Question about Kindl and Dekeyser

[Winger98]

Alfredsson is historically really good at playing high/ on the half wall, though. I don't think him being there is a problem. I just like to see the coaches trying new stuff every now and then. I'm not worried because our 1st unit is pretty stacked and will likely only get better as time goes on, but if we still aren't scoring with any regularity on the PP in a few games from now, why not try something different?

I'm definitely up for something different. I'd like to see Alfredsson lower, along that halfwall on his off wing where he can free himself up for a one timer across the ice. The guy has a good shot, but we're asking him to use it as far from the goalie as possible.

Mostly, I'm just tired of having to have a forward at the point for a right handed shot. we have D playing on their off side all game long, I think they can handle it for a two minute powerplay.

I'd out Alfredsson on the top unit. I like the way he fires the puck.

Move Franzen to the second unit. Replace Bert with Tatar. Use Ericsson instead of Quincey.

I'd be fine with that. I just want Alfredsson closer to the net where his shot can do more damage, and for us to put a legit scoring threat on that second unit. What gets me is that we have the guys to do it, but we're so fixated on having that right handed forward on the point.

I can and I will. Difference makers make a difference, if that isn't Kindl, fine. But I think we need to stop pretending some of our young guys are as good as we hoped. Still better than the geezers in the lineup, though.

Something that doesn't get said enough when talking about getting these kids more ice time. Granted, they can't grow their games from the bench/pressbox, but none of them have done a whole lot with the minutes they do get. Tatar and Nyquist have made better cases than the blueliners, though.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I can and I will. Difference makers make a difference, if that isn't Kindl, fine. But I think we need to stop pretending some of our young guys are as good as we hoped. Still better than the geezers in the lineup, though.

You're the one who's pretending here, Heaton.

I don't view Kindl right now as anything more than MAYBE a solid second pairing guy.
I just think we can get more out him and that it's ridiculous to demand more out of him unless he's given the role to get more out of him.

You're constantly pretending as if the situations they are in don't matter.

Well, just take a look at Jonathan Ericsson --
Who went from being the only Red Wings defenseman with a worse Points Per 60 than Kyle Quincey in 2011-12...
To having the highest Points Per 60 on the Red Wings in 2012-13.

Ericsson
Points Per 60
10-11 0.63 -- 3rd and 4th liners
11-12 0.60 -- 3rd and 4th liners
12-13 1.00 - 1st and 2nd liners

Kindl
10-11 .40 -- 3rd and 4th liners
11-12 1.01 -- 3rd and 4th liners
12-13 .097 -- 3rd and 4th liners

Could we expect to see a 66 percent in Kindl's production if he played a full season with the 1st and 2nd liners instead of 3rd and 4th liners?

We've got a GM and coach who are making BRUTAL personnel decisions.

We sign Kyle Quiincey -- a guy who was an offensive player who couldn't score unless it was the powerplay.
We use him like he's Brad Stuart.

We use Brendan Smith like he's a defensive defenseman.

We bury our first round draft pick with guys who can't gain the zone with possession and bench him when we lose, even when the loss had nothing to do with him.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Something that doesn't get said enough when talking about getting these kids more ice time. Granted, they can't grow their games from the bench/pressbox, but none of them have done a whole lot with the minutes they do get. Tatar and Nyquist have made better cases than the blueliners, though.

For all the crabbing about our defense, they went further in the playoffs last year with Kindl-Smith than Lidstrom-Stuart.

We played the kids and it worked. Especially in the playoffs, where the Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner line was our ace in the hole

We've got puck possession personnel. And we our coach lets them play puck possession style, they'll flourish as much as can be expected.

If we play MightyDuckBabcock hockey -- our puckpossession players -- especially the sub 6-footers -- are going to suffer.

It's ridiculous to say we're overvaluing our prospects when we don't give them a chance to show their value.

 

[Henkka]

Do you guys honestly think that these current lines will be used throughout the season?

What happens when Babcock puts Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar first time together?

How do you guys react?

 

[Frk It]

Do you guys honestly think that these current lines will be used throughout the season?

What happens when Babcock puts Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar first time together?

How do you guys react?

If multiple injuries don't happen at once, that will never happen.

How do you know we're going to get to see that line? I remember you thought they were going to play to start the year. But seems like a lot of things would have to happen for them to get a shot.

Pretty sure everyone on this board will be happy though, to answer your question. Why wouldn't we all be?

 

[Chance on Chance]

Do you guys honestly think that these current lines will be used throughout the season?

What happens when Babcock puts Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar first time together?

How do you guys react?

I'll be excited to see what they an do

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If multiple injuries don't happen at once, that will never happen.

How do you know we're going to get to see that line? I remember you thought they were going to play to start the year. But seems like a lot of things would have to happen for them to get a shot.

Pretty sure everyone on this board will be happy though, to answer your question. Why wouldn't we all be?

What other hits have we taken to make this happen? I think from the start to the quarter poll is our softest part of the schedule. So did we sacrifice home ice for a round maybe two just to see this? That is kind of a big deal, waiting around for the less talented vets to fail.

It is really tough to hear your coach say he doesn't want to think about it and your GM is delaying hard decisions, you know since they are both paid handsomely to do just that and are expected to make those calls not sit around hoping or running excuses.

 

[Winger98]

For all the crabbing about our defense, they went further in the playoffs last year with Kindl-Smith than Lidstrom-Stuart.

We played the kids and it worked. Especially in the playoffs, where the Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner line was our ace in the hole

We've got puck possession personnel. And we our coach lets them play puck possession style, they'll flourish as much as can be expected.

If we play MightyDuckBabcock hockey -- our puckpossession players -- especially the sub 6-footers -- are going to suffer.

It's ridiculous to say we're overvaluing our prospects when we don't give them a chance to show their value.

For all of the crabbing about the blueline...because it was a weak point all last season, including the playoffs. And a fair part of that is Kindl and Smith not being the players they were expected to be.

 

[Heaton]

You're the one who's pretending here, Heaton.

I don't view Kindl right now as anything more than MAYBE a solid second pairing guy.
I just think we can get more out him and that it's ridiculous to demand more out of him unless he's given the role to get more out of him.

You're constantly pretending as if the situations they are in don't matter.

Well, just take a look at Jonathan Ericsson --
Who went from being the only Red Wings defenseman with a worse Points Per 60 than Kyle Quincey in 2011-12...
To having the highest Points Per 60 on the Red Wings in 2012-13.

Ericsson
Points Per 60
10-11 0.63 -- 3rd and 4th liners
11-12 0.60 -- 3rd and 4th liners
12-13 1.00 - 1st and 2nd liners

Kindl
10-11 .40 -- 3rd and 4th liners
11-12 1.01 -- 3rd and 4th liners
12-13 .097 -- 3rd and 4th liners

Could we expect to see a 66 percent in Kindl's production if he played a full season with the 1st and 2nd liners instead of 3rd and 4th liners?

We've got a GM and coach who are making BRUTAL personnel decisions.

We sign Kyle Quiincey -- a guy who was an offensive player who couldn't score unless it was the powerplay.
We use him like he's Brad Stuart.

We use Brendan Smith like he's a defensive defenseman.

We bury our first round draft pick with guys who can't gain the zone with possession and bench him when we lose, even when the loss had nothing to do with him.

I'm not ignoring the situations they're in, we went through years of debating if Quincey was good because he was good or because he played with 1st line talent and 1st unit PP. I'm not seeing any difference in argument here. If Kindl was really good offensively, you'd see it more, I highly doubt if a guy like Karlsson or Subban were here playing Kindl's minutes with 2nd and 3rd line guys they wouldn't show more than what Kindl is. Yes, I know, another bad comparison.

 

[Syckle78]

Do you guys honestly think that these current lines will be used throughout the season?

What happens when Babcock puts Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar first time together?

How do you guys react?

When? What are you basing this assumption on that you are wording as if it's a given. Babcock has given zero indication he has any interest in using that line. Why pretend otherwise Ans like we are crazy for assuming his lines will stay bewildering based on his actual track record. I mean its entirely possible we have a two team expansion draft mysteriously pop up in the middle of the season that forces his hand. But I kinda don't see that ..

 

[PullHard]

I'm not ignoring the situations they're in, we went through years of debating if Quincey was good because he was good or because he played with 1st line talent and 1st unit PP. I'm not seeing any difference in argument here. If Kindl was really good offensively, you'd see it more, I highly doubt if a guy like Karlsson or Subban were here playing Kindl's minutes with 2nd and 3rd line guys they wouldn't show more than what Kindl is. Yes, I know, another bad comparison.

I don't think it is about giving Kindl so much chance that he blossoms into a Norris winning calibre defender, that won't happen.

It is more about maximizing the player that we have. He will likely never be more than an average #3 or good #4 dman who can fill in on the top pair for stretches or could be a passable #2 with a Norris level #1 in order to stretch out our talent. (Lidstrom + White, Kronwall + Stuart for example)

The Wings have now invested a 1st rounder, several years, and millions of dollars into his development. Babcock giving him a bit longer of a leash wouldn't kill us at this point, and could maybe increase his confidence and by extension of that, his ability. Not a guarantee, but I don't think we will see Kindl's best if he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to man a #1 PP unit.

But as I mentioned earlier, he is pretty new to the NHL/ this increased responsibility. Giving him as much opportunity as he has gotten so far this year (he and DK on 2nd pair + being the Dman on the #2 PP unit) might be a good starting point for him. We can just see how he does with this for the season and then re-assess next year.

 

[Heaton]

I don't think it is about giving Kindl so much chance that he blossoms into a Norris winning calibre defender, that won't happen.

It is more about maximizing the player that we have. He will likely never be more than an average #3 or good #4 dman who can fill in on the top pair for stretches or could be a passable #2 with a Norris level #1 in order to stretch out our talent. (Lidstrom + White, Kronwall + Stuart for example)

The Wings have now invested a 1st rounder, several years, and millions of dollars into his development. Babcock giving him a bit longer of a leash wouldn't kill us at this point, and could maybe increase his confidence and by extension of that, his ability. Not a guarantee, but I don't think we will see Kindl's best if he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to man a #1 PP unit.

But as I mentioned earlier, he is pretty new to the NHL/ this increased responsibility. Giving him as much opportunity as he has gotten so far this year (he and DK on 2nd pair + being the Dman on the #2 PP unit) might be a good starting point for him. We can just see how he does with this for the season and then re-assess next year.

I agree 100% with this, I don't think Holland or Babcock are maximizing our players talents, I'm just trying to drive the point home that we don't hold some of our players accountable like we do to others. We'll be the first ones to point out how ****** Cleary is, but Tatar or Nyquist or Kindl or Smith? It's not their fault, it's Babcock's or Holland's.

Yes, I know people call them out for their bad play, I'm just saying that excuses are made for them more than other players. Probably because like you said, they weren't given a shot, or a big enough shot. But still, it's not like they're maximizing the time they've gotten.

 

[Syckle78]

I don't think any excuses are made outside of what you would usually hear for a rookie. Its not like people are going out if their way to excuse away anything they do that are negatives. We expect growing pains and rookie mistakes when young guys play. That's the others side of the coin when you are playing guys with upside and potential. You are taking the good with the bad. No reason for people to get up in arms over what is expected.

 

[Chance on Chance]

I agree 100% with this, I don't think Holland or Babcock are maximizing our players talents, I'm just trying to drive the point home that we don't hold some of our players accountable like we do to others. We'll be the first ones to point out how ****** Cleary is, but Tatar or Nyquist or Kindl or Smith? It's not their fault, it's Babcock's or Holland's.

Yes, I know people call them out for their bad play, I'm just saying that excuses are made for them more than other players. Probably because like you said, they weren't given a shot, or a big enough shot. But still, it's not like they're maximizing the time they've gotten.

I can see this point of view but at some point I'd like them to take a risk. Say you start off with Tatar on the first line for3 games and see what happens.

 

[Frk It]

I agree 100% with this, I don't think Holland or Babcock are maximizing our players talents, I'm just trying to drive the point home that we don't hold some of our players accountable like we do to others. We'll be the first ones to point out how ****** Cleary is, but Tatar or Nyquist or Kindl or Smith? It's not their fault, it's Babcock's or Holland's.

Yes, I know people call them out for their bad play, I'm just saying that excuses are made for them more than other players. Probably because like you said, they weren't given a shot, or a big enough shot. But still, it's not like they're maximizing the time they've gotten.

Fair point, I'd say the flip side to this is true too.

People defend's managements decisions not to play these guys too, and often give some pretty lame excuses as to why.

Example:

To start last year Nyquist was left off the roster. I thought he should definitely be on the roster.

To defend Holland/Babcock a pretty decent-sized contingent on this board tried to really push the argument "Well it's not so bad he's not playing with us. He's too small. He's too weak on the puck". "He's not big enough to go up against NHL defenseman".

Fast forward 5 months later. Nyquist is turning Brett Seabrook inside out and scoring meaningful playoff goals. He is the driving force on a 3rd line that creates a ton of chances every night. No one on this board is saying he's "undersized" or "not big enough" at this point in time (May). And let's be honest, it's not like he made considerable gains in either strength or weight from January to May. Not in-season.

So basically it was just all a bunch of crap. People had to try and find a reason to defend these guys for making a really stupid decision, and leaving a really young talented forward off the roster.

Then this year even a few brave souls tried to claim the same thing. "While it's ok Kenny and Mike are leaving him out, he's still too small". Like it even freaking matters. Like guys like him don't have enough skill to overcome a "skinnier" build. Like he's even that freaking small, he is 5'11 and 185 lbs. Same as Stephen Weiss. Same weight as Danny Dekeyser, despite Dekeyser being 6 foot 3. And everyone loves Dekeyser.

I find it all hilarious, to be quite honest. In some people's eyes it's like Holland and Babcock are incapable of making a mistake. There has to be some behind-the-scene reasoning to validate everything. If not, people try to make stuff up.

I think that they both are very good at their jobs, respectively. But these guys make mistakes. And right now they are making big ones.

 

[detredWINgs]

Though he plays a similarly defense-first game, DeKeyser isn't nearly as aggressive or physical as either Seidenberg or Hannan (though one hopes he eventually learns to be).

I disagree. His size, skating and athleticism allow him to be a great checker without the physical aspect. And I'd loathe seeing him give up his already impressive positional game to add a big-hitting physical dimension to his game.

 

[Flowah]

I agree 100% with this, I don't think Holland or Babcock are maximizing our players talents, I'm just trying to drive the point home that we don't hold some of our players accountable like we do to others. We'll be the first ones to point out how ****** Cleary is, but Tatar or Nyquist or Kindl or Smith? It's not their fault, it's Babcock's or Holland's.

Yes, I know people call them out for their bad play, I'm just saying that excuses are made for them more than other players. Probably because like you said, they weren't given a shot, or a big enough shot. But still, it's not like they're maximizing the time they've gotten.

I give rookies way more leeway than veterans. Rookies might learn and improve. Veterans are a known product. No one over the age of 30-33 is going to suddenly find their hockey IQ or a set of hands or get faster or something. They are what they are.

Younger players need a chance to make some mistakes and grow. E took huge strides in his 2 years of whipping boy status. Kindl has certainly improved. These aren't really excuses, it's just common sense.

 

[detredWINgs]

I give rookies way more leeway than veterans. Rookies might learn and improve. Veterans are a known product. No one over the age of 30-33 is going to suddenly find their hockey IQ or a set of hands or get faster or something. They are what they are.

Younger players need a chance to make some mistakes and grow. E took huge strides in his 2 years of whipping boy status. Kindl has certainly improved. These aren't really excuses, it's just common sense.

And this is what drives me nuts about Babs the most. Ericsson was given opportunity after opportunity, and he sucked for a long time. Abdelkader was given opportunity after opportunity, and he sucked for a long time. Even Cleary, after he has spent several seasons on a downward spiral, is still given being opportunity after opportunity to, I suppose, "get it back." And he still sucks. Probably always will at this point.

Then you have guys like Nyquist and Tatar who - essentially by nature of their highly skilled offensive game - have to be world-beaters in order to be given the time of day in Babcock's world. As raw as it may sound, they need to be given the opportunity to make mistakes over and over again.

This is why we've seen an exodus (albeit an unwilling one) of highly talented players flourish once they've come out from under Babcock's thumb. And what's perhaps most worrisome is that if other players and clubs start to notice this pattern, its going to be even harder to get a Babcock-headed Wings team to attract highly skilled forwards.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

For all the crabbing about our defense, they went further in the playoffs last year with Kindl-Smith than Lidstrom-Stuart.

We played the kids and it worked. Especially in the playoffs, where the Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner line was our ace in the hole

We've got puck possession personnel. And we our coach lets them play puck possession style, they'll flourish as much as can be expected.

If we play MightyDuckBabcock hockey -- our puckpossession players -- especially the sub 6-footers -- are going to suffer.

It's ridiculous to say we're overvaluing our prospects when we don't give them a chance to show their value.

I don't agree with 99% of the posts you make...but I agree with this wholeheartedly.

People love to watch players develop in the minors and expect the same results with these players in the NHL as when they were in the minors(coaching makes the same mistake)

Players develop in the NHL as well, and it seems that mgt has forgotten that as well.

Another point to jump off is is playing time in the NHL. You can't give a player 9 minutes of ice time every 4 games and expect him to play his best. If you went to work 1 day a week at a new job, you'd spend the 1st 20 minutes trying to remember where your ****ing desk was.

 

[Petes2424]

I view Dekeyser as very mature for a guy with approx 20 games under his belt. Doesn't overplay his game, good position always and a real stay at home dman.

Kindl has a little offensive flare and a real decent shot on PP. I think both can be pleasant surprise for us this year and they compliment each other well.

People should realize that he's not just the stay at hom D in a traditional sense. His quickness and ability to move the puck are what makes him not just another stay at home guy.

Dekeyser should get some consideration for the Calder but because he's not an offensive guy, he won't. This time last year I think most Wings fans would've given thei first born if you told them, in a year they'd have another bigger Rafalski and a Bobby Ryan clone either playing in or certainly very close to playing in the league.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I agree 100% with this, I don't think Holland or Babcock are maximizing our players talents, I'm just trying to drive the point home that we don't hold some of our players accountable like we do to others. We'll be the first ones to point out how ****** Cleary is, but Tatar or Nyquist or Kindl or Smith? It's not their fault, it's Babcock's or Holland's.

Yes, I know people call them out for their bad play, I'm just saying that excuses are made for them more than other players. Probably because like you said, they weren't given a shot, or a big enough shot. But still, it's not like they're maximizing the time they've gotten.

This post is pure gold.

People want to see these guys get their freakin' opportunity before they make a decision.

I "suspect" Tatar could score 20-30 goals for $800,000 if given the opportunity to play with Datsyuk or Zetterberg. I think Nyquist could be a very productive player.

I think Kindl can be a solid top 4 guy who plays the PP and PK.

If we had guys who were doing all these jobs and doing them very well, there would be a lot less outcry about players not getting their shot.

But we've got guys who really aren't doing that great a job. We've got a bunch of average type players who don't help us win now and who have no future here.

So let's turn the ****ing page and get on with it.

If Tatar gets a ton of icetime and looks like Leino, not many guys are going to bust an organ when he gets traded for a Norwegan myth.

If Nyquist get 100 games in the top 6 and isn't yo-yo'd in and out of the lineup, and he shows he's no better than Dan Cleary, then fans are going to start *****ing about Dan Cleary.

The guys like Kindl -- we're only actually just starting to get a real look at him in a somewhat significant role. Kindl has never really been bad. He's just never really been all that good. But he's playing pretty reliably these days. He's cut down on errors. His big areas of concern (physical play, decision making with the puck in his own end) are much improved.

But even now -- I look at Kindl's icetime (17:18 -- lower than everyone but Lashoff) and shake my head,
He's been better with the puck than Dekeyser, who's had a number of turnovers. He's only been on the ice for one goal against.
And yet he's constantly the lowest or second lowest in icetime.

Fans want to see these kids get their shot before they decide these guys are bunk.
We know what Sammy, Bertuzzi, Cleary and company are. We think we can be better and we want to see the coach and GM explore avenues and see if the kids are up to the task.

It's simple as that.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm not ignoring the situations they're in, we went through years of debating if Quincey was good because he was good or because he played with 1st line talent and 1st unit PP. I'm not seeing any difference in argument here. If Kindl was really good offensively, you'd see it more, I highly doubt if a guy like Karlsson or Subban were here playing Kindl's minutes with 2nd and 3rd line guys they wouldn't show more than what Kindl is. Yes, I know, another bad comparison.

Subban of course.
But nobody sees Kindl as a Subban.
What Kindl might be is a 8-12 goal, 30 to 45 point guy from the second pairing. A rock solid contributor that every team needs

 

[Sadekuuro]

I disagree. His size, skating and athleticism allow him to be a great checker without the physical aspect. And I'd loathe seeing him give up his already impressive positional game to add a big-hitting physical dimension to his game.

I wasn't suggesting giving up his positional game--his instincts are impressive. But adding the ability to punish would give him another dimension and make him more effective against big forwards. Admittedly it may never work for him, and really I just love Seidenberg's game, but if he could pull it off it would definitely be to his benefit.

This time last year I think most Wings fans would've given thei first born if you told them, in a year they'd have another bigger Rafalski and a Bobby Ryan clone either playing in or certainly very close to playing in the league.

I'd love to know who these two players supposedly are I hope you don't mean DeKeyser. The closest thing we have to Rafalski is Adam Almqvist, who is yet another smurf. (Nor do I see any 6'2 210+ goal scoring wingers besides Mantha, who is not at all close.)



On another note, I thought Kindl was excellent today.

 

[Petes2424]

I wasn't suggesting giving up his positional game--his instincts are impressive. But adding the ability to punish would give him another dimension and make him more effective against big forwards. Admittedly it may never work for him, and really I just love Seidenberg's game, but if he could pull it off it would definitely be to his benefit.



I'd love to know who these two players supposedly are I hope you don't mean DeKeyser. The closest thing we have to Rafalski is Adam Almqvist, who is yet another smurf. (Nor do I see any 6'2 210+ goal scoring wingers besides Mantha, who is not at all close.)



On another note, I thought Kindl was excellent today.

I absolutely mean both the guys you mentioned. If you don't think Dekeyser plays like Brian Rafalski with more size, not sure if you just read stats or actually watch the players. Your reference to size would indicate the former. As for Mantha, I think I continue to be proven right about him at every level and where his game is at compared to others at points in there development. Just simply go read my comments over the last year or two on this board about him. I've never wavered once and everything I've said has played out, except I never thought he'd end up in Detroit. In fact, he's probably ahead of schedule. Not sure what or who you're watching, maybe you can't remember Rafalski in his prime or couldn't pick Bobby Ryan out of a lineup when he was 18. The same things said about Ryan have been said about Mantha. Fact is they are about as similar as two guys get except Mantha is a year or two ahead of Ryan because he adjusts to the speed of the game better.

That said, original point still stands. We'll see what Holland ends up doing. I'm betting in a top end D ending up in Detroit.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don;t see Dekeyser as a Rafalski with size.
Maybe Mantha is a Ryan type. That would be a coup. Though I'd rather have a Perry type.