Rank the Conn Smythe winners since 2005

TheDevilMadeMe

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I could definitely see that too. Thomas is not high on the list is the point. Detriment for a lot of playoffs. Heroic offensive support to overcome him.

Thomas's offensive support seems pretty middle of the road for a Stanley Cup champion to me.

Playoff goals per game by Stanley Cup winners:

2006 Canes: 2.92
2007 Ducks: 2.76
2008 Red Wings: 3.27
2009 Penguins: 3.29
2010 Blackhawks: 3.55
2011 Bruins: 3.24
2012: Kings: 2.85
2013 Blackhawks: 2.78
2014 Kings: 3.38
2015 Blackhawks: 3.00
2016 Penguins: 3.04
2017 Penguins 3.08
2018 Capitals: 3.58

In fact, Holtby, who I believe you touted as 2nd most worthy in 2018, had quite a bit more offensive support.
 

Kyle McMahon

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No more so than Nicklas Lidstrom, who saw Chelios draw the short straw in facing the two toughest lines they faced that playoff run. But the Ducks and Red Wings didn’t have a high-end run by a scorer or a high-end run by a goalie (Giguere split time with Bryzgalov).

I don’t think the media has had to go to far out of their way to find a reason not to give it to a defenseman, because usually Stanley Cup Champions have exactly that: high-end scorers or goaltenders or both. If Toews scorers ~30 points, that’s not any reason; it’s a very, very good reason.

I mean, they could have given it to Keith in 2013, and that run would be buried at the bottom of everyone’s list with Niedermayer and Crosby, because just like in 2002, 2007, and 2016, the Stanley Cup Champions won in a short series while probably not having the best player in the playoffs.

...though maybe in 2007, they did. If anything, the narrative of the unrewarded post-lockout playoff defenseman comes down to the same name - and it ain’t Keith.

Kane/Williams over Keith/Doughty in 2013/2014 was pretty damning of the voters IMO. Kris Letang had a reasonable case in 2016. That's three years out of four where a forward won a rather weak-ish Smythe. I don't think anyone would have complained if the defensemen had won in those instances though. (That's not actually true, tons of people will complain about every award no matter who wins it). So after the two previous seasons, there was definitely a sense of "Keith should obviously win, but the voters will probably get it wrong".
 
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Ducks in a row

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niedermayer in 07 was such a bad choice

obviously the ducks wouldn't have come close to winning it all without him but it should have gone to pahlsson. even getzlaf, giguere, and pronger were deserving but there was no way they'd give it to pronger after he was suspended multiple times in the playoffs

niedermayer was the safe choice

Scott Niedermayer won it in 2007 because of his hugely important goals and playing so many mins and Pronger being suspended and Giguere who didn't play in 3 Ducks games which the Ducks won all of them and having no high scorers on the team. It shouldn't be a surprise he won the Conn Smythe. If I had a vote I would of voted for him.
 
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quoipourquoi

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Kane/Williams over Keith/Doughty in 2013/2014 was pretty damning of the voters IMO. Kris Letang had a reasonable case in 2016. That's three years out of four where a forward won a rather weak-ish Smythe. I don't think anyone would have complained if the defensemen had won in those instances though. (That's not actually true, tons of people will complain about every award no matter who wins it). So after the two previous seasons, there was definitely a sense of "Keith should obviously win, but the voters will probably get it wrong".

I heard much more about Rask and Krejci in a loss or Crawford in a win in 2013 than Duncan Keith, so I don’t know why anyone would necessarily expect Keith to win the way they might have in 2010 or 2015 or think it’s damning that he didn’t. Kane was a weak pick. Anyone on Chicago was a weak pick.

But Justin Williams? None of the top-3 candidates were on the weak-ish side. Everyone can tell you that Doughty and Kopitar (because no, it wouldn’t necessarily go to Doughty) are better players just in general, but no one was better in the Kings’ victories than Williams, and when you lose the maximum number of games in the first three rounds, that’s a really important detail.

More than that, Doughty was -3 in a Finals series where the Kings outscored the Rangers 12-6 on even-strength. Kopitar had just 2 assists in 5 games. Williams? 7 points when no other player on either side had more than 4. No less than 50% of that aforementioned even-strength production was Justin Williams in each of their four victories (2/3, 2/4, 1/2, 1/2).

Now if the same run had happened in the last few years after voting became more public, I wouldn’t be surprised if voters went with a marginally lesser performance to pad a better player’s resume - but that trend might have also been a response to Williams’ win over two star players.

And at this point as a collective, we’ve sort of advocated the re-distribution of 7 of the last 13 Conn Smythe Trophies to defensemen, so there might be middle ground in the actual distribution and how we perceive #1 defensemen.
 
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Big Phil

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This doesn't have a lot of margin of error between the two, but here we go:

2009 Malkin
2008 Zetterberg
2011 Thomas
2015 Keith
2017 Crosby
2018 Ovechkin
2010 Toews
2012 Quick
2014 Williams
2006 Ward
2016 Crosby
2013 Kane
2007 Niedermayer
 
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Kyle McMahon

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I heard much more about Rask and Krejci in a loss or Crawford in a win in 2013 than Duncan Keith, so I don’t know why anyone would necessarily expect Keith to win the way they might have in 2010 or 2015 or think it’s damning that he didn’t. Kane was a weak pick. Anyone on Chicago was a weak pick.

But Justin Williams? None of the top-3 candidates were on the weak-ish side. Everyone can tell you that Doughty and Kopitar (because no, it wouldn’t necessarily go to Doughty) are better players just in general, but no one was better in the Kings’ victories than Williams, and when you lose the maximum number of games in the first three rounds, that’s a really important detail.

More than that, Doughty was -3 in a Finals series where the Kings outscored the Rangers 12-6 on even-strength. Kopitar had just 2 assists in 5 games. Williams? 7 points when no other player on either side had more than 4. No less than 50% of that aforementioned even-strength production was Justin Williams in each of their four victories (2/3, 2/4, 1/2, 1/2).

Now if the same run had happened in the last few years after voting became more public, I wouldn’t be surprised if voters went with a marginally lesser performance to pad a better player’s resume - but that trend might have also been a response to Williams’ win over two star players.

And at this point as a collective, we’ve sort of advocated the re-distribution of 7 of the last 13 Conn Smythe Trophies to defensemen, so there might be middle ground in the actual distribution and how we perceive #1 defensemen.

You're right that there wasn't much talk about Keith in 2013, but that's sort of the point. At worst, his name should have been in the conversation. Maybe like Pronger, the fact that his team won a game while he was suspended gave the voters the impression that he wasn't as valuable as he really was. There seems to be a pretty firm agreement here that Kane's Smythe is one of the weakest in recent history. Never even crossed my mind that he might win it that year, so it was quite a surprise to me. Had they given the trophy to Keith, I'd say it would have been a mid-level win. Ovechkin/Toews/Crosby2.0 territory.

Good points on Doughty. Williams was a bit surprising, but I wouldn't characterize his win as weak either.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I heard much more about Rask and Krejci in a loss or Crawford in a win in 2013 than Duncan Keith, so I don’t know why anyone would necessarily expect Keith to win the way they might have in 2010 or 2015 or think it’s damning that he didn’t. Kane was a weak pick. Anyone on Chicago was a weak pick.

that’s true. when i say all three hawks smythes could have plausibility gone to keith, i certainly don’t mean that 2013 was as dominant as the other two.

just like how kane’s cs year only his third best playoffs.

i remember there was legit discussion about that year’s hawks’ version of j williams, bryan bickell, taking the cs because none of the stars played above and beyond. but of course if you give it to bickell it’s a travesty to not just give it to his linemate and play driver, kane.

as for doughty, stats aside i thought he had a great finals until the last game, when he got embarrassed on one goal (maybe two? i forget). arc-wise, reminiscent of toews in 2010, though toews i thought was much more invisible in his finals series.

i was still on board with doughty, but i expected it to go to kopitar for the obvious reasons. i was shocked actually that it went to williams, because that team had three great timely goal scoring runs (carter and gabo), though williams was the best of the three obviously. to me there was just too much of the thought that if williams didn’t score those goals one of the other guys would have.

i wonder though, if that third period of game six play had been counted as a goal, would gelinas have won the 2004 cs?
 

SirKillalot

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Had to argue against a top four consisting of:
2009 Malkin
2008 Zetterberg
2011 Thomas
2015 Keith

In what order is rough to say. Malkin had the most points. Zetterberg had the most impact moments outside the scoreboard among skaters. Thomas stole games (Except in the finals) and were solid and Keith played a ton at a consistent basis. So, all deserved among the top four list for me. Who makes the 5th spot is a close call for me. Quick has a legit case, but felt he had a lot of help. Williams I really liked as a winner. Ward seems to be a bit underrated as a winner. Toews, Kane, Ovechkin all possibilities around the 6th spot I think. Crosby 2017 and Niedermayer behind there as they weren't clear cut winners (the same can be said about Ovechkin, but his run was better).
 

daver

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Had to argue against a top four consisting of:
2009 Malkin
2008 Zetterberg
2011 Thomas
2015 Keith

In what order is rough to say. Malkin had the most points. Zetterberg had the most impact moments outside the scoreboard among skaters. Thomas stole games (Except in the finals) and were solid and Keith played a ton at a consistent basis. So, all deserved among the top four list for me. Who makes the 5th spot is a close call for me. Quick has a legit case, but felt he had a lot of help. Williams I really liked as a winner. Ward seems to be a bit underrated as a winner. Toews, Kane, Ovechkin all possibilities around the 6th spot I think. Crosby 2017 and Niedermayer behind there as they weren't clear cut winners (the same can be said about Ovechkin, but his run was better).

How OV's run better than Crosby's 2017? Crosby was behind his teammate by one point, OV was behind his linemate by five points. Crosby was the clear cut best player in the SCF, one of the best SCF performance of all the Smythes winners.
 

JaegerDice

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1) Thomas - The 2011 Bruins were actually one of the weaker teams to win the Stanley Cup by performance. Thomas basically dragged a team that got out-shot and out-chanced a ton to a cup.

2) Malkin - Not as weak a team as the Bruins, but the 2009 Penguins were a flawed top-heavy team. I'm actually not convinced they manage to beat a healthy 2009 Red Wings. However, when the top-heavy part of your team are ****ing monsters, and you get a little luck, you can make it work. Malkin was a machine on this run, just an unstoppable force. Usually you picture skill in hockey as the creativity and ability to navigate around people but Malkin was like 'nah, it's cool, I'll just take a straight line through you, thanks', and he did. Over and over and over, and teams gameplanned for it, and players prepared for it, and nobody could do anything to stop him doing whatever he wanted to do, whenever he wanted to do it.

3) Zetterberg - Not much to say. The best performing player on the best team of the cap era, in a methodical, never-in-doubt cup run. When one of your best offensive players is also your best defensivce player, you're going to win a lot of games. It was crazy (and infuriating, as a fan of a rival team) to watch what was essentially mistake-free, perfect hockey from this guy on this run. The only reason I don't put him above Malkin is because he had more support on a better team. That said, it's telling that on a team with that much talent, there was never really a debate over who deserved the MVP that year (that I can remember anyway.... Wings fans, feel free to correct me here). He was just that good.

4) Keith - Everybody knows about the workload this guy started pulled in 2015, but what was shocking as a fan was that he kept getting better as the minutes increased. He actually had kind of an up-and-down first round, and a solid-if-unspectacular 2nd round. He was playing well and putting up points, but he wasn't running away as a conn smythe favorite or anything. It wasn't until the WCF, when the Blackhawks were basically down to 4 guys, that he started going full god mode and just absolutely taking over games in all three zones. Crushing forechecks before they could even start at the blue-line, transitioning play up the ice under pressure like it was nothing, holding the zone, getting back and establishing a gap when there's no way he should have been able to. He was a living cheat code. By the SCF, nobody on the Blackhawks could touch him.

5) Quick - In a vacuum Quick would probably be higher, but he had the fortune (misfortune?) of playing in front of the ridiculous possession juggernaut that was the Los Angeles Kings. A team, that quite frankly, could have won the cup in front of the 2017-2018 iteration of Scott Darling. Which is not to take away from Quick's performance, he was a machine. His raw numbers are testament to that. It's just that him being a machine wasn't the difference between the Kings winning and losing like it was for the four guys ahead of him. Instead, him being a machine was the difference between them winning, and them being 'ok, this is just unfair for everybody else', going up 3-0 every series type domination. For me, that takes away a little bit, but YMMV.

6) Toews - A rough SCF drags him down pretty significantly (if he kept up his performance, he'd be right there with Zetterberg, since he actually outscored Zetterberg over the same number of games played). Pronger did work on him and Kane, then Q split them, and Toews drew the short straw of going up against Pronger shift-after-shift, and yeah, he struggled. Even with that rough SCF, it's impossible to overlook just how dominant Toews was through 3 rounds of the playoffs. Not merely on the scoreboard, leading all Blackhawks (which he did after the finals as well), but in controlling play through all 3 zones. I remember watching games against Vancouver and San Jose, watching what Toews was doing shift after shift and thinking 'I'm supposed to feel nervous... I'm supposed to be on the edge of my seat.... but they don't have a chance. They can't stop him. They can't even get the puck when he's on the ice.'

7) Crosby - People will probably find this funny since I'm a Blackhawks fan and there's the whole Toews meme out there, but I don't have much time for 'intangibles'. Give my points, give me possession, give me xGF%, give me goal differential, give me WAR, give me all that before you start bleating on about leadership or 'will to win' or what have you. But watching Crosby in the playoffs in 2017, was one of the first times I can remember saying out loud 'holy shit, he's really not going to let them lose this, is he?'. And obviously as far as tangibles go, 27 points in 24 games is nothing to sneeze at. But that 2017 Penguins team was NOT the 2016 team that just murdered their way through the playoffs. This was a team getting out-shot, out-chanced every night it seemed, injured and exhausted, and there was Crosby dragging them through. Not alone, obviously. Malkin, Kessel, Murray and Fleury were all great too. But this is where that weird intangibles thing comes in, along with the points... it really did feel like Crosby was driving the bus, and everybody else was falling in line behind him. If all this sounds crazy, well, I don't blame you. But this is my list, so what the hell.

8) Ovechkin - This is where we wade into that rough 'somebody else on the team deserved it' territory, but I personally don't have a problem with Ovechkin winning it. I personally would have gone with Kuznetsov, but Ovechkin had a solid argument based on goals. I liked that he finally put the completely inaccurate narrative that he didn't show up in the playoffs to rest by showing up big time, in big moments, again and again through these playoffs. Rare was the game he wasn't making a significant impact on the ice, one way or another. After watching that run beginning to end, it's hard to argue he isn't the beating heart of that team.

9) Williams - Justin Williams is a great player. I remember back in 2007 or 2008, wading into the advanced stats community, and even then it was clear that Justin Williams was an undervalued asset that drove possession like a machine, among other talents. I remember wanting the Blackhawks to go after him when he was on the trade block in Carolina for being 'injury prone' or whatever. So this is not, in any way, a rip on him.... but I don't think he should have won the Conn Smythe in 2014. He was good throughout the playoffs and had a GREAT finals... my issue is that, his great finals was the difference between the Kings winning the cup in 5 vs winning it in 6 or 7. His peak performance turned a foregone conclusion into a slightly faster foregone conclusion. I think both Doughty and Kopitar were more deserving in 2014. That isn't to say Williams didn't have a leg to stand on, he just wouldn't have been my choice.

10) Crosby - Similarly to Williams in 2014, I don't think selecting Crosby was a crazy, baseless, off-the-board choice. It's just not the choice I would have made. I would have given it to Kessel or Letang. Crosby was great in 2016, and while his defensive game was always underrated, he definitely stepped it up in 2016, and when you pair a good defensive game with a ****ing elite offensive juggernaut, yeah, you're going to get good results, even when he is facing down the toughest competition. 19 points in 24 games isn't going to light anybody's hair on fire, especially by Crosby standards, but it's hardly garbage. The issue is that there were other guys on the team that fulfilled their role to an even higher degree of excellence. That's not a knock on Crosby, that's just further reason to applaud Kessel and Letang. This felt like a bit of a 'lifetime achievement award' at the time, cause nobody knew they were going to go back the next year and Crosby was going to go Terminator. Look, giving a top 5 player all time an award for anything is never particularly dangerous, chances are he was never so terrible or even mediocre that he didn't deserve to be in the conversation. And Crosby deserved to be in the conversation in 2016... I just don't think he should have won.

11) Ward - He wasn't necessarily the wrong choice, he just wasn't a particularly impressive winner. 2006 was a weird year man.

12) Kane - Unlike Crosby in 2016, Kane didn't deserve to be in the conversation in 2013. That's not a knock on Kane. Because frankly, NOBODY on the Blackhawks deserved to be in the conversation for the Conn Smythe other than Corey Crawford. By Kane's own admission, in his first on-ice interview after receiving the Smythe, he said that Crow got robbed. And he did. Kane won the Conn Smythe based on essentially 5 games. Games 4 and 5 of the WCF and games 4, 5 and 6 of the SCF. Prior to game 4 of the WCF, Kane was in the midst of a 7 game pointless streak and on record describing how he and his dad were watching footage of himself from previous playoff runs, to remind him that he was still a good hockey player. That's how badly he was struggling. When he was put on a line with Toews and Bickell, he exploded and became, unquestionably the most dynamic guy on the ice.... until he was broken up from them to start the Boston series and went invisible again, before being reunited and going off again. Crawford was excellent through 4 rounds of the playoffs that year and deserved the Conn Smythe. He had one bad game in the finals, THAT HE WON, and that was enough for the national media that only started watching in the Finals to decide he was out of the running. In any sane universe, there is no argument for Kane over Crawford. /rant


13) Niedermayer - This one actually pissed me off at the time, because it felt like an honest-to-god 'make-up call', only it was done by media instead of referees. Niedermayer probably deserved the Smythe in 2003, but Giguere was such a hot story the media couldn't help themselves. 4 years later they get a chance to make it up to the guy who they kinda f***ed over, and they take it, even though there were several guys on the team that deserved it just as much if not more (Phalsson being my personal pick given the Pronger suspension, though Pronger and Giguere both had sound arguments too). I want to be clear, I love Niedermayer as a player. He's the guy I repeatedly and proudly compare my favorite player ever, Duncan Keith, to. I'm happy to see his hilariously packed trophy case get even more packed. But this wasn't the year, and more than that, it felt cynical and calculated.



Believe it or not, in 2015 people till the last minute wondered if it would be Keith. He wasn't as slam dunk as the retrospect is.

Williams achievements are in plain sight.

'Last minute' is a stretch. Heading into the SCF, Keith wasn't quite a run-away, but people were taking note of how well he was playing and the workload he had. Kane wasn't the only guy in contention with him, Toews one less point than Kane after 3 rounds and was coming off huge performances in the comeback against Anaheim in the WCF, which boosted him up the polls too.

By puck drop of game 6, nobody on the Blackhawks was close to Keith.
 
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Sentinel

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1) Thomas - The 2011 Bruins were actually one of the weaker teams to win the Stanley Cup by performance. Thomas basically dragged a team that got out-shot and out-chanced a ton to a cup.

2) Malkin - Not as weak a team as the Bruins, but the 2009 Penguins were a flawed top-heavy team. I'm actually not convinced they manage to beat a healthy 2009 Red Wings. However, when the top-heavy part of your team are ****ing monsters, and you get a little luck, you can make it work. Malkin was a machine on this run, just an unstoppable force. Usually you picture skill in hockey as the creativity and ability to navigate around people but Malkin was like 'nah, it's cool, I'll just take a straight line through you, thanks', and he did. Over and over and over, and teams gameplanned for it, and players prepared for it, and nobody could do anything to stop him doing whatever he wanted to do, whenever he wanted to do it.

3) Zetterberg - Not much to say. The best performing player on the best team of the cap era, in a methodical, never-in-doubt cup run. When one of your best offensive players is also your best defensivce player, you're going to win a lot of games. It was crazy (and infuriating, as a fan of a rival team) to watch what was essentially mistake-free, perfect hockey from this guy on this run. The only reason I don't put him above Malkin is because he had more support on a better team. That said, it's telling that on a team with that much talent, there was never really a debate over who deserved the MVP that year (that I can remember anyway.... Wings fans, feel free to correct me here). He was just that good.

4) Keith - Everybody knows about the workload this guy started pulled in 2015, but what was shocking as a fan was that he kept getting better as the minutes increased. He actually had kind of an up-and-down first round, and a solid-if-unspectacular 2nd round. He was playing well and putting up points, but he wasn't running away as a conn smythe favorite or anything. It wasn't until the WCF, when the Blackhawks were basically down to 4 guys, that he started going full god mode and just absolutely taking over games in all three zones. Crushing forechecks before they could even start at the blue-line, transitioning play up the ice under pressure like it was nothing, holding the zone, getting back and establishing a gap when there's no way he should have been able to. He was a living cheat code. By the SCF, nobody on the Blackhawks could touch him.

5) Quick - In a vacuum Quick would probably be higher, but he had the fortune (misfortune?) of playing in front of the ridiculous possession juggernaut that was the Los Angeles Kings. A team, that quite frankly, could have won the cup in front of the 2017-2018 iteration of Scott Darling. Which is not to take away from Quick's performance, he was a machine. His raw numbers are testament to that. It's just that him being a machine wasn't the difference between the Kings winning and losing like it was for the four guys ahead of him. Instead, him being a machine was the difference between them winning, and them being 'ok, this is just unfair for everybody else', going up 3-0 every series type domination. For me, that takes away a little bit, but YMMV.

6) Toews - A rough SCF drags him down pretty significantly (if he kept up his performance, he'd be right there with Zetterberg, since he actually outscored Zetterberg over the same number of games played). Pronger did work on him and Kane, then Q split them, and Toews drew the short straw of going up against Pronger shift-after-shift, and yeah, he struggled. Even with that rough SCF, it's impossible to overlook just how dominant Toews was through 3 rounds of the playoffs. Not merely on the scoreboard, leading all Blackhawks (which he did after the finals as well), but in controlling play through all 3 zones. I remember watching games against Vancouver and San Jose, watching what Toews was doing shift after shift and thinking 'I'm supposed to feel nervous... I'm supposed to be on the edge of my seat.... but they don't have a chance. They can't stop him. They can't even get the puck when he's on the ice.'

7) Crosby - People will probably find this funny since I'm a Blackhawks fan and there's the whole Toews meme out there, but I don't have much time for 'intangibles'. Give my points, give me possession, give me xGF%, give me goal differential, give me WAR, give me all that before you start bleating on about leadership or 'will to win' or what have you. But watching Crosby in the playoffs in 2017, was one of the first times I can remember saying out loud 'holy ****, he's really not going to let them lose this, is he?'. And obviously as far as tangibles go, 27 points in 24 games is nothing to sneeze at. But that 2017 Penguins team was NOT the 2016 team that just murdered their way through the playoffs. This was a team getting out-shot, out-chanced every night it seemed, injured and exhausted, and there was Crosby dragging them through. Not alone, obviously. Malkin, Kessel, Murray and Fleury were all great too. But this is where that weird intangibles thing comes in, along with the points... it really did feel like Crosby was driving the bus, and everybody else was falling in line behind him. If all this sounds crazy, well, I don't blame you. But this is my list, so what the hell.

8) Ovechkin - This is where we wade into that rough 'somebody else on the team deserved it' territory, but I personally don't have a problem with Ovechkin winning it. I personally would have gone with Kuznetsov, but Ovechkin had a solid argument based on goals. I liked that he finally put the completely inaccurate narrative that he didn't show up in the playoffs to rest by showing up big time, in big moments, again and again through these playoffs. Rare was the game he wasn't making a significant impact on the ice, one way or another. After watching that run beginning to end, it's hard to argue he isn't the beating heart of that team.

9) Williams - Justin Williams is a great player. I remember back in 2007 or 2008, wading into the advanced stats community, and even then it was clear that Justin Williams was an undervalued asset that drove possession like a machine, among other talents. I remember wanting the Blackhawks to go after him when he was on the trade block in Carolina for being 'injury prone' or whatever. So this is not, in any way, a rip on him.... but I don't think he should have won the Conn Smythe in 2014. He was good throughout the playoffs and had a GREAT finals... my issue is that, his great finals was the difference between the Kings winning the cup in 5 vs winning it in 6 or 7. His peak performance turned a foregone conclusion into a slightly faster foregone conclusion. I think both Doughty and Kopitar were more deserving in 2014. That isn't to say Williams didn't have a leg to stand on, he just wouldn't have been my choice.

10) Crosby - Similarly to Williams in 2014, I don't think selecting Crosby was a crazy, baseless, off-the-board choice. It's just not the choice I would have made. I would have given it to Kessel or Letang. Crosby was great in 2016, and while his defensive game was always underrated, he definitely stepped it up in 2016, and when you pair a good defensive game with a ****ing elite offensive juggernaut, yeah, you're going to get good results, even when he is facing down the toughest competition. 19 points in 24 games isn't going to light anybody's hair on fire, especially by Crosby standards, but it's hardly garbage. The issue is that there were other guys on the team that fulfilled their role to an even higher degree of excellence. That's not a knock on Crosby, that's just further reason to applaud Kessel and Letang. This felt like a bit of a 'lifetime achievement award' at the time, cause nobody knew they were going to go back the next year and Crosby was going to go Terminator. Look, giving a top 5 player all time an award for anything is never particularly dangerous, chances are he was never so terrible or even mediocre that he didn't deserve to be in the conversation. And Crosby deserved to be in the conversation in 2016... I just don't think he should have won.

11) Ward - He wasn't necessarily the wrong choice, he just wasn't a particularly impressive winner. 2006 was a weird year man.

12) Kane - Unlike Crosby in 2016, Kane didn't deserve to be in the conversation in 2013. That's not a knock on Kane. Because frankly, NOBODY on the Blackhawks deserved to be in the conversation for the Conn Smythe other than Corey Crawford. By Kane's own admission, in his first on-ice interview after receiving the Smythe, he said that Crow got robbed. And he did. Kane won the Conn Smythe based on essentially 5 games. Games 4 and 5 of the WCF and games 4, 5 and 6 of the SCF. Prior to game 4 of the WCF, Kane was in the midst of a 7 game pointless streak and on record describing how he and his dad were watching footage of himself from previous playoff runs, to remind him that he was still a good hockey player. That's how badly he was struggling. When he was put on a line with Toews and Bickell, he exploded and became, unquestionably the most dynamic guy on the ice.... until he was broken up from them to start the Boston series and went invisible again, before being reunited and going off again. Crawford was excellent through 4 rounds of the playoffs that year and deserved the Conn Smythe. He had one bad game in the finals, THAT HE WON, and that was enough for the national media that only started watching in the Finals to decide he was out of the running. In any sane universe, there is no argument for Kane over Crawford. /rant


13) Niedermayer - This one actually pissed me off at the time, because it felt like an honest-to-god 'make-up call', only it was done by media instead of referees. Niedermayer probably deserved the Smythe in 2003, but Giguere was such a hot story the media couldn't help themselves. 4 years later they get a chance to make it up to the guy who they kinda ****ed over, and they take it, even though there were several guys on the team that deserved it just as much if not more (Phalsson being my personal pick given the Pronger suspension, though Pronger and Giguere both had sound arguments too). I want to be clear, I love Niedermayer as a player. He's the guy I repeatedly and proudly compare my favorite player ever, Duncan Keith, to. I'm happy to see his hilariously packed trophy case get even more packed. But this wasn't the year, and more than that, it felt cynical and calculated.





'Last minute' is a stretch. Heading into the SCF, Keith wasn't quite a run-away, but people were taking note of how well he was playing and the workload he had. Kane wasn't the only guy in contention with him, Toews one less point than Kane after 3 rounds and was coming off huge performances in the comeback against Anaheim in the WCF, which boosted him up the polls too.

By puck drop of game 6, nobody on the Blackhawks was close to Keith.
Funny that I disagree with virtually EVERYTHING in your long post, except your evaluation of the Blackhawks winners. "Bruins one of the weaker teams"? Malkin on a "deeply flawed, top heavy team"? 08 Wings "never-in-doubt"? LA Kings "could have won the cup in front of the 2017-2018 iteration of Scott Darling"?

I have two explanations for this. Either you and I exist in parallel universes (it's hot in mine now), or, more likely, you only follow your own team.
 

JaegerDice

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Funny that I disagree with virtually EVERYTHING in your long post, except your evaluation of the Blackhawks winners. "Bruins one of the weaker teams"? Malkin on a "deeply flawed, top heavy team"? 08 Wings "never-in-doubt"? LA Kings "could have won the cup in front of the 2017-2018 iteration of Scott Darling"?

I have two explanations for this. Either you and I exist in parallel universes (it's hot in mine now), or, more likely, you only follow your own team.


Oh, well if YOU disagree, then clearly I'm wrong. :rolleyes:

I actually remember all of the cap era Cup runs quite vividly. But in the interest of checking my ego and confirming my memory, I took a look at the numbers.

I'm always curious as to where this myth of the 2011 Bruins as an amazing team came from. Their talent on paper was good, no question, but their actual on-ice performance never was particularly strong outside of Thomas.

I'm going to provide some numbers, but they're almost certainly unnecessary for anybody that actually WATCHED the games. It was pretty clear to anybody with functioning eye-balls that the team was consistently getting their asses bailed out by Thomas being nuclear hot. Even WITH his historic performance, they had to scratch out 3 separate 7 game series... if you're scratching and clawing to win with a 95% SV% 5v5, you know the team in front of the goalie is struggling a bit.

In the 2011 regular season, their Score-Adjusted CF% of 51.26 was only 12th best in the league. Their SF% (SOG share) of 50.17 was even worse at 16th best in the league. Their xGF% (scoring chance share) of 49.38 was 20th in the league. And it's not like they were playing some lock-down, defensive, low-event hockey... they were drowning in attempts against (7th worst CA/60 in the league), shots against (2nd worst shots against in the league), and scoring chances against (xGA/60 8th worst in the league). Yet they LED the league in goal differential despite a good-but-not great xGF/60 (10th best in the league), simply because they had a goalie putting up historic numbers behind them, saving their asses and keeping goals out of the net.

Their defensive issues continued into the playoffs. Of the 16 playoff teams they were 7th best in limiting attempts against (CA/60), 13th best in limiting SOG against (SA/60), and 7th best at limiting scoring chances against (xGA/60). But again, they led in goal differential and goals against in particular, because they were leaning on a historic goalie performance. Now that said, in addition to Thomas playing out of his mind and keeping his team in games, the team played a lot better offensively as well. Their xGF jumped from 10th best to 6th best. This isn't a perfect comparison obviously, because all the different playoff teams played a different number of games, against different combinations of opponents.

But when you compare their playoff performance historically to the other cup winners of the cap era, they don't really fare much better. Going back to the 2008 winners (thats when NHL started tracking stats beyond shots) Boston ranks out of 11 in the following stats for their playoff run:

8th in CF%
4th in CF/60
11th in CA/60

10th in SF%
6th in SF/60
11th in SA/60

8th in xGF%
5th in xGF/60
8th in xGA/60

2nd in GF%
1st in SV%

(all numbers 5v5)

They weren't a BAD team. Bad teams don't win Stanley Cups. But they were NOT a dominant team. They were a pretty good team with an exceptional goalie performance. A performance that was the strongest MVP performance of the cap era, as it was the closest thing to a one-man show you'll see.



As far as the Red Wings in 08, no, it was never in doubt they were going to win. Not only were they far and away the best team in the regular season by pretty much every metric, but they never trailed in a series through the playoffs. Hell, they never looked particularly out of control of any game they played. It was men against boys every night. They were the best team of the cap era by on-ice performance, and really, only the 2013 Blackhawks and 2016 Penguins are even in the conversation. Let's compare them to the other cup winners of the cap era since 2008:

1st in CF%
1st in CF/60
1st in CA/60

1st in SF%
2nd in SF/60
1st in SA/60

1st in xGF%
3rd in xGF/60
2nd in xGA/60

1st in GF%
3rd in SV%

(all numbers 5v5)

It really wasn't close. They're the best cup winner of the cap era, and the gap between them and the field during the year they won is obviously larger than the gap between them and the teams that also climbed the mountain since.

Again, the numbers aren't really necessary for anybody that watched. It was clear to anybody at the time that Detroit was far and away the best team in the league, and none of their playoff opponents that year really stood a chance.


The 09 Penguins were flawed, top heavy team. That doesn't mean they were a BAD team, obviously. Bad teams don't win Stanley Cups. It's simply a matter that their top guys, who happen to be the elite of the elite, carried more of the load than other top guys on other Stanley Cup winners. You can take it as a knock against the team, or a tip of the hat to Malkin and Sid. Compared to the other teams of the cap era they were:

10th in CF%
10th in CF/60
7th in CA/60

6th in SF%
7th in SF/60
7th in SA/60

5th in xGF%
4th in xGF/60
7th in xGA/60

11th in GF%
11th in SV%

(all numbers 5v5)

Obviously anybody actually watching the games could see what the numbers tell. A team that relied on their elite players to generate enough chances to out-score their team's problems. This was NOT the Penguins team that murdered their way through the playoffs in 2016.


The 2012 Kings comment was obviously an exaggeration. My point was that they didn't need Quick to put up 930+ in order to waltz through the NHL that year. They were performing at such a level and were such possession juggernauts, that most teams weren't even able to generate enough scoring chances to be a legitimate threat. He took them from certainly winning, to utterly, laughably dominating.

Given how strongly the numbers support my view (aka, the view of those with functioning eyeballs and hippocampus), it seems most likely you are the one living in an alternate dimension. I hope you find your way home one day.

Cheers!
 
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Michael Farkas

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With all the cutting remarks, it would have been better if it was a more critically thought out recap of the events. It actually reads the opposite of how I think you intend it and it doesn't really jive with the reality of the situation at all in my opinion. I see things like corsi and whatever being in there, which makes sense given the lack of tactical knowledge expressed - and that's fine, I don't say that as if you don't have a hippocampus or whatever noise - but making it seem like other people are crazy after you posting that pretty tall tale of the proceedings is really disingenuous...even by internet standards...

The good point: 2008 Red Wings, they were the best of the bunch...
The funny point: "the league started keeping stats beyond shots in 2008" *then cites nothing but shot and goal statistics*
The bad point: Eeeeeeeeehhh...tough to pick one...I guess equating shots against and defense, that's some old, old school thinking there...like 30 years ago stuff...the Penguins being top heavy given Maxime Talbot, a 4C, in their top six and having their third line being so blatantly instrumental in their success...taking Thomas' wholly unreliable goaltending as tops and Quick's wholly reliable goaltending as useless (or whatever, diminished to some ridiculous regard) might just take the cake, there can't be much of a coaching/scouting background there on that take...that's just a lazy, lazy stat-grab...

No sir, I don't like it.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
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With all the cutting remarks, it would have been better if it was a more critically thought out recap of the events. It actually reads the opposite of how I think you intend it and it doesn't really jive with the reality of the situation at all in my opinion. I see things like corsi and whatever being in there, which makes sense given the lack of tactical knowledge expressed - and that's fine, I don't say that as if you don't have a hippocampus or whatever noise - but making it seem like other people are crazy after you posting that pretty tall tale of the proceedings is really disingenuous...even by internet standards...

The good point: 2008 Red Wings, they were the best of the bunch...
The funny point: "the league started keeping stats beyond shots in 2008" *then cites nothing but shot and goal statistics*
The bad point: Eeeeeeeeehhh...tough to pick one...I guess equating shots against and defense, that's some old, old school thinking there...like 30 years ago stuff...the Penguins being top heavy given Maxime Talbot, a 4C, in their top six and having their third line being so blatantly instrumental in their success...taking Thomas' wholly unreliable goaltending as tops and Quick's wholly reliable goaltending as useless (or whatever, diminished to some ridiculous regard) might just take the cake, there can't be much of a coaching/scouting background there on that take...that's just a lazy, lazy stat-grab...

No sir, I don't like it.

Ok, dislike it. You're free to disagree with simple, objective counts of on-ice events if you like. You're also free to believe in the great flying spahgetti monster if that's your thing. You do you.

There's nothing unreliable about a 95% 5v5 SV%, which is what Thomas provided. That's incredibly reliable. Quick's goaltending was also reliable... it was simply reliable in front of a team that didn't NEED elite goaltending to win in the same way the 2011 Bruins did need elite goaltending to win. Again, Quick took a team that was going to win anyway, and turned them into a team that laughed their way to the cup, going up 3-0 in every series. That doesn't mean he was bad, it means his impact wasn't quite as critical to the team actually winning the cup.

As far as 'lack of tactical knowledge' rest assured there is no tactic in the NHL based on the tenet of 'let the other team out-shoot and out-chance us game in, game out so that we can win'. Teams that are out-shot and out-chanced lose unless they have the benefit of elite goal-tending or elite scoring, and rest assured, even teams with those benefits would prefer to have those AND out-shoot and out-chance the opposition (like say, the 2008 Red Wings, the 2013 Blackhawks and the 2016 Penguins). Any one stat can't sum up defense entirely, but rest assured if you suck at suppressing attempts AND suck at suppressing shots AND suck at suppressing scoring chances.... guess what.... you suck at defense. There's a difference between winning BECAUSE you outplay the opponent and winning IN SPITE of being outplayed.

As far as the stats listed, there were CF% (shot attempts, neither shot nor goal stat), SF% (shots, if you want CAR and ANA added, go right ahead, you can find the shot stats on NHL.com and do the math yourself), xGF% (scoring chances, integrated shots, shot attempts, scoring chances, shot distance, shot type, etc, all data that started being tracked in 2008), and GF% (goals, used purely to illustrate the disproportionate impact of elite goaltending on a team's ability to win goal-differential despite being out-played on a nightly basis). Honestly your comments speak to a misunderstanding of the nature of the data provided, which may explain your opposition to it.
 
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Nick Hansen

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TT got it done in a way very few have. Maybe it was unconventional and 'bad' from a technical perspective - he still got it done in a legendary fashion. Who would I choose between Quick and Thomas (and their respective performances) with a gun to my head? Quick. But that doesn't take away that much from what Thomas did.
 

Cursed Lemon

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2009 - Malkin
2011 - Thomas
2008/2015 - Zetterberg/Keith
2012 - Quick
2013 - Kane
2007 - Niedermayer
2018/2017 - Ovechkin/Crosby
2014 - Williams
2010 - Toews
2006 - Ward
2016 - Crosby
 
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Sentinel

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JaegerDice: you clearly don't remember the circumstances of the 2008 Wings win. After four playoff collapses in a row (03, 04, 06, and 07), all of them -- after dominant seasons, nobody in Detroit believed "this would be the time." After the Wings with Hasek in net have blown a two game lead in the first round to the lowly Predators, the sentiment was "here we go again." When the Wings went to Osgood, it did little to instill confidence in the fans, because we all remembered how average-to-bad he could be. Somehow he completely turned the series around, and the Wings never looked back, but the only series when the outcome was never in doubt was Franzen vs. Colorado. At all other times we fully expected Wings to collapse again. Till the last second (the Hossa miss), that series was a question mark.
 

JackSlater

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I lean much more toward the 2008 finals being in the bag for Detroit than being in doubt until the end. Honestly the biggest worry was probably in the first round after game four. The Colorado series was beyond easy for Detroit and Dallas wasn't a realistic threat. Pittsburgh was clearly outmatched unless Crosby and Malkin went off and once it was apparent that Malkin was playing terrible that series wasn't much of a question either. Certainly everyone that I recall expected Detroit to at least waltz through the first three series and that's close enough to what happened.
 

Sentinel

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I lean much more toward the 2008 finals being in the bag for Detroit than being in doubt until the end. Honestly the biggest worry was probably in the first round after game four. The Colorado series was beyond easy for Detroit and Dallas wasn't a realistic threat. Pittsburgh was clearly outmatched unless Crosby and Malkin went off and once it was apparent that Malkin was playing terrible that series wasn't much of a question either. Certainly everyone that I recall expected Detroit to at least waltz through the first three series and that's close enough to what happened.
"Everyone expected" Detroit to "waltz through" Anaheim in 2003, Calgary in 2004, Edmonton in 2006, and even Pronger-less Anaheim in 2007. At 2008 NOBODY took anything for granted until the final whistle in each of the four series.
 

GreatGonzo

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1) Thomas - The 2011 Bruins were actually one of the weaker teams to win the Stanley Cup by performance. Thomas basically dragged a team that got out-shot and out-chanced a ton to a cup.

2) Malkin - Not as weak a team as the Bruins, but the 2009 Penguins were a flawed top-heavy team. I'm actually not convinced they manage to beat a healthy 2009 Red Wings. However, when the top-heavy part of your team are ****ing monsters, and you get a little luck, you can make it work. Malkin was a machine on this run, just an unstoppable force. Usually you picture skill in hockey as the creativity and ability to navigate around people but Malkin was like 'nah, it's cool, I'll just take a straight line through you, thanks', and he did. Over and over and over, and teams gameplanned for it, and players prepared for it, and nobody could do anything to stop him doing whatever he wanted to do, whenever he wanted to do it.

3) Zetterberg - Not much to say. The best performing player on the best team of the cap era, in a methodical, never-in-doubt cup run. When one of your best offensive players is also your best defensivce player, you're going to win a lot of games. It was crazy (and infuriating, as a fan of a rival team) to watch what was essentially mistake-free, perfect hockey from this guy on this run. The only reason I don't put him above Malkin is because he had more support on a better team. That said, it's telling that on a team with that much talent, there was never really a debate over who deserved the MVP that year (that I can remember anyway.... Wings fans, feel free to correct me here). He was just that good.

4) Keith - Everybody knows about the workload this guy started pulled in 2015, but what was shocking as a fan was that he kept getting better as the minutes increased. He actually had kind of an up-and-down first round, and a solid-if-unspectacular 2nd round. He was playing well and putting up points, but he wasn't running away as a conn smythe favorite or anything. It wasn't until the WCF, when the Blackhawks were basically down to 4 guys, that he started going full god mode and just absolutely taking over games in all three zones. Crushing forechecks before they could even start at the blue-line, transitioning play up the ice under pressure like it was nothing, holding the zone, getting back and establishing a gap when there's no way he should have been able to. He was a living cheat code. By the SCF, nobody on the Blackhawks could touch him.

5) Quick - In a vacuum Quick would probably be higher, but he had the fortune (misfortune?) of playing in front of the ridiculous possession juggernaut that was the Los Angeles Kings. A team, that quite frankly, could have won the cup in front of the 2017-2018 iteration of Scott Darling. Which is not to take away from Quick's performance, he was a machine. His raw numbers are testament to that. It's just that him being a machine wasn't the difference between the Kings winning and losing like it was for the four guys ahead of him. Instead, him being a machine was the difference between them winning, and them being 'ok, this is just unfair for everybody else', going up 3-0 every series type domination. For me, that takes away a little bit, but YMMV.

6) Toews - A rough SCF drags him down pretty significantly (if he kept up his performance, he'd be right there with Zetterberg, since he actually outscored Zetterberg over the same number of games played). Pronger did work on him and Kane, then Q split them, and Toews drew the short straw of going up against Pronger shift-after-shift, and yeah, he struggled. Even with that rough SCF, it's impossible to overlook just how dominant Toews was through 3 rounds of the playoffs. Not merely on the scoreboard, leading all Blackhawks (which he did after the finals as well), but in controlling play through all 3 zones. I remember watching games against Vancouver and San Jose, watching what Toews was doing shift after shift and thinking 'I'm supposed to feel nervous... I'm supposed to be on the edge of my seat.... but they don't have a chance. They can't stop him. They can't even get the puck when he's on the ice.'

7) Crosby - People will probably find this funny since I'm a Blackhawks fan and there's the whole Toews meme out there, but I don't have much time for 'intangibles'. Give my points, give me possession, give me xGF%, give me goal differential, give me WAR, give me all that before you start bleating on about leadership or 'will to win' or what have you. But watching Crosby in the playoffs in 2017, was one of the first times I can remember saying out loud 'holy ****, he's really not going to let them lose this, is he?'. And obviously as far as tangibles go, 27 points in 24 games is nothing to sneeze at. But that 2017 Penguins team was NOT the 2016 team that just murdered their way through the playoffs. This was a team getting out-shot, out-chanced every night it seemed, injured and exhausted, and there was Crosby dragging them through. Not alone, obviously. Malkin, Kessel, Murray and Fleury were all great too. But this is where that weird intangibles thing comes in, along with the points... it really did feel like Crosby was driving the bus, and everybody else was falling in line behind him. If all this sounds crazy, well, I don't blame you. But this is my list, so what the hell.

8) Ovechkin - This is where we wade into that rough 'somebody else on the team deserved it' territory, but I personally don't have a problem with Ovechkin winning it. I personally would have gone with Kuznetsov, but Ovechkin had a solid argument based on goals. I liked that he finally put the completely inaccurate narrative that he didn't show up in the playoffs to rest by showing up big time, in big moments, again and again through these playoffs. Rare was the game he wasn't making a significant impact on the ice, one way or another. After watching that run beginning to end, it's hard to argue he isn't the beating heart of that team.

9) Williams - Justin Williams is a great player. I remember back in 2007 or 2008, wading into the advanced stats community, and even then it was clear that Justin Williams was an undervalued asset that drove possession like a machine, among other talents. I remember wanting the Blackhawks to go after him when he was on the trade block in Carolina for being 'injury prone' or whatever. So this is not, in any way, a rip on him.... but I don't think he should have won the Conn Smythe in 2014. He was good throughout the playoffs and had a GREAT finals... my issue is that, his great finals was the difference between the Kings winning the cup in 5 vs winning it in 6 or 7. His peak performance turned a foregone conclusion into a slightly faster foregone conclusion. I think both Doughty and Kopitar were more deserving in 2014. That isn't to say Williams didn't have a leg to stand on, he just wouldn't have been my choice.

10) Crosby - Similarly to Williams in 2014, I don't think selecting Crosby was a crazy, baseless, off-the-board choice. It's just not the choice I would have made. I would have given it to Kessel or Letang. Crosby was great in 2016, and while his defensive game was always underrated, he definitely stepped it up in 2016, and when you pair a good defensive game with a ****ing elite offensive juggernaut, yeah, you're going to get good results, even when he is facing down the toughest competition. 19 points in 24 games isn't going to light anybody's hair on fire, especially by Crosby standards, but it's hardly garbage. The issue is that there were other guys on the team that fulfilled their role to an even higher degree of excellence. That's not a knock on Crosby, that's just further reason to applaud Kessel and Letang. This felt like a bit of a 'lifetime achievement award' at the time, cause nobody knew they were going to go back the next year and Crosby was going to go Terminator. Look, giving a top 5 player all time an award for anything is never particularly dangerous, chances are he was never so terrible or even mediocre that he didn't deserve to be in the conversation. And Crosby deserved to be in the conversation in 2016... I just don't think he should have won.

11) Ward - He wasn't necessarily the wrong choice, he just wasn't a particularly impressive winner. 2006 was a weird year man.

12) Kane - Unlike Crosby in 2016, Kane didn't deserve to be in the conversation in 2013. That's not a knock on Kane. Because frankly, NOBODY on the Blackhawks deserved to be in the conversation for the Conn Smythe other than Corey Crawford. By Kane's own admission, in his first on-ice interview after receiving the Smythe, he said that Crow got robbed. And he did. Kane won the Conn Smythe based on essentially 5 games. Games 4 and 5 of the WCF and games 4, 5 and 6 of the SCF. Prior to game 4 of the WCF, Kane was in the midst of a 7 game pointless streak and on record describing how he and his dad were watching footage of himself from previous playoff runs, to remind him that he was still a good hockey player. That's how badly he was struggling. When he was put on a line with Toews and Bickell, he exploded and became, unquestionably the most dynamic guy on the ice.... until he was broken up from them to start the Boston series and went invisible again, before being reunited and going off again. Crawford was excellent through 4 rounds of the playoffs that year and deserved the Conn Smythe. He had one bad game in the finals, THAT HE WON, and that was enough for the national media that only started watching in the Finals to decide he was out of the running. In any sane universe, there is no argument for Kane over Crawford. /rant


13) Niedermayer - This one actually pissed me off at the time, because it felt like an honest-to-god 'make-up call', only it was done by media instead of referees. Niedermayer probably deserved the Smythe in 2003, but Giguere was such a hot story the media couldn't help themselves. 4 years later they get a chance to make it up to the guy who they kinda ****ed over, and they take it, even though there were several guys on the team that deserved it just as much if not more (Phalsson being my personal pick given the Pronger suspension, though Pronger and Giguere both had sound arguments too). I want to be clear, I love Niedermayer as a player. He's the guy I repeatedly and proudly compare my favorite player ever, Duncan Keith, to. I'm happy to see his hilariously packed trophy case get even more packed. But this wasn't the year, and more than that, it felt cynical and calculated.





'Last minute' is a stretch. Heading into the SCF, Keith wasn't quite a run-away, but people were taking note of how well he was playing and the workload he had. Kane wasn't the only guy in contention with him, Toews one less point than Kane after 3 rounds and was coming off huge performances in the comeback against Anaheim in the WCF, which boosted him up the polls too.

By puck drop of game 6, nobody on the Blackhawks was close to Keith.

Not bias at all.....are you still trying to sell us this idea that Toews was that good?

First, Toews wasn’t hardly used defensively that post season. He wasn’t the match up center, but took on a much more offensive role with Kane on his wing. Second, Toews SCF performance should definitely lower his stock. Although he wasn’t dominant offensively and scored a ton of points(mostly on the PP) outside of offense, he wasn’t that special.

Crosby was much more dominant in 2017.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
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"Everyone expected" Detroit to "waltz through" Anaheim in 2003, Calgary in 2004, Edmonton in 2006, and even Pronger-less Anaheim in 2007. At 2008 NOBODY took anything for granted until the final whistle in each of the four series.

Yes, and Detroit actually did it in 2008. There is no need to pretend that it was some arduous challenge for Detroit where the result was always in question, at least compared to what the typical road to the Cup is. Plenty of people, myself included, absolutely expected Detroit to easily win several of those series in 2008.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,185
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Not bias at all.....are you still trying to sell us this idea that Toews was that good?

First, Toews wasn’t hardly used defensively that post season. He wasn’t the match up center, but took on a much more offensive role with Kane on his wing. Second, Toews SCF performance should definitely lower his stock. Although he wasn’t dominant offensively and scored a ton of points(mostly on the PP) outside of offense, he wasn’t that special.

Crosby was much more dominant in 2017.

Well first of all, I'm hardly the only guy in this thread to put Toews in 2010 ahead of Crosby in 2017.

Toews was absolute monster in that cup run. He was so dominant through the first 3 rounds that by the time the finals hit, he was basically a lock for the Conn Smythe if the Blackhawks won (just as it was essentially decided that Pronger would win it if the Flyers won, unless Briere REALLY went off).

And I did knock him for his performance in the final (or at least his lack of production). Like I said in the blurb, had he kept up his level of performance through the final, he'd be around Zetterberg on my list (even with the poor final, Toews still outscored Zetterberg in the same number of games played in their runs, but obviously production isn't the only thing that matters).

You're right about Toews deployment, he was used in a far more offensive role in 2010. Actually his relative ZSR and QoC (TOI, CF and xGF) in 2010 were all very close to Crosby's in 2017.


Toews 2010
Rel.ZSR: +15.14
TOI.QoC: 30.65
CF.QoC: 51.68
xGF.QoC: 51.88

CF%: 57.3
Rel.CF%: +8.7

SF%: 57.58
Rel.SF%: +6.2

xGF%: 54.55
Rel.xGF%: +3.8

GF%: 53.33
Rel.GF%: -1.84




Crosby 2017
Rel.ZSR: +14.87
TOI.QoC: 30.1
CF.QoC: 50.9
xGF.QoC: 50.51

CF%: 49.36
Rel.CF%: +4.02

SF%: 46.6
Rel.SF%: -1.92

xGF%: 48.84
Rel.xGF%: +0.27

GF%: 51.43
Rel.GF%: -3.12


They had similar usage on their teams in those two runs, but Toews controlled play a great deal better, and out-performed his teammates by a wider margin. But you're right that Crosby out-performed Toews in raw individual 5v5 production, which certainly can't and shouldn't be ignored.

I guess you could flip flop those two on the list. I'm not sure I would, but it's not an insane position. I stand by my description of Toews utter dominance through three rounds though. It was something to watch.
 

GreatGonzo

Surrounded by Snowflakes
May 26, 2011
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Well first of all, I'm hardly the only guy in this thread to put Toews in 2010 ahead of Crosby in 2017.

Toews was absolute monster in that cup run. He was so dominant through the first 3 rounds that by the time the finals hit, he was basically a lock for the Conn Smythe if the Blackhawks won (just as it was essentially decided that Pronger would win it if the Flyers won, unless Briere REALLY went off).

And I did knock him for his performance in the final (or at least his lack of production). Like I said in the blurb, had he kept up his level of performance through the final, he'd be around Zetterberg on my list (even with the poor final, Toews still outscored Zetterberg in the same number of games played in their runs, but obviously production isn't the only thing that matters).

You're right about Toews deployment, he was used in a far more offensive role in 2010. Actually his relative ZSR and QoC (TOI, CF and xGF) in 2010 were all very close to Crosby's in 2017.


Toews 2010
Rel.ZSR: +15.14
TOI.QoC: 30.65
CF.QoC: 51.68
xGF.QoC: 51.88

CF%: 57.3
Rel.CF%: +8.7

SF%: 57.58
Rel.SF%: +6.2

xGF%: 54.55
Rel.xGF%: +3.8

GF%: 53.33
Rel.GF%: -1.84




Crosby 2017
Rel.ZSR: +14.87
TOI.QoC: 30.1
CF.QoC: 50.9
xGF.QoC: 50.51

CF%: 49.36
Rel.CF%: +4.02

SF%: 46.6
Rel.SF%: -1.92

xGF%: 48.84
Rel.xGF%: +0.27

GF%: 51.43
Rel.GF%: -3.12


They had similar usage on their teams in those two runs, but Toews controlled play a great deal better, and out-performed his teammates by a wider margin. But you're right that Crosby out-performed Toews in raw individual 5v5 production, which certainly can't and shouldn't be ignored.

I guess you could flip flop those two on the list. I'm not sure I would, but it's not an insane position. I stand by my description of Toews utter dominance through three rounds though. It was something to watch.
I agree with everything other than he “out played his teammates by a wider margin.” Kane was 1 point behind Toews and was much better at ES and during their cup run. I’m sure Toews had it locked by the time he got done man handling Vancouver, but had Kane was right there with Toews a majority of the playoffs and ended it on a much higher note than Toews. It would be much more controversial if Kane had tied, or even passed Toews in points after the finals was done with. If it wasn’t for Kane, Toews wouldn’t have a Smythe, Crosby didn’t have anyone win it for him.

In the end, I think Crosby’s Finals showing in 2017 is the difference maker between the two. Not to mention the fact that another player(Briere) had a much better finals showing AND playoffs than Toews did.....Malkin had his shot to seal the deal, but Crosby took the wheel, there was no debate, no controversy....it was Crosby. I give him more credit for finishing the job and not being out played by anyone, like how Toews was.
 

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