Post-Game Talk: Rangers in Ottawa, Sunday 3:00 pm on TSN

[BonkTastic]

While I agree deciding who is a good leader from outside the room is almost impossible, my experience has been people are willing to follow those that have the experience and skill to make a difference.

In my sporting experience, people are generally willing to follow natural leaders (charismatic communicators, etc...) and players who play every game as though it were their last.

Of course, anecdotal evidence is largely suspect, but that's mine.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Cameron talked about 'emptying the tank' for the team when it came to Boro, that if everyone played as hard as Boro, no matter their skillset, it'd help the team win.

He's completely right about that statement.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Cameron talked about 'emptying the tank' for the team when it came to Boro, that if everyone played as hard as Boro, no matter their skillset, it'd help the team win.

It could be also argued that if Boro had more skill it would be bigger help to the team.

While hard work is definitely a requirement, I think it is too easy to suggest after a loss the players just didn't work hard enough.

Fact is players play injured, go through slumps and just can't play at their best for 82 games. IMO none of these are an indication they aren't playing hard.

Cameron says the grinding game is how teams must play to win in the NHL at this time in the season.

Yet of the 5 teams ahead of the Senators in the division at this point, not sure any of the are playing a grinding style.

Reality is skill wins in the NHL, it is why Karlsson is averaging 28:48 TOI/G and Chicago is a contender every year.

The biggest weakness with this team is consistency and defensive play, not a lack of work ethic or grinding.

Part of the defensive problems are related to the lack of skill on the D.

 

[Micklebot]

It could be also argued that if Boro had more skill it would be bigger help to the team.

While hard work is definitely a requirement, I think it is too easy to suggest after a loss the players just didn't work hard enough.

Fact is players play injured, go through slumps and just can't play at their best for 82 games. IMO none of these are an indication they aren't playing hard.

Cameron says the grinding game is how teams must play to win in the NHL at this time in the season.

Yet of the 5 teams ahead of the Senators in the division at this point, not sure any of the are playing a grinding style.

Reality is skill wins in the NHL, its is why Karlsson is averaging 28:48 TOI/G and Chicago is a contender every year.

The biggest weakness with this team is consistency and defensive play, not a lack of work ethic or grinding.

Part of the defensive problems are related to the lack of skill on the D.

Well, Cameron can't control how much skill his team has, but he can try and get them working harder on a more consistant basis.

I mean, the coach isn't going to go out and talk about how his players need to be more skilled, that would accomplish nothing. But when you look at teams like LA, and Was, they win by having skilled players that are relentlessly hounding the puck; that's what Cameron is after imo.

The thing is, we don't have enough skill to win just on skill, or enough grit to win on grit alone, so we have to do both.

So how do you motivate your skilled guys to do that? As a coach, you control icetime, so, you give the guys who are exibiting the desired behaviour the icetime.

Now, imo he should be playing our younger skilled guys a bit more (Prince), as they won't learn if they don't play. Let the kids make mistakes, because you can't correct the behaviour if you don't give them a chance to make those mistakes.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

In my sporting experience, people are generally willing to follow natural leaders (charismatic communicators, etc...) and players who play every game as though it were their last.

Of course, anecdotal evidence is largely suspect, but that's mine.

Lots of players in the NHL toiling away on the 4th line or on the bottom pairing play each game like it could be their last, simply because if they don't it well could be their last.

However are these players wearing letters in disproportionate numbers or are the skilled players?

While players may appreciate Boro's contribution and determination, I doubt the skilled players look to him for leadership, but that is JMO.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Well, Cameron can't control how much skill his team has, but he can try and get them working harder on a more consistant basis.

I mean, the coach isn't going to go out and talk about how his players need to be more skilled, that would accomplish nothing. But when you look at teams like LA, and Was, they win by having skilled players that are relentlessly hounding the puck; that's what Cameron is after imo.

The thing is, we don't have enough skill to win just on skill, or enough grit to win on grit alone, so we have to do both.

So how do you motivate your skilled guys to do that? As a coach, you control icetime, so, you give the guys who are exibiting the desired behaviour the icetime.

Now, imo he should be playing our younger skilled guys a bit more (Prince), as they won't learn if they don't play. Let the kids make mistakes, because you can't correct the behaviour if you don't give them a chance to make those mistakes.

Fair enough, but if you want the most from your players, communicate and accept feedback, and install a system that is complementary to the talent, not force a square peg in a round hole.

Treat players with respect and show appreciation for their contribution in the roles they are assigned.

Then above all else show the players no one is above the team, like Trotz with OV and Boudreau with Getzlaf.

This isn't how Cameron has managed his players, Hoffman, Smith, Prince, Ryan, Stone have been pushed down the lineup or benched, while other player like Wiercoich, Neil, Boro, and EK have committed the same mistakes or worse without any fallout.

This style of coaching generally fails in the end.

 

[Tragedy]

Uhm, why would we complain about Boro's icetime? It's a direct reflection of him being one of our primary penalty killers, and a lack of any quality LD with Methot hurt. If it wasn't Boro getting those mins, it would have been Wiercioch or Cowen, and you'd still complain about it... Only Wideman has averaged less icetime per game than Boro, but Cameron loves those intagibles so much, right?

You're making my exact point. I wasn't trying to make it seem like Boro is the worst player on the team and should never play, my point is our depth players are playing far more than they should ever have to and are playing in bigger roles than they should be. Xspirit was saying we should be pointing our fingers at the star players over depth players, all I was saying is with the way things are shaking out through injuries is that these players are playing in "star" roles that they aren't equipped for.

 

[BonkTastic]

However are these players wearing letters in disproportionate numbers or are the skilled players?

Personally, I think higher skill players these days get letters a disproportionate amount of the time as an ego-stroke / aka: as part of a team's attempt to retain a player long term.

That's JMO, though. From what I understand, there are a lot of guys who carry large leadership roles on teams who don't get letters, or are OK with not having a letter in favor of a more skilled guy because it keeps the skill guy happy and they know that letters don't really mean a whole lot when looking at the larger picture.

 

[Scrub*]

Phillips would wear an A
Macarthur would wear an A
Michalek would wear an A

We're getting into our 4th string assistant captains, and with the team struggling it makes sense to go with Boro, alot of young guys on the team. Of course, the other option is to give Ryan an A . he seems to be leading a bit more this year, than last. But maybe it's better to have him just worry about his game, and think about an A for him next year.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Its still pretty farfetched that Ryan doesn't get a letter. Even without being in the room its plenty obvious how the guy is a leader on and off the ice.

I don't really care all that much, but I still don't agree with the decision.

 

[Sensinitis]

Neil probably won't be on the team next season.

If Ryan keeps up his production, I bet he'll have an A by then.

 

[Blarginator]

Personally, I think higher skill players these days get letters a disproportionate amount of the time as an ego-stroke / aka: as part of a team's attempt to retain a player long term.

That's JMO, though. From what I understand, there are a lot of guys who carry large leadership roles on teams who don't get letters, or are OK with not having a letter in favor of a more skilled guy because it keeps the skill guy happy and they know that letters don't really mean a whole lot when looking at the larger picture.

The same could be said about Boro though. The team gave him a letter for a game or two to reward him for is hard work. That doesn't mean that he is the best option to wear that letter.

 

[Xspyrit]

This is one reason why Corsi isn't widely accepted by NHL coaches as a standard for measuring player performance (Boro's comment about Corsi and the coaches support of his play as Exhibit A).

The Senators defensive system isn't designed to keep the shot total low, it is designed to limit the number of high quality scoring chances.

This approach works quite well, but does have a propensity for an increase in coverage breakdowns due to defenders becoming too static in the umbrella and can't respond to quick puck movement an uncontested perimeter allows.

Exactly, that is the plan. However a plan is not always as easy to execute as it is easy to determine. They are somewhat successful in % ratio of High Danger Scoring Chances Against (23th) vs Shots Against (30th) but still, 23th in HDSCA is not good enough. Sure, they can score a lot when healthy, but you also need to be a good defensive team to move into the select group of Elite teams.

The defensive scheme that we try to be successful with doesn't work for all players too. Exemple, it doesn't suit Karlsson at all, so when he is paired with Boro that needs to play that style, there's a problem. Methot is an ideal partner for Karlsson because he is able to play differently with more mobility. Same problem for Wideman and oddly Cowen (lol because he thinks he is an offensive D-man maybe)

He's completely right about that statement.

And if they play with the same work ethic and sense of urgency, they will easily be a playoffs team...

Well, Cameron can't control how much skill his team has, but he can try and get them working harder on a more consistant basis.

I mean, the coach isn't going to go out and talk about how his players need to be more skilled, that would accomplish nothing. But when you look at teams like LA, and Was, they win by having skilled players that are relentlessly hounding the puck; that's what Cameron is after imo.

Yes, it's cool when Chris Neil wins a puck battle but it doesn't accomplish as much as when Kyle Turris does... because skilled forwards are the ones that will end up scoring more. Our top-6 is too skilled not strong enough, and for the bottom-6 (because of injuries), it's probably the opposite.

We need MacArthur, Michalek and maybe even another forward who is strong on the puck (ideally a big center to upgrade over Turris). I know Thornton is older, but Thornton-Zibanejad-Paul is the kind of Center line we need. Or maybe Ryan Getzlaf?

Turris + Prince + 1st for Getzlaf

Would you do it?

You're making my exact point. I wasn't trying to make it seem like Boro is the worst player on the team and should never play, my point is our depth players are playing far more than they should ever have to and are playing in bigger roles than they should be. Xspirit was saying we should be pointing our fingers at the star players over depth players, all I was saying is with the way things are shaking out through injuries is that these players are playing in "star" roles that they aren't equipped for.

And you are right about this. It should be obvious to everyone... which is also why I don't understand why people crap that much on Boro and Smith for example. They are played above their comfort zone because of circumstances.

 

[BonkTastic]

The same could be said about Boro though. The team gave him a letter for a game or two to reward him for is hard work. That doesn't mean that he is the best option to wear that letter.

Sure.

A temporary letter due to injuries is basically a token gesture. I still don't see what the big deal is.

 

[maclean]

He was referring to Boro being on the top pairing in this post, not the A.

1-0 with leader Boro at the helm. All I have to say is BUCKLE UP.

FINALLY someone to pick up the reins left slack by the premature departure of Old Man Legs

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

FINALLY someone to pick up the reins left slack by the premature departure of Old Man Legs

Um,I believe you mean Matt Kassian.

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

Its still pretty farfetched that Ryan doesn't get a letter. Even without being in the room its plenty obvious how the guy is a leader on and off the ice.

I don't really care all that much, but I still don't agree with the decision.

Ryan and Turris would be my picks for the As permanently.

Letters aside, I'm very impressed with his leadership this year, it seems like when we need a big goal he's often in the mix to deliver it. He's playing great two way hockey and still on pace for 70+ points. He's looking like the player we were hoping for when they made the trade.

On a side note I think his new nickname should be Bringer of Puppies

 

[Sens Rule]

While I agree deciding who is a good leader from outside the room is almost impossible, my experience has been people are willing to follow those that have the experience and skill to make a difference.

IMO EK throwing huge open ice hits and Ryan back checking like his life depended on it had more effect on the team than all the hitting Boro or Neil have done all season.

People follow people that do things that are out of their comfort level for the good of the team. They also have a tendency to follow the people that can help them to be winners, not just the most vocal in the room or with the media.

IMO Boro being handed the 'A' is all about Cameron's believe grinding wins games in the NHL, not skill.

Ryan does this regardless. He plays hard. He is Ryan and plays to his abilities. We can't ask Ryan not to be Ryan. Turris and Stone play hard every single moment of every single shift. No matter what. Playing through injuries? They do that. A lot. That is why they sometimes are not as goid as they could be at max health.

What is the message then to the rest of the crew. Ryan and Stone compete regardless. Pageau, Smith do not need motivation. They are guts players. Playing well. Balls out.

So what is the message of giving Boro the extra A? Telling everyone else that you play like a ******* with Icy Hot on your testicles you might get Boro respect? Good message. In my opinion.

I don't care what anyone says. Neil has been awesome this year. Every game. Doing what he should do. So has Boro. Neil has the A. Boro earned it with massive injuries.

You want mad respect like a middle aged, middle vet gets... Like Boro does? Play like it is the end of the frickin' world. Die for the logo on your chest. I hate to bring up stupid, sick macho crap. Boro was injured in the eye. His eyeball was screwed up and he did not miss a shift. Talking about it the day after... He minimizes the blood and bleeding in the eyeball... As he did not miss a shift or practice, or the next game.

That is sick, stupid old school sh.it. But it is why Boro got the A. Why he deserved the A. Why every single guy on the team knows that Boro would go through a wall to win. As most the roster, the callups know they are more talented, more skilled and better then Boro.

They don't play like him. Only some of them play like they want it like Boro.

Boro as an A with huge injuries to a bunch of vets is the EXACT message to send to the players.

If more skilled and talented players think WWBD it is like bumper stickers saying WWJD. What would Jesus do. What would Boro do? Take a puck
In the face and fight for one extra inch on the ice.


Wiercioch and Cowen still think they are "special".

That is what Puempel and Zibanejad and mcCormick and Prince need to learn and Wiercioch and Cowen and Ceci and Wideman as forwards should do. Play like it is the 7th game of a series for your life. In every game. Every shift. Every moment.

Some players here need that message. And if watching Stone and Turris and Pageau play is nir enough. Watch the least talented but highest committment player get an A and get great assignments with injury.

 

[HonestSenator]

Phillips would wear an A
Macarthur would wear an A
Michalek would wear an A

We're getting into our 4th string assistant captains, and with the team struggling it makes sense to go with Boro, alot of young guys on the team. Of course, the other option is to give Ryan an A . he seems to be leading a bit more this year, than last. But maybe it's better to have him just worry about his game, and think about an A for him next year.

then Cowen should wear the C (or maybe C-)
...see what I did there!

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Yeah I don't think we have many players that don't compete. Boros got very strong work ethic. But it's not head and shoulders above everyone else. Very little pressure to work hard when your purpose is to literally slam a puck of the boards and put and hit things. Turris stone Ryan work their tails off. Except they're responsible for wins and losses. Boro isn't. He's not the difference between winnin and losing. His responsibilities are very tiny compared to the big guns.

 

[Sens Rule]

then Cowen should wear the C (or maybe C-)
...see what I did there!

Who competes like Boro? Chara.

What is the difference between current Cowen and Current Chara?

A lot if it is wisdom and IQ... But maybe more of it is that Chara is relentless and committed. Every shift. Every play. And he knows his abilities. And the skill he has lost. Chara is a lot like Boro. Wiercioch and Cowen think they are "special". Chara is still good because he recognizes his growing weaknesses and fills them up.

 

[Sens Rule]

Yeah I don't think we have many players that don't compete. Boros got very strong work ethic. But it's not head and shoulders above everyone else. Very little pressure to work hard when your purpose is to literally slam a puck of the boards and put and hit things. Turris stone Ryan work their tails off. Except they're responsible for wins and losses. Boro isn't. He's not the difference between winnin and losing. His responsibilities are very tiny compared to the big guns.

Yeah except when he is paired with Karlsson and plays 20 minutes... Oh and we win in a shutout....

 

[Alex1234]

I think the sophomore year of Stone has a bigger effect then anticipated


I would choose 3 Hoffman vs 3 Boro anytime on my 3v3 team

 

[stempniaksen]

Yeah I don't think we have many players that don't compete. Boros got very strong work ethic. But it's not head and shoulders above everyone else. Very little pressure to work hard when your purpose is to literally slam a puck of the boards and put and hit things. Turris stone Ryan work their tails off. Except they're responsible for wins and losses. Boro isn't. He's not the difference between winnin and losing. His responsibilities are very tiny compared to the big guns.

I guarantee you the organization feels very differently about that. The guy won the "hardest working player" at dev camp two years in a row (only player to do that) and then got a "long-term" (at least by the standards of depth players) one-way contract when he was barely proven at the NHL level, all because management views him as one of the hardest workers to come through the organization in years (Honestly, I want to say ever, but that might be hyperbole).

There's a history of Boro being given things (one-way deal, lon-ish term, money up front, top-pair duty, ect) and it sure as heck isn't because he's one of the more talented players.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Cameron talked about 'emptying the tank' for the team when it came to Boro, that if everyone played as hard as Boro, no matter their skillset, it'd help the team win.

I'll buy that. He is a heart and soul guy. Fill in "A" .. no issue