Post-Game Talk: Rangers 5 Pens 2

[KIRK]

**** me. I just read that Malkin has had 13 different wingers this year. That's bananas.

Perron man, that cat hates to lose. Crosby used to be like that and maybe Perron's attitude is waking up that side of Crosby again. I know he has felt a ton of pressure lately, and maybe lost some of that passion for the game.

You can't force other guys to play hard, but facing adversity weeds out the passengers. The resilant guys will step up. The passengers can be all back of the bus.

Better to have this happening now, than the playoffs, like we have seen again and again.

Always better to do your weeding early.

A coach like Therrien wouldn't just have sent those guys to the back of the bus. He'd have run them off. Recchi and LeClair. The air of entitlement with which they carried themselves. The way Recchi would drown out Sid's voice.

A guy like Perron. He'd be there not just being resilient. He'd be poking and prodding Sid, in case he just wanted to do his leading on the ice.

We used to have an organization and coaching staff that saw this as Sid's and Geno's team and not just on the ice. It's why I keep citing the Craig Adams thing. How would Therrien have handled that? You know. He'd have said 'I don't ******* care who you think you are; this is Sid's team, this is Geno's team, and you're a scratch until we get rid of you'. And, then he'd push forward the guys who pushed Sid and Geno whenever they'd be too quiet.

As much as I hate how OTHER TEAMS piss on them, I hate how this organization has pissed on them-- both in terms of what they've had on the ice and how they've been supported off it-- 100X more.

People are afraid, so they lash out and say stupid **** and give up on them.

Just how it goes.

It's just hockey though. Nothing to be afraid of.

I woke at 3AM local time to watch that debacle on Sunday. That's how much I love both the logo and watching Sid and Geno play. I'll hope for the best always, but I see how this looks. The Pens can rent a L2 LW and a defenseman, and use trickle down to address the bottom six, and it will be adequate. But, adversity will come, and I see a mix of voices in the lockerroom that, like the last 5 years, is every bit as bad as the mix of personnel on defense.

 

[cassius]

We're in 2015 and Mark Arcobello started on the same line as Malkin - that's a thing.

Reminds me of when Gibbons played on Sid's wing to start game 7 ECQF.. yikes. You just know it's not going to end well.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

We're in 2015 and Mark Arcobello started on the same line as Malkin - that's a thing.

Reminds me of when Gibbons played on Sid's wing to start game 7 ECQF.. yikes. You just know it's not going to end well.

It's a meaningless game in January, not Game 7, 3 or 1 of any playoff game at all. When this team is completely healthy Arcobello will not be on Malkin's wing.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I'm saying whether they coast and face adversity later or face adversity now and start winning more as guys get healthy and maybe we add a deadline rental or two to the mix (with whatever meager cap space we have), the mix in terms of the team and voices is insufficient to allow them to overcome said adversity.

New voices can be heard but not in the way you want. When JR changed things, what did he really do: Neal was the big trade, and in terms of the voices and their roles in the room, it was the EASY thing to do. He added some people with good voices, sure. But, guys like Kunitz still own that room. Guys like Adams are allowed and even encouraged to feel as if they're every bit as important as Sid and Geno (and we know the evidence of that). And, then you have Sid and Geno. They're naturally inclined not to be vocal, and the way this room is constructed just reinforces that.

I posted this in another thread: Some people have talked about not wanting an Evander Kane because he's arrogant and immature. Maybe he is. And, maybe on some teams, that would be a bad thing. But, on this team, I'd love nothing more than a couple of guys who have talent, a bit of cockiness, and are skating reminders that Sid and Geno are THEIR guys. Where Sid and Geno lead, THEY will follow.

For as good as Geno played in 2012 and as good as he's playing this year, I prefer the Geno who played with Malone in 2008 or Talbot in 2009. That Geno played with BALLS. I wish there was a better way to describe it, but he played like a guy who knew that he had guys who wouldn't just talk the talk . . . they'd follow him to the gates of hell and have his back when Satan showed his face. Sid used to play like that once too.

You know, the mix in terms of personnel is off and this team does need to prioritize building around Sid and Geno, even if it means having a lesser 3C, but I think the bigger issue is that it needs an exorcism of the room. The Perron's and the Downie's of this team would've been the Armstrong's and the Talbot's of 7-8 years ago EXCEPT you've got a management team AND coaching staff that lets the tenured vets drown out their voices.

IMO, for as much as we fault Therrien for a lot, that's one thing I always appreciated him getting: This was supposed to be Sid's and Geno's team. The guys around them, yeah, they were going to be talkers, but they were going to be talkers who always knew and acted like guys who knew this was Sid's and Geno's team. Moore got uppity about his role. Same with LeClair and Recchi. THEY were expendable. Even if the Pens got nothing in return, the culture was positively reinforced . . . addition if only by subtraction.

It's why I'm saying 'buy' and 'sell'. Exorcise the room of the faux veteran leaders. Bring in more voices like Perron and Downie if you want, because guys like that know this is Sid's and Geno's team. Get rid of the voices that, by intent or no, are crowding out Sid and Geno. Give me voices that lead but also set the table for and encourage Sid and Geno to lead. As I said, they are naturally inclined to be quiet, but man did guys like Malone, Armstrong, and Talbot ever make sure they were never TOO quiet.

Yeah, I'm ******* tired of watching this team get pissed on. And, buying and selling may mean an early exit that may or may not happen anyway if we stay the course, yet again. Personally, I think it's going to keep happening until the mix of voices in the lockerroom are addressed, and you have to buy and sell to make that happen.

Good post. I've been suspecting that there are a couple of bad influences in the room and every time I think about it Kunitz and Adams are tops on the list. Who knows. Either way, I feel like we need to purge more of the old guard. The fewer players we have who have been poisoned by Bylsma hockey and that mentality, the easier it will be to turn the page.

 

[ColePens]

You can blame Shero for not getting great wingers, but I hate when people blame Gibbons for being put on that line. He outperformed the crappy players that were there. What else was he supposed to do? Decline it?

 

[Til the End of Time]

The catch involved with saying 'adversity is good' is that there needs to be something that leads you to believe the team facing the adversity is equipped to do so.

What happened with the Pens going onto the cup win, they faced all kinds of it over the preceding few years. Remember Sid going down in 2008. Then falling out of the playoff hunt. I mean, that team faced it, conquered it, and didn't fear it.

It's why you don't sweat a bad Hawks loss or where the Kings are in the standings in January as a fan of one of those teams.

The Pens? Sorry, I don't see it. You've got the same rotten six of voices, far too many tenured vets who are allowed and even encouraged to think they're every bit as important as Sid and Geno (which IMO just reinforces Sid's and Geno's natural inclinations to keep quiet and do their leading on the ice).

And, then there's the minor issue where the team isn't built around Sid and Geno (i.e., prioritizing the difference between what they and their peers can do) and the balanced team actually has a meh mix in the bottom six (when all are healthy) and a horrid mix on defense.

Jiggy, I keep going back to it. The Pens need to be buyers and sellers at the deadline.

Give away Adams for the sake of the room. Make Kunitz available, even if part of the return is cap space, because on this team he SHOULD be a 3rd liner (and 3.75M third liners are luxuries, not needs). Martin, if the return is a first or better in terms of value, should be available. Ehrhoff, if he wants out, too. And, yes, Sutter. He's a middling 3C who doesn't produce and is going to want to be paid more than a team with bigger priorities should be paying (not saying 'give him away', just saying if, as with Martin, the value is there, even if some of the return is future value).

At the same time, look short term rental values if you have spots to fill (only give secondary assets) and put primary assets into play for long term solutions.

As I wrote elsewhere, what I'd be looking to do is to move Kunitz and Martin and maybe then use that space to maybe deal significant futures for a long term and legit top six solution and maybe then rent in a small deal a 'lesser' defenseman who maybe has a little of that jam the Pens defense needs.

Something like that. Buy and sell, because right now, to compete with anyone absent big changes, we need to add a top six winger for Geno, slot Comeau and Kunitz into the bottom six with Sutter, Goc, Downie, and Spaling, then significant change the mix of defense, and finally pray that when the playoff adversity comes this extended core forgets the last five years.

this is a great post and i especially agree with the bolded. this is why i find this team/organization very unlikable and hard to root for (aside from a few players).

they refuse to kill any of the sacred cows. they prioritize a bunch of overrated players over sid and geno.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I'm saying whether they coast and face adversity later or face adversity now and start winning more as guys get healthy and maybe we add a deadline rental or two to the mix (with whatever meager cap space we have), the mix in terms of the team and voices is insufficient to allow them to overcome said adversity.

New voices can be heard but not in the way you want. When JR changed things, what did he really do: Neal was the big trade, and in terms of the voices and their roles in the room, it was the EASY thing to do. He added some people with good voices, sure. But, guys like Kunitz still own that room. Guys like Adams are allowed and even encouraged to feel as if they're every bit as important as Sid and Geno (and we know the evidence of that). And, then you have Sid and Geno. They're naturally inclined not to be vocal, and the way this room is constructed just reinforces that.

I posted this in another thread: Some people have talked about not wanting an Evander Kane because he's arrogant and immature. Maybe he is. And, maybe on some teams, that would be a bad thing. But, on this team, I'd love nothing more than a couple of guys who have talent, a bit of cockiness, and are skating reminders that Sid and Geno are THEIR guys. Where Sid and Geno lead, THEY will follow.

For as good as Geno played in 2012 and as good as he's playing this year, I prefer the Geno who played with Malone in 2008 or Talbot in 2009. That Geno played with BALLS. I wish there was a better way to describe it, but he played like a guy who knew that he had guys who wouldn't just talk the talk . . . they'd follow him to the gates of hell and have his back when Satan showed his face. Sid used to play like that once too.

You know, the mix in terms of personnel is off and this team does need to prioritize building around Sid and Geno, even if it means having a lesser 3C, but I think the bigger issue is that it needs an exorcism of the room. The Perron's and the Downie's of this team would've been the Armstrong's and the Talbot's of 7-8 years ago EXCEPT you've got a management team AND coaching staff that lets the tenured vets drown out their voices.

IMO, for as much as we fault Therrien for a lot, that's one thing I always appreciated him getting: This was supposed to be Sid's and Geno's team. The guys around them, yeah, they were going to be talkers, but they were going to be talkers who always knew and acted like guys who knew this was Sid's and Geno's team. Moore got uppity about his role. Same with LeClair and Recchi. THEY were expendable. Even if the Pens got nothing in return, the culture was positively reinforced . . . addition if only by subtraction.

It's why I'm saying 'buy' and 'sell'. Exorcise the room of the faux veteran leaders. Bring in more voices like Perron and Downie if you want, because guys like that know this is Sid's and Geno's team. Get rid of the voices that, by intent or no, are crowding out Sid and Geno. Give me voices that lead but also set the table for and encourage Sid and Geno to lead. As I said, they are naturally inclined to be quiet, but man did guys like Malone, Armstrong, and Talbot ever make sure they were never TOO quiet.

Yeah, I'm ******* tired of watching this team get pissed on. And, buying and selling may mean an early exit that may or may not happen anyway if we stay the course, yet again. Personally, I think it's going to keep happening until the mix of voices in the lockerroom are addressed, and you have to buy and sell to make that happen.

JR started to remove or not re-sign the worst offenders this offseason, Orpik was a big issue. You can see the change in Letang. Next we need rid of Kunitz, Scuds and Adams, and give the other A to Letang. If JR can manage all that by next year, I'll be pleased and a bit surprised.

Adding guys like Perron and PH is a hell of a start though, and even Spaling is supposed to be a good guy in the room. Add that to bringing in some of the young D men, especially Harrington, and our best players will actually be able to lead the team.

 

[billybudd]

You can blame Shero for not getting great wingers, but I hate when people blame Gibbons for being put on that line. He outperformed the crappy players that were there. What else was he supposed to do? Decline it?

That a 5th stringer on the Jackets did less-brutal job than Beau Bennett and Lee Stempniak is cause to take issue with them (and the GM), not reason to be satisfied with the overall body of work he provided.

Nobody ever said Gibbons didn't do the best he could. "The best he could" just sucked. That he was, nevertheless, the best option--and after Dupuis went down, he clearly was--is a pox on Shero.

 

[cassius]

You can blame Shero for not getting great wingers, but I hate when people blame Gibbons for being put on that line. He outperformed the crappy players that were there. What else was he supposed to do? Decline it?

I'm not trying to pick on Gibbons... just saying, if a guy like Gibbons or Arcobello is in your top-6, don't expect to actually win any important games.

 

[KIRK]

Good post. I've been suspecting that there are a couple of bad influences in the room and every time I think about it Kunitz and Adams are tops on the list. Who knows. Either way, I feel like we need to purge more of the old guard. The fewer players we have who have been poisoned by Bylsma hockey and that mentality, the easier it will be to turn the page.

To reiterate, some of these guys may not even being doing it intentionally. Not Adams, but definitely a 'do as I say not as I do vet' like Kunitz or Scuderi.

JR started to remove or not re-sign the worst offenders this offseason, Orpik was a big issue. You can see the change in Letang. Next we need rid of Kunitz, Scuds and Adams, and give the other A to Letang. If JR can manage all that by next year, I'll be pleased and a bit surprised.

Adding guys like Perron and PH is a hell of a start though, and even Spaling is supposed to be a good guy in the room. Add that to bringing in some of the young D men, especially Harrington, and our best players will actually be able to lead the team.

They couldn't afford to keep Orpik. Only guy they voluntarily moved was Neal, who, in the context of this discussion, was EASY to move. For as much as he's done-- for as much good as he's done-- he didn't make an example of any of the sacred cows, not even Adams. And, as evidenced by how the coach handled the Adams and Malkin stuff, it's the same thing with the coaching staff (as I asked, leave other stuff out of it, what would a coach like Therrien have done about that . . . methinks it wouldn't have been what MJ did and the message his inaction sent).