Rank Niklas Kronwall in the Wings' All Time Defensemen

[MBH]

Where does Niklas Kronwall rank among all-time Red Wings defensemen?

Here's where he ranks in some career stats.

Games played, 953.
3rd, behind Lidstrom and Pronovost.

Goals, 83
4th, behind Lidstrom, Larson and Kelly

Assists. 349.
3rd. Behind Lidstrom and Larson.

Points, 432
4th, behind Lidstrom, Larson and Kelly.

----
Other considerations.
Lidstrom 7 Norris Trophies
Coffey 1 Norris Trophy
Kelly 1 Norris Trophy

Kronwall - Finished 10, 13 and 14 in Norris voting.
Konstantinov. 446 games. 175 points. _+185. Finished 2nd and 4th in Norris voting.
Coffey - 231 games 239 points. +72. Won once, finished 9th, 9th and 7th.
Chelios - 578 games. 152 points. +158. Finished 2nd, 6th and 17th in Norris voting.
Pronovost. 983 games. 297 points. 5 top 5 finishes.
Kelly 846 games 472 points. One Norris. 3 more top 3 finishes. 5 top 10 finishes in Hart voting. Won the first Norris, or might have several more.
Larson 708 games 570 points. -139. 10th, 10th and 18th in voting.
Lidstrom 1564 games. 1142 points. +450. 7 Norris trophies. 7 Norris trophies. 10 more top 10 finishes. 7 top 10 Hart finishes.
Gary Bergman. 706 games. 303 points. +2-. 1 top 10 Norris finish.
Rafalski. 292 games. 204 points. +78. 9th, 9th and 12th in Norris voting.
Larry Murphy. 312 games. 171 points. Whatever.

Obviously, Lidstrom is #1. Kelly is easily #2. I think Pronovost locks up #3 easily.
But after that, things get tricky.
In terms of goals, assists and points and games, Kronwall and Larson can easily lay claim to 4th. Larson easily bests Kronwall in the G-A-P department, but Kronwall played in a tighter era and won a cup, while Larson lost a ton.
Then there are some of the players who weren't here as long, but made a huge impact. Konstantinov. Chelios. Rafalski. Coffey.
Coffey won a Norris. Konstantinov should have won a Norris. Chelios was 2nd in Norris voting. Chelios won 2 cups. Konstantinov and Rafalski won cups.
I go with Vladdie here, because he was near the top of the league... a major impact player and he played a lot more games than someone like Coffey or Rafalski.
I chose Kronwall over Larson because he played in a tougher era and won a cup.


#1. Niklas Lidstrom
#2. Red Kelly
#3. Marcel Pronovost
-----
#4. VladimirKonstantinov
#5. Niklas Kronwall
#6. Chris Chelios
#7. Reed Larson
#8. Paul Coffey
#9. Brian Rafalski
#10. Larry Murphy

Side note:
Don't look now, but Ericsson is 6th all time in games played among Red Wings defensemen. Could easily move into 4th by the end of the season.
Dekeyser is 14th. Could be top 10 by the end of the season.

Click to read more...

 

[newfy]

I agree with your top 3. I think Vladdy couldve been number 3 or 4 had he played more, but 6 seasons on an original 6 team with no real hardware isnt enough to be ranked that highly. Coffey won a norris trophy in Detroit so that automatically gets him considered despite only playing 4 years in Detroit. Then theres guys like Pronovost who from what I've read is probably third. Also should consider some old hall of famers like Goodfellow and especially Quackenbush. If I had to guess without looking into it more:

Lidstrom
Kelly
Pronovost
(easy top 3)
Quackenbush
Goodfellow
and maybe Kronwall here if you value time spent with the team over Coffeys Norris trophy

 

[TheOtherOne]

Don't look now, but Ericsson is 6th all time in games played among Red Wings defensemen. Could easily move into 4th by the end of the season.

Not bad for a 291st overall

 

[MBH]

I agree with your top 3. I think Vladdy couldve been number 3 or 4 had he played more, but 6 seasons on an original 6 team with no real hardware isnt enough to be ranked that highly. Coffey won a norris trophy in Detroit so that automatically gets him considered despite only playing 4 years in Detroit. Then theres guys like Pronovost who from what I've read is probably third. Also should consider some old hall of famers like Goodfellow and especially Quackenbush. If I had to guess without looking into it more:

Lidstrom
Kelly
Pronovost
(easy top 3)
Quackenbush
Goodfellow
and maybe Kronwall here if you value time spent with the team over Coffeys Norris trophy

I never even saw Quackenbush and Goodfellow.
Quackenbush - three-time first team all star. Twice in Detroit.
Still, it was a small league too, So that balances it.
Goodfellow won the Hart as a defenseman... so I'd put him up over the top 3 I have.

You have Kronwall over Vladdie?


I rank Vladdie well over Coffey, too. Norris or not.

 

[newfy]

I never even saw Quackenbush and Goodfellow.
Quackenbush - three-time first team all star. Twice in Detroit.
Still, it was a small league too, So that balances it.
Goodfellow won the Hart as a defenseman... so I'd put him up over the top 3 I have.

You have Kronwall over Vladdie?


I rank Vladdie well over Coffey, too. Norris or not.

Vladdy is more feelings over objectivity I think for a lot of people. He was a top pairing D for 6 seasons in Detroit. Lets say he gets traded after 97 instead of hurt like that, do people rank him over Coffey and his norris? I think it would be a lot closer than some would admit since Coffey has that Norris but Vladdy was big in a cup win as well so hard to say for sure. I lean towards Vladdy but not sure I would if images of him being handed the cup in a wheel chair werent in my head either.

I never saw Quackenbush or Goodfellow but the wings have been around for a while so gotta include everyone. Based on what I've read and what they won etc I think they need to be considered. Quackenbush played before the Norris so its possible he has a norris or two if the award exists given that he was a first team all star three times

 

[Retire91]

I think its a great list. IMO Coffey, Rafalski, Murphy, Chelios are kinda * players to me. They came in pretty well after their peak or had a pretty short stay. Kinda like Hull if you consider Hull's entire career he is one of the greatest Red Wings of all time, but truthfully while a Red Wing he was really a depth player. Especially Chelios, his last several seasons with the Red Wings he was just basically a player/bench coach.

I might put Larson ahead of Chelios for games played, they are close in games played but Chelios last couple of seasons I think harm his case more than help it. I think I would also put Coffey and Rafalski above Chelios too although they have fewer games played they were more impactful during their stay. Let's be realistic Chelios got about 4-5 extra seasons because who he was and he wanted to still play.

My personal list

First-tier - top defenseman and career wings
---
#1. Niklas Lidstrom
#2. Red Kelly
#3. Marcel Pronovost
#4. Niklas Kronwall
#5. Reed Larson

Second-tier - would have been tier one if it wasn't for tragedy :*(
---
#6. Vladimir Konstantinov - games played is a challenge but I just can't bring myself to disqualify the what if's


Third-tier - incredible players brought in for a few seasons towards the end of their careers. This teir is probably a lot bigger if we picked through red wings roster history
-----
#7. Paul Coffey*
#8. Brian Rafalski*
#9. Chris Chelios*
#10. Larry Murphy*
#11. Viacheslav Fetisov*

 

[PelagicJoe]

Looking at this thread makes me sad. We were spoiled in the 90s and 2000s with all of those defenders.

I'd rank Paul Coffey higher just because he is a top 5 all time defenseman.

Kronwall.... somewhere in the 5-7 range. Technically all the other names had better careers than Kronwall, but Kronwall was a career wing.

 

[jprenkert]

Hes a steady second pairing type. Didnt do anything crazy as a first pairing guy. Feel he was steady but didnt stand out. No offensive number that stuck out, no Norris nods. He seems to have been good and not great. Only made a real impact paired with Stuart in 08-10.

Rafalski, Murphy, Chelios, Vladdy, Nick, Pronovost, Kelly would be all ranked higher than Kronwall.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

He is behind Lidstrom, Kelly, Pronovost, Konstantinov, Stewart, Goodfellow, and Larsson. He was a very good #2/#3 through most of his career.

 

[Peter Tosh]

First-tier - top defenseman and career wings
---
#1. Niklas Lidstrom
#2. Red Kelly
#3. Marcel Pronovost
#4. Niklas Kronwall
#5. Reed Larson

Second-tier - would have been tier one if it wasn't for tragedy :*(
---
#6. Vladimir Konstantinov - games played is a challenge but I just can't bring myself to disqualify the what if's


Third-tier - incredible players brought in for a few seasons towards the end of their careers. This teir is probably a lot bigger if we picked through red wings roster history
-----
#7. Paul Coffey*
#8. Brian Rafalski*
#9. Chris Chelios*
#10. Larry Murphy*
#11. Viacheslav Fetisov*

Jiri Fischer falls in to the same category as Vladdy. Lots of tragedy and many what ifs.

 

[Retire91]

You are so right I remember the last game I saw Fisher in and I was like man this kid is getting good.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't see how Kronwall would be above Chelios. Maybe the later years when he was slow as molasses are coloring people's memories of him?

Cheli played 10 seasons with the Wings, which is longer than his time with Montreal or Chicago. He was a Norris runner up in 2002 behind Lidstrom. That's rarified are Kronwall never breathed.

 

[MBH]

Vladdy is more feelings over objectivity I think for a lot of people. He was a top pairing D for 6 seasons in Detroit. Lets say he gets traded after 97 instead of hurt like that, do people rank him over Coffey and his norris? I think it would be a lot closer than some would admit since Coffey has that Norris but Vladdy was big in a cup win as well so hard to say for sure. I lean towards Vladdy but not sure I would if images of him being handed the cup in a wheel chair werent in my head either.

I never saw Quackenbush or Goodfellow but the wings have been around for a while so gotta include everyone. Based on what I've read and what they won etc I think they need to be considered. Quackenbush played before the Norris so its possible he has a norris or two if the award exists given that he was a first team all star three times

Vladdie isn't feelings over fact.
Vladdie finished 2nd and 4th in Norris voting. He won a cup and was, at times, our MVP.

Long before Vladdie was hurt, he was a hero in this town.

Perhaps I underrate Coffeey - but I'll always remember his heartless performance against the Devils.

 

[MBH]

I don't see how Kronwall would be above Chelios. Maybe the later years when he was slow as molasses are coloring people's memories of him?

Cheli played 10 seasons with the Wings, which is longer than his time with Montreal or Chicago. He was a Norris runner up in 2002 behind Lidstrom. That's rarified are Kronwall never breathed.

'
That's a good argument.
Tenure. Check.
Norris voting. Check.
Cups. Check.

But Chelly came here at 37 years old.
His Norris-worthy campaign was out of this world. But he was 40-41.

And after that campaign, he totally fell off the map.
He really only had those two good years here.

Kronner was underrated.
432 points in 950 games. Almost .5/points game.
Chelios
Chelios 158 points in 578 games.
What's that? A little more than .25/points per game.

And while Kronner's defense was never at Chelio's 02 level, Chelly's was also a liability for a considerable part of his career here.

So I don't mind putting Kronwall ahead of Chelios.

 

[kook10]

'
That's a good argument.
Tenure. Check.
Norris voting. Check.
Cups. Check.

But Chelly came here at 37 years old.
His Norris-worthy campaign was out of this world. But he was 40-41.

And after that campaign, he totally fell off the map.
He really only had those two good years here.

Kronner was underrated.
432 points in 950 games. Almost .5/points game.
Chelios
Chelios 158 points in 578 games.
What's that? A little more than .25/points per game.

And while Kronner's defense was never at Chelio's 02 level, Chelly's was also a liability for a considerable part of his career here.

So I don't mind putting Kronwall ahead of Chelios.

liability?

Kronner = -5 career (minus player for 7/15 seasons)
ATOI 21:42

(for Wings only)
Chelly = +158 (never a minus season even when paired with KFQ)
ATOI 21:03

I think we might have forgotten how good we had it.

 

[newfy]

Vladdie isn't feelings over fact.
Vladdie finished 2nd and 4th in Norris voting. He won a cup and was, at times, our MVP.

Long before Vladdie was hurt, he was a hero in this town.

Perhaps I underrate Coffeey - but I'll always remember his heartless performance against the Devils.

I really dont think Vlad was ever the wings MVP though. He was a great player and yeah had a couple high norris finishes but saying he was ever the wings MVP is revisionist history I think

 

[MBH]

liability?

Kronner = -5 career (minus player for 7/15 seasons)
ATOI 21:42

(for Wings only)
Chelly = +158 (never a minus season even when paired with KFQ)
ATOI 21:03

I think we might have forgotten how good we had it.

Dude, Chelios was here when we still had Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan.
When Datsyuk and Z were in their prime. Etc. etc. etc.

How many "good seasons" did Chelios have in Detroit?
I think the answer is 2.

 

[MBH]

I really dont think Vlad was ever the wings MVP though. He was a great player and yeah had a couple high norris finishes but saying he was ever the wings MVP is revisionist history I think

Were you around then Newfy?
Not being a dick, just wondering.

In 1996, the year Vladdie should have won the Norris, we went 10-15-25 at ES and he was +60.
He did that while playing hard-nosed defense on a team that really needed it.
And he killed penalties and played a lot of the defensive matchups.
He finished 4th in Norris voting and 20th in Hart voting, and should have won the Norris and been top 5 or top 10 in Hart voting.

I've never seen a better all-around defenseman in the winged wheel than Konstantinov in 95-96.

 

[newfy]

Were you around then Newfy?
Not being a dick, just wondering.

In 1996, the year Vladdie should have won the Norris, we went 10-15-25 at ES and he was +60.
He did that while playing hard-nosed defense on a team that really needed it.
And he killed penalties and played a lot of the defensive matchups.
He finished 4th in Norris voting and 20th in Hart voting, and should have won the Norris and been top 5 or top 10 in Hart voting.

I've never seen a better all-around defenseman in the winged wheel than Konstantinov in 95-96.

Sure was and thats exactly what I mean by romanticising him. Chelios who played equally as hard and is one of the best shut down guys in his prime ever, more than doubled Vladdy's production that year but youre going to sit here and sya that he shoud've won. The only thing Chelios didnt do better back then was hit but he wasnt a slouch there either. Vladdy is one of my favourite players to ever play for the wings but what youre saying is similar to Lidstrom and Yzerman. Yzerman is by far my favourite wing but I can still admit that Lidstrom was a better hockey player.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Dude, Chelios was here when we still had Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan.
When Datsyuk and Z were in their prime. Etc. etc. etc.

How many "good seasons" did Chelios have in Detroit?
I think the answer is 2.

I think you're underselling Chelios's tenure here.

I can see the argument between him and Kronwall being higher peak versus overall tenure with the Wings, but Cheli played over 20+ minutes a night for his first 5 seasons with the Wings. He was usually behind only Lidstrom in TOI for Dmen those seasons.

It wasn't until post-lockout (the first one) that his lack of speed reduced his role because the game got so much faster. But even then he remained one of the Wings top PK dmen and was still playing 18+ minutes a night.

He remained a plus player until he retired in spite of being crazy slow. He wasn't a defensive liability except near the very end as a 47 year old.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Top 25 max.

 

[MBH]

Sure was and thats exactly what I mean by romanticising him. Chelios who played equally as hard and is one of the best shut down guys in his prime ever, more than doubled Vladdy's production that year but youre going to sit here and sya that he shoud've won. The only thing Chelios didnt do better back then was hit but he wasnt a slouch there either. Vladdy is one of my favourite players to ever play for the wings but what youre saying is similar to Lidstrom and Yzerman. Yzerman is by far my favourite wing but I can still admit that Lidstrom was a better hockey player.

Take away the PP points - Vladdie didn't play much PP because Lidstrom and Coffey did.
7-28-35 +25
vs
10-15=25 +60

Vladdie at 28 was far superior to Chelios at 37 or whatever he was.

Vladdy's +60 was TWICE as good as the next guy, Ray Bourque.

Nobody has matched it 23 years.
In 33 years of hockey, nobody has matched it.

I know fancy stats guys love to shit on plus minus (even though CF% is just a plus/minus of shot attempts).

But Konstantinov's +60 was a remarkable number and showed how he tilted the ice for the Red Wings.

So I'll take Vladdie's 1996 over Chelios' 96.

 

[MBH]

I think you're underselling Chelios's tenure here.

I can see the argument between him and Kronwall being higher peak versus overall tenure with the Wings, but Cheli played over 20+ minutes a night for his first 5 seasons with the Wings. He was usually behind only Lidstrom in TOI for Dmen those seasons.

It wasn't until post-lockout (the first one) that his lack of speed reduced his role because the game got so much faster. But even then he remained one of the Wings top PK dmen and was still playing 18+ minutes a night.

He remained a plus player until he retired in spite of being crazy slow. He wasn't a defensive liability except near the very end as a 47 year old.

I was a Chris Chelios fan from his rookie year. I've met him several times and he's a great guy.
But Chelios was nowhere near the player he'd been earlier in his career by the time he got to Detroit,
His 01-02 season was the pinnacle in Detroit and he went downhill substantially after that.

 

[Mlotek]

liability?

Kronner = -5 career (minus player for 7/15 seasons)
ATOI 21:42

(for Wings only)
Chelly = +158 (never a minus season even when paired with KFQ)
ATOI 21:03

I think we might have forgotten how good we had it.

+/- is a stupid stat.

A 4th liner on the best team will often have a much better +/- than a the best forward on a bottom feeder.

For example Dylan Larkin was -6 this past season.
Adam Erne was +10 and last in minutes among full-time Lightning forwards.

By your logic, Erne is MUCH MUCH better than Larkin.

 

[kook10]

+/- is a stupid stat.

A 4th liner on the best team will often have a much better +/- than a the best forward on a bottom feeder.

For example Dylan Larkin was -6 this past season.
Adam Erne was +10 and last in minutes among full-time Lightning forwards.

By your logic, Erne is MUCH MUCH better than Larkin.

Well that is quite a stretch. Don't pull a muscle!

My simple point was that Cheli was never a liability as claimed.

Sure he slowed down drastically in his later years, but he was still smarter and better defensively than Kronner.