just don't see the team going in that direction, especially if we draft Strome this year. Nylander/Strome/Rielly is a really good foundation in my opinion, and the fact that JVR/Kadri/Gardiner will still be in their primes when these kids start to be in theirs tells me this team is only stepping back for a year or two max.

If this is not the case, we should be shopping JVR along with the older guys this year. Looking at what Buffalo got for Kane, his value right now is huge, and will actually net us quite a bit.

I agree. JVR needs to be moved seeing that we could probably receive a large return. I could easily see a first rounder, top prospect (/w top line potential) and another pick being attainable.

 

[Beleafer4]

Keep:

Kadri
Komarov
Panik
Rielly
Gardiner
Polak
Robidas
Bernier
Clarkson (we cant move him so....)
Holland
Lupul (hes been too injured to get any sort of return)

Those are really the only guys I would definitely keep on the roster. JVR too but I would explore trading him. Hes the type of player I can see teams overpaying for and once we trade kessel Im worried his trade value will plummet.

I agree with lupul though, and I definitely wouldn't play rookies next year. Instead I would stock the team up with 1 year contracts of people with their NHL career on the line, choosing to play here because of the great exposure-->i.e. the "Toronto effect". Basically I would sign as many Jay McClemment, Raymond, Booth, MacArthur, Kontiola, Winnik, Santorelli type players per year and hope 4-5 pan out. I would also consider taking other teams short term cap dumps in exchange for assets.

And that's how I would protect our youth from being exposed to the negative atmosphere too early.

 

[The Legend]

He's 100% correct.

A proper rebuild doesn't entail the complete single season gutting that some people are advocating. They wont find you a single example of this even happening. Tear downs themselves take more than 1 season to do properly

Who's saying that it only takes one season?

 

[thewave]

I'd put Bernier in the same category as Howard who is making 5.5M/season, 5M for Bernier is right at market value for a player of his calibre. What I don't think they should do is give him anything more then a 2 year deal, he hasn't shown diddly squat yet which is why I feel he needs a bridge deal.. give him 2 years/5M per and let him truly show what he has or doesn't have, if he flounders or a guy like Bibeau usurps him then great deal him and if he thrives once his contract expires then re-sign him to a 5-6 year deal with the same amount of pay.

Of course you would because Bernier like Howard has won the cup and many playoff series. The only real difference and it doesn't matter is Bernier wasn't on the ice playing the series.

Trivial but worth mentioning I suppose.