OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Kuhl. Kuhl, Kuhl, Kuhl

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Who were they supposed to send to the minors when Cole was activated? Frazier maybe? Even then, he is a utility guy who can hit off the bench. Bell is a 1b/of on a team overflowing with great 1st basemen and outfielders.

I'd rather have Bell playing every day in AAA then getting the odd sunday start or pinch hitting opportunity in the majors.

 

[Coastal Kev]

All I know is that I felt euphoric watching them during the Cubs series and I felt deflated during the Nats series. Team looked the same way.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

All I know is that I felt euphoric watching them during the Cubs series and I felt deflated during the Nats series. Team looked the same way.

I think it's a huge stretch to attribute that to Bell, especially since he was still on the team for game 1 of the Nats series.

Here's my theory: they lost 2 games against the Nats because the Nats have great starters and the bats had an off series. They have lost a game against the Brewers because Locke and Schugel suck.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I think it's a huge stretch to attribute that to Bell, especially since he was still on the team for game 1 of the Nats series.

Here's my theory: they lost 2 games against the Nats because the Nats have great starters and the bats had an off series. The have lost a game against the Brewers because Locke and Schugel suck.

And that would excellent baseball analysis. But what about the intangibles? How do you measure those? I felt different about the team the morning I woke up to see Hurdle's comments on sending Bell back.

There isn't anything I can offer in the way of data to back my opinion other than my years of experience watching sports. It seemed like Bell provided a spark and management quickly snuffed it out.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Management snuffed it out? Everybody knew Bell was going down after the ASB. There was never any suspense about this matter. Furthermore, if the team goes into a tailspin because a bench player got sent down then they don't have the mental makeup to be a competitive baseball team anyway.

What you are advocating is making the wrong move for both the team and Bell long term because of some vague feeling you have.

 

[clefty]

I think there was a little bit more going on during that 9-2 pre-All Star game run than Josh Bell's four plate appearances from the bench. Bell wasn't even there for half of it.

 

[Dick Sledge]

Bad timing for the all star break really. It ruins a teams great run every season. This time it was us.

 

[Penguins23]

0 for 5 with another 2 Ks. As frustrated as we are, imagine how he feels.

He should of had a single when he hit a line drive up the middle but the shift was right there.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Bad timing for the all star break really. It ruins a teams great run every season. This time it was us.

It was the Pirates last year too. They had the most exciting series of the year in all of baseball before the break when they took 3 of 4, with 2 amazing walk offs, from the Cards. 13 of 16 leading up to the break to cut the Central lead to 2.5 games. Then the break hits and they come back and get swept by the Brew Crew and lose 5 of the their next 6 and come out of that skid 6 back.

The All-Star Break has not been the Pirates friend since they started gunning for the division.

 

[Still Apps]

Who were they supposed to send to the minors when Cole was activated? Frazier maybe? Even then, he is a utility guy who can hit off the bench. Bell is a 1b/of on a team overflowing with great 1st basemen and outfielders.

I'd rather have Bell playing every day in AAA then getting the odd sunday start or pinch hitting opportunity in the majors.

You can't be talking about John Jaso. So who exactly is causing this overflow of greatness at first base which you reference? Seems like we've got David Freese and SRod who are OK but I'd prefer to see Bell be given a chance at the ABs against right hand pitching. At least then you have an upside chance of greatness. You trade Jaso and you can easily make that happen with the roster.

 

[td_ice]

I think Winger nailed it on the head when mentioning that if they don't feel Bell's defense is ready, then they don't want a situation where his poor defense can carry over and effect his offense. If he is not adequate at 1st yet, and apparently he is not, you don't want that zapping his confidence, as it surely would when talking about a rookie.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

That's what it comes down to on my end. 16 errors at 1st last season, already 11 this year...he hasn't taken to 1st well at all. Growing pains were expected, but the hope was that he'd have taken huge strides from year 1 to year 2, and that hasn't happened yet. 11 would have been a tough number to stomach for the entire season, nevermind as his number in mid-July despite barely playing the position the past couple weeks. There's a reason the Pirates are re-introducing him to the outfield, despite him being blocked there.

Again, Hurdle doesn't trust Jaso defensively and Jaso has 3 errors at 1st this season.

 

[td_ice]

And it's not that they aren't aware that his offense can help the team, hence word that they are giving him reps in the OF at Indy, as an insurance policy. They wouldn't do that if they didn't recognize a need. Because GMNH has already stated, long term, there is no room in our OF for Bell.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

You can't be talking about John Jaso. So who exactly is causing this overflow of greatness at first base which you reference? Seems like we've got David Freese and SRod who are OK but I'd prefer to see Bell be given a chance at the ABs against right hand pitching. At least then you have an upside chance of greatness. You trade Jaso and you can easily make that happen with the roster.

Go ahead and find a roster wirh a better threesome of first baseman than Jaso, Freese and Rodriguez. They've all had excellent years. I don't know why you'd rip Jaso. He is the leadoff hitter against righties on a very good offense.

Either way, all 3 can field the position and it is no sure thing that Bell can. What you people seem to be advocating is either:

1.) Ignoring Bell's difficulty defending and make him the starting first baseman anyway. This could easily kill his confidence and make him Pedro 2.0.

2.) Have Bell on the major league roster to start once a week and pinch hit. This would hurt his development when he can get 4 at bats every night in AAA.

Certain people rip the Pirates' management for sending Bell down. Those people did not spend a single second thinking about the implications of keeping him on the major league roster.

 

[bathroomSTAAL]

It's pretty unusual to have 2 players as bad at 1st as Pedro and Bell, right? Like isn't it supposed to be the position most anyone can play without embarrassing themselves?

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's pretty unusual to have 2 players as bad at 1st as Pedro and Bell, right? Like isn't it supposed to be the position most anyone can play without embarrassing themselves?

Even the "easiest" things in the world have some people that can't do it well.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Even the "easiest" things in the world have some people that can't do it well.

Very true.

The issue with Bell is the legwork, which is what tends to cross most players up when transitioning to the position.

The problem with Pedro was that he didn't adapt to any aspect of the position. His legwork was bad, his ability to properly read plays was awful (tried to get to too many balls that weren't his, thus taking the force play out of the equation unless the pitcher ran to 1st at full steam from the second the ball was hit), his glove was lousy, etc. From what I've seen Bell isn't an abject failure at every aspect, but it's all in the legwork. Considering he'd played in the outfield his entire life to this point this is the first time where he's had to be aware of where a base is at all times, and he's struggled with it. That can be fixed, but only with repetition. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Freese's transition to first has been ideal, which is what you'd tend to expect out of a third baseman taking the job, which is what made Pedro's failures so frustrating. There were a couple hiccups early on, but we just played a game where Rodriguez came in late...and played 3rd while Freese stayed at 1st. I won't read too much into that because Hurdle was out of the game, but that's still telling if Jauss didn't see the need to flip them.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Very true.

The issue with Bell is the legwork, which is what tends to cross most players up when transitioning to the position.

The problem with Pedro was that he didn't adapt to any aspect of the position. His legwork was bad, his ability to properly read plays was awful (tried to get to too many balls that weren't his, thus taking the force play out of the equation unless the pitcher ran to 1st at full steam from the second the ball was hit), his glove was lousy, etc. From what I've seen Bell isn't an abject failure at every aspect, but it's all in the legwork. Considering he'd played in the outfield his entire life to this point this is the first time where he's had to be aware of where a base is at all times, and he's struggled with it. That can be fixed, but only with repetition. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Then please explain this to me, I watched baseball years ago and players moved to 1st base easily. Why all of the sudden do modern players struggle with the move?

Makes zero sense. Never once in the 80's through early 2000's did I ever hear about the difficulty in moving to 1st base. Moneyball comes out and now suddenly it's the toughest position ever.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Then please explain this to me, I watched baseball years ago and players moved to 1st base easily. Why all of the sudden do modern players struggle with the move?

Makes zero sense. Never once in the 80's through early 2000's did I ever hear about the difficulty in moving to 1st base. Moneyball comes out and now suddenly it's the toughest position ever.

I don't see how Moneyball comes into play?

I like I said, some people just can't do somethings. And it's not like Bell can't do it. He's only had about a year and a half doing it after playing a totally different position with different emphasis and skills sets to work on. Like Big said, reps are key for Bell. He's never had to pick throw while holding the bag. He's never had to hold a runner then get into position to field. He's never had to judge if he can get to a ball while being able to cover a base. He's never had to worry about hitting a runner in the back while throwing.

Just because he hasn't picked it up like a fish to water, doesn't mean he's toast. It just means he needs to work on it.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Then please explain this to me, I watched baseball years ago and players moved to 1st base easily. Why all of the sudden do modern players struggle with the move?

Makes zero sense. Never once in the 80's through early 2000's did I ever hear about the difficulty in moving to 1st base. Moneyball comes out and now suddenly it's the toughest position ever.

Who is saying it's the toughest position ever? It's probably the easiest, but it's a lot more nuanced than just being the 'easiest' position, you have to be good at a number of things simultaneously.

As for the entire basis of your post...it's faulty, plain and simple. Kevin Young, who came up as a third baseman, committed 23 errors at 1st in 1999 and 17 more the following season. Orlando Merced committed 12 errors at first in just 95 starts as a rookie (played 3B/2B in the low minors). Sid Bream committed 17 errors in two consecutive seasons as a Pirates 1B...as a natural 1B. Between Bream and Young the only Pirate who transitioned from another position to 1B without having severe growing pains was Jeff King, a natural 3B.

Fielding 1B is a completely different beast than fielding RF. Outside of PNC Park I'd actually argue that RF is the easiest position to field.

The line of what is acceptable and what isn't changes.

 

[Still Apps]

Go ahead and find a roster wirh a better threesome of first baseman than Jaso, Freese and Rodriguez. They've all had excellent years. I don't know why you'd rip Jaso. He is the leadoff hitter against righties on a very good offense.

Either way, all 3 can field the position and it is no sure thing that Bell can. What you people seem to be advocating is either:

1.) Ignoring Bell's difficulty defending and make him the starting first baseman anyway. This could easily kill his confidence and make him Pedro 2.0.

2.) Have Bell on the major league roster to start once a week and pinch hit. This would hurt his development when he can get 4 at bats every night in AAA.

Certain people rip the Pirates' management for sending Bell down. Those people did not spend a single second thinking about the implications of keeping him on the major league roster.

John Jaso is a terrible excuse for a first baseman or even a bench guy for that matter. He is limited to playing only one position, 1B, and he doesn't provide exceptional defense there or any power. His career OPS against left-hand pitching is .522 so he's really only effective against right-handers. The one thing he does well is to make a pitcher work deep into counts and to get on base (although his .340 OB percentage this year places him 7th among the 11 Pirate's who have more than 150 plate appearances). Lastly, as a bench guy with less than average foot speed when he does reach base you may be forced to pinch run for him and thus have to burn another player.

If you want to make a case for Freese and SRod being decent (but not great) first base options I'll agree. What I won't agree with is that there is no room for Bell or that his defense is going to throw the Pirates into a Pedro-like defensive vortex at first base. I prefer to think that whatever voodoo Alvarez toted around with him now resides in Baltimore. Bell can be worked in safely and effectively with a little common sense and the usual Hurtle subbing.

In any case the first base position is inherently one where offense trumps defense. Bell has the upside to make a huge difference in a lineup that is in desperate need of a big bat what with their franchise centerfielder not producing anywhere close to an MVP level this year. If he is as fragile psychologically and as horrible defensively as some on here are suggesting then he can be sent back to AAA before he has an emotional breakdown and first base can be left to Freese and SRod. It's a high reward gamble that only requires that the Pirates unload a superfluous John Jaso to ante up.

 

[Steve Durbano]

Interestingly (or not), on this date last year we were 55-40, but still 6 games behind the Cards. The Pirates have had some really sh***y luck with other teams in their division having monster years.

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's weird cosmic payback of some sort for being the NL "Comedy" Central for so long

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Why does Jaso being ineffective against lefties even matter? He literally never plays against a lefty.

He was brought here to play first and be the platoon guy against righties. He's done that and he's done a good job at it as well. After the Pedro debacle last year I can't believe people are not only ripping Jaso, but suggesting that they replace him with a defender who might be nearly as bad as Alvarez.

 

[djt153]

watching cutch is just breaking my heart. ugh.