OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow

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Dread Pirate Roberts

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Nate McLouth was trash. Huntington has proven to be a weak evaluator of MLB talent, but please spare us the bad hot takes.

Jeff Locke, Charlie Morton, and Gorkys Hernandez were trash. Nate McLouth was an average player in Pittsburgh, slightly above average in his first stint. His career took a nosedive after he was traded. Whatever Huntington's other weaknesses are, by far his greatest weakness is trading MLB players for futures.
 

DanielPlainview

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What have they done to deserve a demotion? Better yet, what have Glasnow/Brault done to deserve their spots?

If anything, you call them up and send Glasnow/Brault to the pen and make them earn a spot start here and there. Not the other way around.

The Pirates would be black listed by players and agents alike if they operated with such disregard.

It's the best way they can strengthen the pen unless they somehow manage to trade for some quality arms. Sure you can throw Brault or Glasnow in there but I don't think they'd be as effective.

They wouldn't be blacklisted by anyone. Don't act like Kuhl and Williams have been stellar or something. They've been just ok back end starters. No one would bat an eye.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Jeff Locke, Charlie Morton, and Gorkys Hernandez were trash. Nate McLouth was an average player in Pittsburgh, slightly above average in his first stint. His career took a nosedive after he was traded. Whatever Huntington's other weaknesses are, by far his greatest weakness is trading MLB players for futures.

Nope, Huntington has weaknesses as a GM, but this trade is a total yinzer move to bring up. Both Morton and Locke provided average back end of the rotation innings for the Pirates for multiple years. McLouth was at his very best an average 4th outfielder having a career season. The nature of trading for young players is that it often doesn't work out. Let's not act like McLouth was in high demand on the market.

Huntington's biggest problem is his assessment of already-playing MLB talent. He's managed to make some good additions, but he's swung and missed far too many times.
 
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DanielPlainview

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One move I never understood was not trying to keep Travis Snider. The guy was great off the bench.
 

Cherpak

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It's the best way they can strengthen the pen unless they somehow manage to trade for some quality arms. Sure you can throw Brault or Glasnow in there but I don't think they'd be as effective.

They wouldn't be blacklisted by anyone. Don't act like Kuhl and Williams have been stellar or something. They've been just ok back end starters. No one would bat an eye.

So you think weakening the rotation and strengthening the bullpen is a better idea? For what? Tanking?

Regardless who Kuhl and Williams are won't matter to the MLBPA, players or agents. ANY team treating players that way will be noticed and you can say goodbye to any quality UFA's coming here as a result. Plus how do you think the players on the Pirates would feel about it? They see two of their teammates punished for what? If you don't believe they wouldn't bat an eye, I got bad news for you.

This is a classic "we need to start so and so because they'll be the better Pittsburgh QB" attitude. Besides, what gives you the idea that moving Kuhl and Williams to the pen and giving Glasnow/Brault the spots in the rotation is any better? We all have seen what a train wreck Glasnow is in the majors and Brault in his MLB time hasn't gone more than 4-5 innings. And don't give me any "but in AAA" BS. Glasnow is tearing up that league again and as so many here have stated before, there is a huge gap in talent.

Brault should get a spot start here and there to show if he is actually ready. But his arm, a lefty at that, would be more effective in the BP for now. Rivero is going to wear out since his only help is Watson/Bastardo/Leblanc of which two are going to be gone anyways if Glasnow/Brault are called up.
 

DanielPlainview

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Brault has been pretty dominant in AAA (2.04 ERA), while Kuhl is tossing a 5.26 ERA. So, there certainly is justification for giving Brault a look. And in order to give Brault a chance, Kuhl either has to move to the pen or go to Indy. Personally, I think his 100 mph fastball coming out of the pen would be a great asset, and the move to the pen would not doom him to it for the rest of his career, just this season (unless things go terribly wrong).

Williams is a tougher sell, granted, but everyone knows Glasnow figuring it out would be huge for this team and the future of the franchise (I mean, if he doesn't, the Pirates will have to watch Cole leave with no one to fill his shoes until Keller comes up in 2019 at the earliest - assuming Keller works out). Glasnow's ceiling is so ridiculously high that doing pretty much anything that will help him to figure it out is completely justified. Meanwhile, Williams is probably close to his ceiling as an inconsistent 4.50-4.70 ERA type of guy.

There's no reason to assume this would weaken the rotation. And improving the bullpen seems pretty important when it has cost the team at least 10 games this season.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I agree that Kuhl and Williams can't just be put into the bullpen overnight. For starters, it's not a simple transition, and if you decide to do it, it probably should be a fairly permanent decision, at least until the end of this season.

I will say that I think Kuhl's spot should not be so secure. The uptick in his velocity is great, but he really hasn't shown anything of consistency this season. Left-handed batters are a serious problem for him, as is going beyond the fifth inning, which is disastrous given our bullpen options. He hasn't been terrible for a backend starter, but we could certainly use more. Brault has put together a very good AAA campaign and should be on the cusp of a callup whenever there is an opening.

It is pretty myopic to just dismiss all AAA performance out of hand because Glasnow can strike out a bunch of guys there and struggle in MLB. That doesn't have anything to do with Brault whatsoever. He's just entered an age 25 season and we have barely 30 innings of an MLB sample size from him. Unless Kuhl is stellar on Thursday night, it would be perfectly reasonable to shake things up after the all star break.

I'm not sure if the answer is optioning him back to Indy or putting him into the pen. A lot probably depends on how you evaluate his future prospects. It's a strange situation, since he doesn't quite have the strikeout potential that you'd like to see from someone with such a high velocity. The fastball/slider combination would play pretty well out of the bullpen, and it's a position of organizational weakness. It's not a bad experiment to try while he works on a slider. He can always re-enter the mix for the rotation in spring training next year, and if he's extremely successful out of the pen, he gives you a good option there with a ton of control.

Williams certainly can't just be put into the bullpen right now. I have been more skeptical of his potential than most people, but he's definitely been pitching the best of any pitcher on the team besides Rivero right now, and it's not because of luck either. The biggest thing to consider with him is if the strikeouts continue. He hasn't been able to get them at a huge clip in every start, but that's supplemented well by the fact that he gets a ton of weak contact and a good number of ground balls. Who knows what the future holds for him, but right now he's a starter who you pencil in behind Taillon and Nova (and for now Cole) next year. His emergence is one reason why I'm more bullish on sending Kuhl to the bullpen to see what he does there: you can never have enough viable pitching, but we have some rotation candidates right on the cusp, and Williams was somewhat discounted by a lot of people, myself included. Williams is essentially placing himself in the #4 spot that Kuhl held down heading into this season, except Williams is pitching even better over this stretch than mostly everything we saw from Kuhl.

It's revisable later - if Williams falters, he can return to being a decent bullpen asset, but for now I think the move is Brault as the next in line for a promotion. I'm also of the mindset that I'd like to see Glasnow really turn up the pressure for earning a callup, rather than giving him another chance so soon. I really hope that he was given a directive about walks and throwing his offspeed stuff consistently, and that the Pirates basically don't give him another look until he does so. It's great that the velocity is back and he's stacking up gaudy K numbers, but let's see him go 7 IP with just 6-7 Ks and 0-1 BBs three or four times in a row.
 
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DanielPlainview

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For the record, I'm not advocating doing this now but at the deadline. Things can certainly change over the next 3 weeks.
 

Winger for Hire

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Sell everything not nailed down and figure it out in the off-season. Do a soft reset and hope for the best and have faith in your pipeline.

This season has turned me into grumpy Pirates fan. I dunno how DJ kept his chin up for so long.
 

Cherpak

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Sell everything not nailed down and figure it out in the off-season. Do a soft reset and hope for the best and have faith in your pipeline.

This season has turned me into grumpy Pirates fan. I dunno how DJ kept his chin up for so long.

I have endured the trials/tribulations of this team since their 79 WS. I feel no pain.
 

DJ Spinoza

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For the record, I'm not advocating doing this now but at the deadline. Things can certainly change over the next 3 weeks.

That's a good point, although I still think if Williams keeps it up, he stays in the rotation. But other spots could open via injury or if Cole is traded.

There are tons of reasons to be frustrated with this team. For me the central one is that we are getting all of the disappointment with basically none of the fun payoff that earlier teams used to give. It seems like every single possible time that something bad can happen, it does, and then whatever that bad thing is becomes supplemented by something totally crazy and out of left field that's even worse. Seems like we're on pace for something even more devastating, like Nova continuing to struggle for a few starts after the all star break and then going down with Tommy John or something.

The one thing that could fill me with some enthusiasm is if we were able to pull off something like Cole for Bregman, and get immediate, controllable help with the potential to be dynamic. I don't think it's totally homerish if you look at the other options to say that Huntington holds two of the best deadline cards in Cutch and Cole. As long as he continues at this pace, McCutchen is simply put the best player available: he's a dynamic every day player who is capable of completely taking over for extended stretches. I think a solid return is firmly back on the table, and the big question is whether you can get some teams into a bidding war.

Cole has some concerns around him, but he'd probably be the most sought after pitcher. It sounds like the Tigers are starting to shop Verlander pretty aggressively, and one thing that might actually help us is if the Cubs pony up some of their young talent to get Verlander in the hopes of making a big run. This would put some more pressure to make a big move on the Dodgers, Nationals, Rockies, and maybe others in the AL too. I can't see any of them as a fit for Cole, but the Astros and Yankees have the kind of depth we need.

Personally, I lean towards hoping for two giant blockbuster deals: get a huge infusion of fresh faces in here and hope for the best with the current core. The price on Cole should be very high, but I also don't know if it's too wise to be extremely cautious with him. It'd be a lot easier if we had any reason to have confidence in Glasnow, but it's a much safer bet to spread Cole's value across three or four players than to have him either get worse with his struggles, or injured. And obviously it would be a huge boon to flip him for somebody like Bregman... the value is probably a little tilted, with Bregman being an elite position prospect with 5 years of control, and Cole being an elite pitcher with only 2 years of control. But Cole gives you a wide open window for three shots at a championship, and actually isn't going to cost a ton of money.

Quintana is probably better in some respects--certainly he's already proven in the AL and has more years of control, and maybe you prefer to tap into your system and just have an amazing group for 3-4 years. The advantage I could see in trading Bregman is that you still basically maintain one of the best and deepest systems in baseball.
 

DanielPlainview

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I read a lot of these hypothetical deals and it seems like people anticipate the other GMs being complete rubes.

Quintana isn't going anywhere. He's had a bad year and people will be sending low ball offers.

Cutch will not be a hot property that will command a big return. All he's proven is he's unpredictable. Best to temper those expectations.

Cole's value is in the basement right now. It would be a miracle if they get any good offers for him.

Harrison and Rivero are the only hot stock they have to offer and moving Rivero would be stupid as all hell. If by some miracle they get a decent offer for Harrison they should take it.
 

DJ Spinoza

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You oversimplify to a staggering level. Not really worth saying much more than that.
 

Brandinho

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I've been more impressed by Williams than Kuhl. I definitely wouldn't remove both from the rotation, but Kuhl would be on an incredibly short leash. Kuhl's velocity and ability to generate ground balls could play very well in the bullpen. Not convinced he has the command to start. Williams does. Another bad start from Kuhl and I'd give Brault a spot start. If he pitches well, I give him at least a month's trial to earn the role full time.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Taillon is dealing today, but he's thrown a lot of pitches. Gonna be done after 5 innings in all likelihood. Wonder if middle relief will blow this lead or if they might skate through somehow and lead to something fluky happening with Nicasio or Rivero?
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

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Both Morton and Locke provided average back end of the rotation innings for the Pirates for multiple years. McLouth was at his very best an average 4th outfielder having a career season.
You've got that completely backwards. McLouth provided average to slightly above average production for multiple years. Morton and Locke were trash pitchers who lost the Pirates a ton of winnable games over the years. bWAR has them both as exactly replacement level (as pitchers--they were a bit below as hitters) for their Pirate careers. Replacement level is awful. If you're pitching at replacement level, you're hurting the team.

Huntington's biggest problem is his assessment of already-playing MLB talent. He's managed to make some good additions, but he's swung and missed far too many times.
Are we talking about the same guy? Every MLB pitcher he's brought in has turned to gold, with the exception of Daniel Hudson. A bunch of his position players have been good, too. There have been misses in the free agent market, but that happens to other teams, and other teams give their GM a budget to spend on actual good players. The money Huntington gets to spend in FA only buys reclamation projects, so it's hardly surprising to see trash-level production from some of them. I'll give you that the Daniel Hudson signing was awful, because you can get an actual decent reliever for his contract, but Huntington only gets to give out contracts that size to new players, and for anything except relievers, that's basically no money at all on the UFA market.
 

TNT87

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You've got that completely backwards. McLouth provided average to slightly above average production for multiple years. Morton and Locke were trash pitchers who lost the Pirates a ton of winnable games over the years. bWAR has them both as exactly replacement level (as pitchers--they were a bit below as hitters) for their Pirate careers. Replacement level is awful. If you're pitching at replacement level, you're hurting the team.


Are we talking about the same guy? Every MLB pitcher he's brought in has turned to gold, with the exception of Daniel Hudson. A bunch of his position players have been good, too. There have been misses in the free agent market, but that happens to other teams, and other teams give their GM a budget to spend on actual good players. The money Huntington gets to spend in FA only buys reclamation projects, so it's hardly surprising to see trash-level production from some of them. I'll give you that the Daniel Hudson signing was awful, because you can get an actual decent reliever for his contract, but Huntington only gets to give out contracts that size to new players, and for anything except relievers, that's basically no money at all on the UFA market.

Yeah, Niese and Vogelsong were outstanding last season.:help:
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

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Yeah, Niese and Vogelsong were outstanding last season.:help:

Vogelsong I'll give you, although I was being hyperbolic (Jonathan Sanchez didn't work out either, but an established MLB player signed for $1 million isn't supposed to). Niese goes in the "NH sucks at trading his major league talent for futures" pile. Walker was easily the more established player, and the entire rationale for the trade was that Niese had more years of control.
 

Brandinho

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Vogelsong I'll give you, although I was being hyperbolic (Jonathan Sanchez didn't work out either, but an established MLB player signed for $1 million isn't supposed to). Niese goes in the "NH sucks at trading his major league talent for futures" pile. Walker was easily the more established player, and the entire rationale for the trade was that Niese had more years of control.

Niese was 29 going on 30 when he was acquired. I really don't see how he'd be in the futures pile. If anything, he was a veteran reclamation project, having previously been a solid mid rotation starter.

However, I do agree with your broader point. NH does seem to have a better eye for major league talent than prospects. There will always be exceptions either way, but he generally hasn't done well when he's traded for packages of prospects, particularly position players.
 

DJ Spinoza

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You've got that completely backwards. McLouth provided average to slightly above average production for multiple years. Morton and Locke were trash pitchers who lost the Pirates a ton of winnable games over the years. bWAR has them both as exactly replacement level (as pitchers--they were a bit below as hitters) for their Pirate careers. Replacement level is awful. If you're pitching at replacement level, you're hurting the team.

Are we talking about the same guy? Every MLB pitcher he's brought in has turned to gold, with the exception of Daniel Hudson. A bunch of his position players have been good, too. There have been misses in the free agent market, but that happens to other teams, and other teams give their GM a budget to spend on actual good players. The money Huntington gets to spend in FA only buys reclamation projects, so it's hardly surprising to see trash-level production from some of them. I'll give you that the Daniel Hudson signing was awful, because you can get an actual decent reliever for his contract, but Huntington only gets to give out contracts that size to new players, and for anything except relievers, that's basically no money at all on the UFA market.

Nate McLouth was a replacement level fourth outfielder - let's not be hyperbolic and fabricate information to fit a very strange narrative, which I'll grant you that we're seemingly arguing about after a venting post on your part at general, understandable frustrations with Huntington. I just don't know why people can't seem to let go something like the McLouth trade. It's the epitomy of yinzerism to harp on this. Neither Morton or Locke worked out especially well, but they ended up contributing about the same as McLouth did in his brief flash of productivity, and for stretches were better than that. Pitchers don't often work out. Especially in Morton's case, there were an infinite amount of mitigating factors. It's the nature of pitching in MLB.

Huntington's strength has always been in overall organizational perspectives, rounding out depth, and finding value through being aggressive with new innovations. His assessments of already somewhat capable MLB talent leaves a lot to be desired. I fully grant that his hands are tied by Nutting in free agency, and that MLB free agency is so irrational that it's not really fair to judge him in that respect. His MLB assessment has sometimes been quite solid, as in the case of Joyce, Nicasio, to an extent Jason, Cervelli quite a while ago, etc., but the Niese trade was a complete flop, and we had an infinite revolving door of first basemen for years.

I'll grant fully that there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about NH, and skeptical about the potential returns for Cutch or Cole. Dealing with prospects is also very tenuous. There is a substantial amount of luck involved unless you are trading somebody like Chris Sale, and even then, the White Sox need Moncada to really hit his full potential. I just can't fathom the point of crucifying him for trading a fringe 3rd/4th outfielder from a team going nowhere for two young pitchers. I don't see the neat narrative about Huntington being unable to trade for future talent that you see trying to advance. The Melancon trade is disproof of that in blazing letters. I think he's been a lot more inconsistent with the trades and supplementary moves to the MLB team that he's made, whereas he's been very good at building up the whole organization and committing the team to maximize what is has to work with.


Hopefully Cole is able to follow suit tomorrow and start showcasing for a potential trade. Cutch is certainly not going to slow down. For those wanting to depressingly keep track, if you go back and just give us a series win against the Giants, not a sweep, and game 1 of this series, then we'd already be tied with the Cubs at this point.
 
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