Rankings of best on best rosters, right now

[ORRFForever]

Russian national teams, unlike Soviet national teams, can’t play together. The team in 2010 is still one of the best forward groups I’ve ever seen yet their fourth line produced the most; the players all want to play their own style and there don’t seem to be enough pucks on the ice when the big guns are out. They all wanted to be the triggerman on the power play and they all wanted to fly the zone on the breakout.

They are also hindered by poor coaching (not knowing how to line match comes to mind) and the fact they play and change as 5 man units, while in thought is good idea, has led to goals against (thinking of Crosby at the World Cup in 2016).

Fair enough.

Still, I could see the Russian team doing better than people expect.

 

[ClarkBolzano]

Would they ever consider converting some of those wingers to center? If I'm not mistaken, didn't Kravtsov, Buchnevich and Svechnikov all play center at the U20?

I dont know about the others but Svech never played center at u 20 Level. He always played RW Till He entered the Nhl

 

[ClarkBolzano]

But in my opinion like Kutznetsov who also was orginally a wing Svech has the tools to play center. He has enough hockey sense and and a Solid defensive game.

 

[Lartsaman]

01. Canada
02. Sweden
03. Russia
04. Usa
05. Czech Republic
06. Switzerland
07. Germany
08. Slovakia
09. Denmark
10. Finland
11. Latvia
12. Belarus
13. Norway
14. Kazakhstan

 

[Czechboy]

01. Canada
02. Sweden
03. Russia
04. Usa
05. Czech Republic
06. Switzerland
07. Germany
08. Slovakia
09. Denmark
10. Finland
11. Latvia
12. Belarus
13. Norway
14. Kazakhstan

lol.. everytime I see the Czechs not in their 6th spot, I know a fan is mad at their (or someone elses) national team.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yeah Finland #10 is just a gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

 

[MaxV]

But in my opinion like Kutznetsov who also was orginally a wing Svech has the tools to play center. He has enough hockey sense and and a Solid defensive game.

There is absolutely no reason to do this.

Russia's situation at center isn't great but it's far from desperate. It's far from the point of having to make these drastic experiments.

You don't need 3 star players to make a highly effective line. There are non-star players who make great "passengers" on a line with star players. They back- and fore-check; create traffic in front of the net; and get in position to finish chances.

Look at Telegin at the World Cup, his inclusion was highly criticized but he ended up tied for team lead in points and, in general, had a great tournament.

 

[kudla]

The best possible rosters:

1. Canada

2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden

5. Finland
6. Czech

7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia/Latvia
10. Denmark

 

[IceHockeyDude]

The best possible rosters:

1. Canada

2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden

5. Finland
6. Czech

7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia/Latvia
10. Denmark

LOL Russia is not ahead of USA and Sweden. Argument could be made for Finland being above as well.

 

[Garl]

The best possible rosters:

1. Canada

2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden

5. Finland
6. Czech

7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia/Latvia
10. Denmark

Hmm, how is Russia ahead of Sweden and US? Russia is really thin on both defense and center positions

 

[kudla]

Hmm, how is Russia ahead of Sweden and US? Russia is really thin on both defense and center positions

LOL Russia is not ahead of USA and Sweden. Argument could be made for Finland being above as well.

Have to agree here with you boys, had a closer look and Russia really doesn't seem to be better than those two nowadays. But still, I'd give USA and Sweden only a slight edge if they played Russia

 

[SOLR]

Not sure why this is so complex:

Tier 1 (should win it all if they play at their level)
Canada
US

Tier 2 (no surprise if they win it all, however unlikely, probable finalists)
Russia
Sweden
Finland

Tier 3 (no surprise if they cause a surprise or reach the semi-finals, extremely unlikely that they win it all).
Czech
Germany
Swiss

Tier 4 (Could cause surprises in group play)
Slovakia
Latvia
Denmark

Tier 5 (Unlikely to cause any surprise)
Kazaks
Norway
France
Belarus
Austrian
Italians

 

[Elvs]

Not sure why this is so complex:

Tier 1 (should win it all if they play at their level)
Canada
US

Tier 2 (no surprise if they win it all, however unlikely, probable finalists)
Russia
Sweden
Finland

Tier 3 (no surprise if they cause a surprise or reach the semi-finals, extremely unlikely that they win it all).
Czech
Slovakia
Germany
Swiss

Tier 4 (unlikely to pass their group stage)
Latvia
Kazaks
Norway
France
Denmark
Belarus
Austrian
Italians

Canada is in their own tier. The Czech's are also in their own tier, clearly better than Switzerland and certainly better than Germany and Slovakia.

Pastrnak, Necas, Vrana, Krejci, Voracek, Hertl, Palat, Kubalik... The Czech's are much stronger than they get credit for. Sure, their defense is weak on paper, but in a short tournament team defense is what matters.

Latvia and Denmark don't belong to the bottom tier with all those others. They are defenitely in the mix to finish top 8 in a best on best tournament. Behind them though, there's not much hope for anyone else advancing.

 

[SOLR]

Canada is in their own tier. The Czech's are also in their own tier, clearly better than Switzerland and certainly better than Germany and Slovakia.

Pastrnak, Necas, Vrana, Krejci, Voracek, Hertl, Palat, Kubalik... The Czech's are much stronger than they get credit for. Sure, their defense is weak on paper, but in a short tournament team defense is what matters.

Latvia and Denmark don't belong to the bottom tier with all those others. They are defenitely in the mix to finish top 8 in a best on best tournament. Behind them though, there's not much hope for anyone else advancing.

WJC medal rates are starting to show that it's Canada-US in tier 1. Would agree Canada still has a small edge, but we really didn't have a best-on-best in a while at this level so I'm playing it safe. Canada is producing at replacement rate, US is producing over replacement rate.

Czechs have been in tier 2 for a long time, however, they are clearly trending towards tier 3 while Germany is improving rapidly.

While the Czech seems to be showing some better talent coming (at least at a replacement rate to stabilize them in tier 3), if one nation reaches tier 2 at some point in the next 10 years it's Germany (way over replacement).

I could have formed a tier for Slovaks, Latvia and Denmark I guess.

What Germany does, Austrians often do, I expect Austrian to start a climb towards that Slovak-Latvia-Denmark tier.

 

[Elvs]

WJC medal rates are starting to show that it's Canada-US in tier 1. Would agree Canada still has a small edge, but we really didn't have a best-on-best in a while at this level so I'm playing it safe. Canada is producing at replacement rate, US is producing over replacement rate.

Czechs have been in tier 2 for a long time, however, they are clearly trending towards tier 3 while Germany is improving rapidly.

While the Czech seems to be showing some better talent coming (at least at a replacement rate to stabilize them in tier 3), if one nation reaches tier 2 at some point in the next 10 years it's Germany (way over replacement).

I could have formed a tier for Slovaks, Latvia and Denmark I guess.

What Germany does, Austrians often do, I expect Austrian to start a climb towards that Slovak-Latvia-Denmark tier.

Nations goes through peaks and slumps in terms of prospect development. It's still too early to say what Germany's future will be. I'm sure Stützle and Seider will be impact players, and Draisaitl still has many good years in front of him, but to reach the Czech's level they need ten years of consistant quantity in the drafts.

Draisaitl was drafted in 2014. Since then, Germany has had a total of ten players drafted (five in the 1st round, one in the 2nd round. In the same time span, the Czech's have had a total of 59 players drafted (eight in the 1st round, seven in the 2nd round). Sure, on average, Germany has produced more quality prospects lately, but if the Czech's continue to have 6x higher quantity, they are also gonna hit more home runs over time.

I hope Germany continue's to do well. The market potential there is huge, and would increase the interest for hockey all over Europe. But they still have long ways to go before joining the "big 6".

The Czech's looked like they were in deep trouble until Pastrnak emerged, and now Necas has had a breakout season and Vrana and Hronek are looking good in Detroit. They have several other depth players in the NHL who are still young, such as Chytil and Zacha, and they can most likely look forward to two defensemen being drafted in the 1st round in both 2021 (Svozil) and 2022 (Jiricik). Also, while drafted late in the third round, Lukas Dostal is currently one of the world's most intriguing young goaltenders.

Slovakia on the other hand have miles to go. Cernak has solidify himself as a top 4 defenseman and Fehervary is on good track as well. Ruzicka and Pospisil are making nice progress in the minors and Studenic made his NHL debute this season. They have to players (Nemec and Slafkovsky) projected to be drafted in the 1st round next year (possibly in the top 10 even), and then another one or two first round picks in 2023 (Dvorsky and Ciernik). But it's still too early to tell if this is a result of their improved program, or if it's just a coincidence.

 

[Czechboy]

Not sure why this is so complex:

I totally agree with Tiers.. we are talking best on best here (the thread) and I have no idea why the US would be on the same level as Canada? Canada has won the last 3 best on bests... US have a lot of 7th places finishes lately.

I think later it looks like you are using Jr. Results to show the States are equal to Canada. Again, this is a best on best Senior thread. I think it's better to look at senior results and senior rosters.

I totally agree the States develop NHL players at a ridiculous level (although I'd still say a tier below Canada). I wouldn't be surprised if they won a best on best tourney with their tremendous depth. However, they haven't.

Their latest results:

Last Olympics (no NHL): 7th (Canada was 3rd)
Last Worlds: 7th (Canada was 2nd)
Last World Cup (best on best): 7th (Canada was gold)
Last best on best Olympics (2014): 4th (Canada was gold)

Last Gold at any senior level: 1996 World Cup (best on best). Last Gold at Olympics was 1980.

 

[Czechboy]

Czechs have been in tier 2 for a long time, however, they are clearly trending towards tier 3 while Germany is improving rapidly.

Why are Czech clearly trending towards tier 3?

I agree the German's are on the rise and produced some really good players and their DEL is improving. I'm a big fan of the program and could see the Olympic team being a real challenge for everyone. I could even see young Czechs leaving for the DEL. However, this is what they have in the NHL

One very good NHL goalie. The other is retired from the National team.

Not one NHL D.

Seider is coming, so is Peterka and Reichel. All are around 20 years old. Stutzl is a stud! Drai is Top 5 in the world.

Again, I feel like your assessment of international hockey is from watching the U20's every Xmas? Am I close?

 

[Czechboy]

The best possible rosters:

1. Canada

2. Russia
3. USA
4. Sweden

5. Finland
6. Czech

7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia/Latvia
10. Denmark

Finland is better than us. I'm a big fan of what they got going... They have higher end forwards, better young prospects, better NHL goalies, better NHL D.

I would put them with Russia/USA/Sweden... those 4 nations are very close.

 

[SOLR]

Why are Czech clearly trending towards tier 3?

I agree the German's are on the rise and produced some really good players and their DEL is improving. I'm a big fan of the program and could see the Olympic team being a real challenge for everyone. I could even see young Czechs leaving for the DEL. However, this is what they have in the NHL

View attachment 434203

One very good NHL goalie. The other is retired from the National team.

Not one NHL D.

Seider is coming, so is Peterka and Reichel. All are around 20 years old. Stutzl is a stud! Drai is Top 5 in the world.

Again, I feel like your assessment of international hockey is from watching the U20's every Xmas? Am I close?

Not sure how one can disagree Czechs are no longer in tier 2. The data is overwhelmingly clear.

More like 28 years of watching all games available, DEL, SHL, KHL?

 

[Czechboy]

Nations goes through peaks and slumps in terms of prospect development. It's still too early to say what Germany's future will be. I'm sure Stützle and Seider will be impact players, and Draisaitl still has many good years in front of him, but to reach the Czech's level they need ten years of consistant quantity in the drafts.

Draisaitl was drafted in 2014. Since then, Germany has had a total of ten players drafted (five in the 1st round, one in the 2nd round. In the same time span, the Czech's have had a total of 59 players drafted (eight in the 1st round, seven in the 2nd round). Sure, on average, Germany has produced more quality prospects lately, but if the Czech's continue to have 6x higher quantity, they are also gonna hit more home runs over time.

I hope Germany continue's to do well. The market potential there is huge, and would increase the interest for hockey all over Europe. But they still have long ways to go before joining the "big 6".

The Czech's looked like they were in deep trouble until Pastrnak emerged, and now Necas has had a breakout season and Vrana and Hronek are looking good in Detroit. They have several other depth players in the NHL who are still young, such as Chytil and Zacha, and they can most likely look forward to two defensemen being drafted in the 1st round in both 2021 (Svozil) and 2022 (Jiricik). Also, while drafted late in the third round, Lukas Dostal is currently one of the world's most intriguing young goaltenders.

Slovakia on the other hand have miles to go. Cernak has solidify himself as a top 4 defenseman and Fehervary is on good track as well. Ruzicka and Pospisil are making nice progress in the minors and Studenic made his NHL debute this season. They have to players (Nemec and Slafkovsky) projected to be drafted in the 1st round next year (possibly in the top 10 even), and then another one or two first round picks in 2023 (Dvorsky and Ciernik). But it's still too early to tell if this is a result of their improved program, or if it's just a coincidence.

Well put!

I'd add Vladar, Vanecek and Korenar to the list of future NHL goalies. While no clearn 1.. next NHL season could see 6 Czech goalies as NHL regulars. Let's hope one takes off! Vanecek in Washington, Vladar in Seattle (?), Dostal as backup in Anaheim? Rittich somewhere as a backup. Francouz back in Colorado. Mrazek probably in Carolina. Korenar in SJ. And we'll still have guys like Vejmelka, Patera, Dobes, Vomacka and Skarek all bubbling at the AHL level.

Kaut is another prospect that should be in the NHL next season. Jenik? Lauko?

Kubalik has been a fantastic surprise as well!

We will be losing some good players but I think they get replaced at NHL level quickly. Frk, Simon, D Kase (maybe O Kase to LTIR) and Frolik are probably done in the NHL.

 

[Czechboy]

The data is overwhelmingly clear.

What data?

Also, maybe we disagree on the tier system. Are you using the one where the US are clearly equal to Canada?

 

[czechmate]

WJC medal rates are starting to show that it's Canada-US in tier 1. Would agree Canada still has a small edge, but we really didn't have a best-on-best in a while at this level so I'm playing it safe. Canada is producing at replacement rate, US is producing over replacement rate.

Czechs have been in tier 2 for a long time, however, they are clearly trending towards tier 3 while Germany is improving rapidly.

While the Czech seems to be showing some better talent coming (at least at a replacement rate to stabilize them in tier 3), if one nation reaches tier 2 at some point in the next 10 years it's Germany (way over replacement).

I could have formed a tier for Slovaks, Latvia and Denmark I guess.

What Germany does, Austrians often do, I expect Austrian to start a climb towards that Slovak-Latvia-Denmark tier.

I wish Germany best of luck in their hockey development and it would be a treat for the hockey world to see emerging competition, but let's stay realistic. Draisaitl and 4 additional prospects don't make you a hockey power. It's not that easy and it takes a lot of time.

 

[SOLR]

I totally agree with Tiers.. we are talking best on best here (the thread) and I have no idea why the US would be on the same level as Canada? Canada has won the last 3 best on bests... US have a lot of 7th places finishes lately.

I think later it looks like you are using Jr. Results to show the States are equal to Canada. Again, this is a best on best Senior thread. I think it's better to look at senior results and senior rosters.

I totally agree the States develop NHL players at a ridiculous level (although I'd still say a tier below Canada). I wouldn't be surprised if they won a best on best tourney with their tremendous depth. However, they haven't.

Their latest results:

Last Olympics (no NHL): 7th (Canada was 3rd)
Last Worlds: 7th (Canada was 2nd)
Last World Cup (best on best): 7th (Canada was gold)
Last best on best Olympics (2014): 4th (Canada was gold)

Last Gold at any senior level: 1996 World Cup (best on best). Last Gold at Olympics was 1980.

The yearly worlds are not a good evaluation, it's just about availability.
At the Olympics, finishing 7th just means you had your bad game in the quarter-finals. It's been 8 yrs since Vancouver. Canada in Turino? 7th - you can't selectively pick the data.
The world cup was before the NHL season, again, not really a tournament where you can count on the player going at it. The last best on best was Vancouver. I don't think looking at the last 40 years makes sense to evaluate anything because of the gap in time.

My references to the WJC are simply an attempt (imperfect) to describe what happened at the production of talent level since Vancouver, and the WJC is quite predictive of what happens at the senior level later - US is certainly around the same tier as Canada there over the past 8 years.

I would still have Canada as the favourite, however, I'm not sure they would be 1 standard of deviation better than the US if you played 3-4 tournaments (ie. maybe Canada is half a tier better, the same way Czech is half a tier better than the Swiss)

 

[SOLR]

I wish Germany best of luck in their hockey development and it would be a treat for the hockey world to see emerging competition, but let's stay realistic. Draisaitl and 4 additional prospects don't make you a hockey power. It's not that easy and it takes a lot of time.

Problem for that argument, if you look at the 15 years old of right now, many great prospects again. Draisaitl will have a long-lasting impact in a larger population.

What data?

Also, maybe we disagree on the tier system. Are you using the one where the US are clearly equal to Canada?

Statistically, tiers usually mean "standard of deviation" of performance. In this case, Canada and US can be in the same tier even if Canada is superior. It just means that the standard deviation between the 2, would be under 1.

The WJC data from 2008 to 2018 is probably the most predictive data we have to look at. However, its far from perfect, as teams like the Czech often have 2-3 great players playing with an overall weak team in juniors, but then when you look at the senior level these great players aggregate together to elevate the senior level.

 

[Czechboy]

you can't selectively pick the data.

I didn't.

I quoted the latest results at every type of senior tournament

A worlds, a world cup, an olympics without NHL players, an Olympics with NHL players...