Rankings of best on best rosters, right now

[Namejs]

no offence, but when was the last time czech made semifinals in wjc? 1999? so its not years from years for them, they have been bad at wjc for a long time.

I don't think you quite got the point. As long as the Czechs pump out a voracek, a pastrnak, a kubalik, a hertl, a necas or a krejci every few years, their A roster is going to be filled with very talented NHL players.

Being mediocre at the WJC is only indicative of DEPTH.

You don't need a 100 NHL players to contend for medals in a best-on-best situation.

As for Germany, they have to continue pumping out elite talent for the next 10 years to accrue a sizeable pool of good NHL players. They only have Draisaitl, Stutzle and a goalie right now. It does look like Germany is improving, but overtaking the Czechs will take a long time.

 

[SOLR]

It's completely ridiculous to use the WJC as a measuring stick.

Countries with an extremely high number of players are always going to be the favorites there. They can always muster up a great team by picking players only born in a limited age cohort.

Smaller countries, be it Finland or the Czech Republic, will have bad years from time to time, but that does not in any way impede the quality of their best-on-best roster at the senior level.

The smaller the age cohort, the more variance there is going to be for smaller countries. But their job is not about winning gold at the WJC, it's not even that important for them. They only need to consistently produce a few elite prospects every year or two.

Their 3rd or 4th lines at the WJC might be significantly worse than Canada's, but that really doesn't matter.

WJC is almost meaningless as an indicator here.

So the team's depth never correlates with producing more elite prospects? I'm not sure if you thought about this argument at all.

Do you think Stutzle was produced independently from Reichel, Peterka (or Drai)? Why does Canada produce a McDavid-like player more often (every 8-10 years)?

I guess you've never been in an elite environment.

I'm not denying the variance for small countries, I'm saying the exact opposite: the variance is revealing of the development outcomes at the country level (not perfectly, but at the macro level it works). Less variance, consistent rankings, means that the pipeline of new good players is solid. More variance, means that less depth exist, thus lesser competition and that long term generally means that your top-end falls off. Jagr was produced in the 80s when the Czechs were nearly tier 1 with Canada and Russia (and well unified with Slovakia that makes sense, even more depth produced)

The Czechs have not medaled at the WJC since 2005. They are no longer in tier 2 at the WJC. Their average ranking is 6th, their top ranking was 4th, once in the past 10 years. Their upward standard of deviation (what captures the "strong years") indicates a macro decline of the Czech system, acknowledged by everyone in the Czech hockey establishments. Czechs HFboard posters are not on the same page?

After winning the WJC twice in 2000 and 2001, the Czech medal bronze in Turino in 2006. Since, their Olympics ranking in best on best is 6.5 (about equal to their WJC ranking).

 

[SOLR]

I don't think you quite got the point. As long as the Czechs pump out a voracek, a pastrnak, a kubalik, a hertl, a necas or a krejci every few years, their A roster is going to be filled with very talented NHL players.

Being mediocre at the WJC is only indicative of DEPTH.

You don't need a 100 NHL players to contend for medals in a best-on-best situation.

As for Germany, they have to continue pumping out elite talent for the next 10 years to accrue a sizeable pool of good NHL players. They only have Draisaitl, Stutzle and a goalie right now. It does look like Germany is improving, but overtaking the Czechs will take a long time.

Yep, you do. 100% do. It's with that depth that you produce McDavid-like player. Or you can't and you don't. They play others sports. Just like the US is catching up to Canada, the Germans have the same advantages in the European sphere and its only starting to show. Now, it will take some time, but the delta is much smaller than it was between the Czech and Germans, particularly if all the Czech stars retire, and raise their families in Germany, producing an accelerated transfer of hockey knowledge.

 

[Big Phil]

Canada
USA
................
It gets a little muddy after this. Maybe Sweden is still 3rd, probably?

 

[Goodman68]

Yep, you do. 100% do. It's with that depth that you produce McDavid-like player. Or you can't and you don't. They play others sports. Just like the US is catching up to Canada, the Germans have the same advantages in the European sphere and its only starting to show. Now, it will take some time, but the delta is much smaller than it was between the Czech and Germans, particularly if all the Czech stars retire, and raise their families in Germany, producing an accelerated transfer of hockey knowledge.

But the Czech stars will not end soon and will not go to Germany at all.
Otherwise, it's not worth commenting much. Most fans here are aware of trends and division into levels.

 

[Czechboy]

It's with that depth that you produce McDavid-like player.

Now explain Kopitar, Drai, Pastrnak, Ehlers, Josi and Zuccarello?

 

[Czechboy]

no offence, but when was the last time czech made semifinals in wjc? 1999? so its not years from years for them, they have been bad at wjc for a long time.

2 things

1. No Czech on this board is arguing the Czechs are better than 6th in the world.
2. Yes, we suck at the WJC and will suck for more time to come. Watching us get blitzed 8-0 by a big 5 nation is like a Xmas tradition at this point.

I started arguing when someone had the US a tier above the rest of the world in senior competition based on WJHC results. Not defiending Czech hockey... not saying we are better than anyone in the big 5.

To further the point that was made though... we suck at the world juniors and still have a very good best on best team coming to the 2022 Olympics. We can send an all NHL team and have a Rocket Richard winner. Germany has been to one quarterfinal in how many years? They are also able to send a very good best on best team. Have the Swiss won a lot at the World Juniors? Because their best on best team is also looking very good. Sweden has one gold medal in this century? How's their team looking? They've actually won as many gold medals as the Czechs have at 2 a piece.... clearly a better program (thanks for Vrana and Pastrnak).

I hate to give this counter but in the last decade the Slovaks have more medals at the world juniors than the Czechs do.. now look at our 2 best on best rosters... I love my Slovak's but I'd rather have the Czech one which can be an all NHL roster.

 

[SOLR]

Now explain Kopitar, Drai, Pastrnak, Ehlers, Josi and Zuccarello?

Canada produces 1-2 per year at that level, and you need those to produce the McDavids.

 

[SOLR]

But the Czech stars will not end soon and will not go to Germany at all.
Otherwise, it's not worth commenting much. Most fans here are aware of trends and division into levels.

They won't go to Germany? haha, yeah ok.

 

[Goodman68]

They won't go to Germany? haha, yeah ok.

Ha ha ?? Do you have any special information that they are going to move there? How many former Czech stars live permanently in Germany (assuming they are all, ha ha)? You're from another galaxy, I suppose

 

[SOLR]

Ha ha ?? Do you have any special information that they are going to move there? How many former Czech stars live permanently in Germany (assuming they are all, ha ha)? You're from another galaxy, I suppose

No, I just find your negation of a clear problem that we Canadian know a lot about quite interesting and delusional.

Drai, Reichel, Peterka, all with Czech links.

So you think this will stop when German salaries are 2-3x Czech salaries?

Ok, if you say so?

 

[lamini]

The Czechs have not medaled at the WJC since 2005. They are no longer in tier 2 at the WJC. Their average ranking is 6th, their top ranking was 4th, once in the past 10 years. Their upward standard of deviation (what captures the "strong years") indicates a macro decline of the Czech system, acknowledged by everyone in the Czech hockey establishments. Czechs HFboard posters are not on the same page?

After winning the WJC twice in 2000 and 2001, the Czech medal bronze in Turino in 2006. Since, their Olympics ranking in best on best is 6.5 (about equal to their WJC ranking).

I don't think someone claims that they are in Tier 2, but they are are not the same tier as Germany and Germany is not close to taking that 6th spot from them.

You talk about depth. Czechs produce 1-3 NHLer every draft, Germany has many drafts with 0. Same as Switzerland and other countries that I consider tier below Czech, they can have draft with multiple NHLers, but those drafts without any is what separates them from Czechs.

 

[SOLR]

I don't think someone claims that they are in Tier 2, but they are are not the same tier as Germany and Germany is not close to taking that 6th spot from them.

You talk about depth. Czechs produce 1-3 NHLer every draft, Germany has many drafts with 0. Same as Switzerland and other countries that I consider tier below Czech, they can have draft with multiple NHLers, but those drafts without any is what separates them from Czechs.

I never claimed this, all I said is they are within the same standard of deviation in terms of talent production right now. It doesn't mean that Czechs are not ahead by a fair margin, just less than 1 standard of deviation.

 

[Czechboy]

No, I just find your negation of a clear problem that we Canadian know a lot about quite interesting and delusional.

Drai, Reichel, Peterka, all with Czech links.

So you think this will stop when German salaries are 2-3x Czech salaries?

Ok, if you say so?

Pivonka and Hejduk now play for the States. Svoboda and Stastny played for Canada in Canada Cups. Nedved played for Canada at the Olympics. Stastny's kids play for the US.

Serious question.. how much do Czechs make in salary? How much do Germans? I know the Germans make 2 or 3 more than us (according to you) so what do we make and what do they make? Are you saying DEL players triple Extraliga players in salary? What are the salaries? Do Czechs make 100K a year while Germans make 300k?

I had to look to see who these higher paid players are.. here is the top 10 in DEL scoring... who you got making more than an AHL salary?

 

[Namejs]

I never claimed this, all I said is they are within the same standard of deviation in terms of talent production right now. It doesn't mean that Czechs are not ahead by a fair margin, just less than 1 standard of deviation.

 

[lamini]

I never claimed this, all I said is they are within the same standard of deviation in terms of talent production right now. It doesn't mean that Czechs are not ahead by a fair margin, just less than 1 standard of deviation.

That's where I don't agree:

Top 5 talent production means their best on best team is full of NHL stars, Czech talent productions means their best on best team is full of NHLers with some stars, German/Swiss talent production means their best on best team is mostly AHL-level players with some NHL stars and NHLers in it. For me that are clearly different tiers.

 

[Goodman68]

[QUOTE = "SOLR, příspěvek: 178002668, člen: 37714"] Ne, jen shledávám vaši negaci jasného problému, o kterém my Kanaďané víme hodně, celkem zajímavých a klamných.

Drai, Reichel, Peterka, všichni s českými odkazy.

Takže si myslíte, že se to zastaví, když německé platy budou 2–3krát vyšší než české platy?

Dobře, pokud to říkáte? [/ QUOTE]

To jsou tři, to je opravdu hodně, lol ..
O Peterce nic nevím, narodil se v Německu a někteří jeho předkové pravděpodobně během komunistů emigrovali.
Reichelův otec odešel do Německa jako junior a už tam zůstal. Robert, slavnější bratr a pravá česká legenda žije a pracuje pro český hokej..
Otec Drai emigroval jako dítě už dávno za komunismu. Ha ha.
Úplně jste rozbili argumenty: DD

 

[Lambo]

Yep, you do. 100% do. It's with that depth that you produce McDavid-like player. Or you can't and you don't. They play others sports. Just like the US is catching up to Canada, the Germans have the same advantages in the European sphere and its only starting to show. Now, it will take some time, but the delta is much smaller than it was between the Czech and Germans, particularly if all the Czech stars retire, and raise their families in Germany, producing an accelerated transfer of hockey knowledge.

Sorry Germany will never catch up with the Czech Republic. Just because a top nation has gotten weaker doesn't mean that smaller ones will overtake them. Germany is not an ice hockey country and other sports are much more important. To catch up with the Czech Republic, a lot more enthusiasm for hockey would have to develop and a much better infrastructure would have to be built. None of this will happen because there is also a lack of enthusiasm. The DEB (German Hockey Federation) has launched a youth program. But how long will it be successful? How well-known is Leon Draisaitel in Germany? He could move freely in any city. Hardly anyone would recognize him. One or the other third division footballer is better known. At most, Germany can catch up with Switzerland at some point. More is not possible! By the way, most of the Czech ex-stars do not live in Germany. Why also? How did you get this idea?

 

[Bure80]

No, I just find your negation of a clear problem that we Canadian know a lot about quite interesting and delusional.

Drai, Reichel, Peterka, all with Czech links.

So you think this will stop when German salaries are 2-3x Czech salaries?

Ok, if you say so?

With the history both nations had, its normal people go viceversa. I life close to the Czech border. I have a friend who is Sudeten German. He has a Czech and a German passport. He speaks fluent Czech and German. He can choose where he wants to life and work. Thats the case for many in the border area. Anyway that will not give German hockey a big advantage over Czech hockey. Now and then a player will choose Germany. But never in the mass to change anything.

Sorry Germany will never catch up with the Czech Republic.

Thats a word i wouldnt use in this case.

 

[ORRFForever]

Sorry Germany will never catch up with the Czech Republic.

Not sure about that.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I had to look to see who these higher paid players are.. here is the top 10 in DEL scoring... who you got making more than an AHL salary?

Well the top-10 of scorers is largely irrelevant since just like in most European leagues best-paid players all play for the same teams. In the KHL, for example, SKA and CSKA combined had 1 player (Okulov) in the top-30 of the league scoring despite being by far the richest teams.

Undoubtedly leading players in Munchen, Berlin or Mannheim make way more than in the AHL. But, at the same time, the amount of Czechs playing in the DEL (almost none) is the greatest indication that Czech teams can match DEL salaries for the most part. Whatever the salary difference is for an average player likely hardly covers bigger expenses caused by living in Germany.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Five years ago I could see an argument being made that the Czech Rep was trending towards hockey's "third or fourth tier" or whatever, but now? Not too long ago the core of a full strength Czech team would have been old... really old, and there didn't seem to be a whole lot of talent coming up to replace it, but currently, at least at forward, things look pretty solid, and the only guy who could be considered ancient is Krecji.

To be honest, if 2 or 3 defencemen come along who are more than just bottom pairing guys the Czechs will be right back in the thick of things as a full blown contender.

I think this is all hypothetical anyway, because I don't think the NHL will be in China for the Olympics next year, so who knows when the next "best-vs-best" tournament will be.

 

[Hasa92]

Top 10:

Elite:
1. Canada
2. Russia
3. USA

Very, very good:
4. Sweden
5. Finland

Good:
6. Czech Rebublic

Okay:
7. Switzerland
8. Slovakia
9. Germany.

Decent:
10. Denmark

This is only for the absolute best roster, if we add other factors such as depth (Backup players or even multiple teams from the same country) then Canada is on it's own tier and USA might overtake Russia or coaching & playing culture (Under/ over achieving for example) then Finland will join the Elite teams.

I think this is all hypothetical anyway, because I don't think the NHL will be in China for the Olympics next year, so who knows when the next "best-vs-best" tournament will be.

I'm pretty sure that NHL has already agreed to join the 2022 & 2026 Olympics.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yep, you do. 100% do.

This is 100% not backed by a great number of players and countries in a great number of sports. Basically, you are trying to deny Draisaitl, or Nowitzki, or Doncic, or Yao Ming, or George Weah, or whoever else exists.

 

[Lambo]

Not sure about that.

I gave reasons for it. There is a lack of enthusiasm for this sport in the long term. Football dominates everything in Germany.