Question about Kindl and Dekeyser

[PullHard]

I don't care about just this year, show me something other than 'promise'. All I see are if's with a lot of the guys who haven't shown things.

Though to be fair, there aren't many opportunities given around in the last season or two. And if there are, it is given to vets almost always. Sometimes guys like Abdelkader get an opportunity, but Babcock has never really given Kindl a boatload of PP time.

 

[Heaton]

Though to be fair, there aren't many opportunities given around in the last season or two. And if there are, it is given to vets almost always. Sometimes guys like Abdelkader get an opportunity, but Babcock has never really given Kindl a boatload of PP time.

It is fair, but guys like Kindl with the offensive chops that people talk about need to be able to demonstrate it in other areas than just theory. You need to be able to produce in the time you're given to justify more time in these cases. Kindl plays a decent amount of time, really good offensive defensemen find a way to contribute. Bad comparison, but I'll make it anyway - if Karlsson was given the same PP time that Kindl has been given, he'd still produce more than Kindl because he's a guy who has real offensive chops. We haven't seen that from Kindl yet.

 

[PullHard]

It is fair, but guys like Kindl with the offensive chops that people talk about need to be able to demonstrate it in other areas than just theory. You need to be able to produce in the time you're given to justify more time in these cases. Kindl plays a decent amount of time, really good offensive defensemen find a way to contribute. Bad comparison, but I'll make it anyway - if Karlsson was given the same PP time that Kindl has been given, he'd still produce more than Kindl because he's a guy who has real offensive chops. We haven't seen that from Kindl yet.

Well you're right. I am not going to say otherwise, because you are. Kindl will never produce or create offence the way a guy like Karlsson can. I just think that Kindl could be doing more than he is if he got 3-5 games worth of 1st unit PP time. Not asking for a ton on that front, but Kindl and Weiss are bound to stick on the 2nd unit I think, just the way the team is run. I'm not saying Kindl is more deserving of the opportunity than anyone else, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice not to give him a solid look there. The Wings used a 1st rounder to pick him and have brought him along for nearly 10 years now.

 

[Heaton]

Well you're right. I am not going to say otherwise, because you are. Kindl will never produce or create offence the way a guy like Karlsson can. I just think that Kindl could be doing more than he is if he got 3-5 games worth of 1st unit PP time. Not asking for a ton on that front, but Kindl and Weiss are bound to stick on the 2nd unit I think, just the way the team is run. I'm not saying Kindl is more deserving of the opportunity than anyone else, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice not to give him a solid look there. The Wings used a 1st rounder to pick him and have brought him along for nearly 10 years now.

OK, but what's stopping me from pointing to Quincey and saying that pretty much any defensemen should be able to produce more getting that much PP IT? I want to see Kindl be more than that if that's who he is.

 

[Brick Top]

Krug was playing on Boston's first unit. Not the second unit of lepers (Bertuzzi, Cleary etc)

Kindl looks good on the second unit. But the second unit looks like arse.

If Kindl was playing with the Datsyuk-Zetterberg group, he'd get plenty of PP points.

Krug's the real deal on offense though, with his shot and passing ability. He'd be a lock on the 1st PP unit with the Wings (assuming he wasn't wallowing in Grand Rapids, of course).

I don't think Kindl's distinguished himself yet as a PP blueline presence despite a lack of good offensive d-men on the Wings team.

I'd like to see him improve to the point where he's good enough to nail down a 1st PP spot, or become a real threat on the 2nd PP. And I agree that the 2nd unit is horrible right now so he's got his work cut out for him.

 

[PullHard]

OK, but what's stopping me from pointing to Quincey and saying that pretty much any defensemen should be able to produce more getting that much PP IT? I want to see Kindl be more than that if that's who he is.

You're right again. More IT should = more points. I am meaning that I think Kindl could become more than what he is. I think his confidence needs a little boosting. The Wings deemed him worthy of being the 19th or 20th (don't remember exactly where he went) best player in his draft year. Quincey got those opportunities in LA and Colorado and produced well, but it hasn't really done anything to improve his overall game. I think if Kindl starts to click with guys like Z/ Datsyuk/ Alfredsson on the PP (resulting in goals being scored) he could hit a higher level of play. Only because he has never really gotten extended chances in the past. Despite his age he is fairly new to being a regular NHL player.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't care about just this year, show me something other than 'promise'. All I see are if's with a lot of the guys who haven't shown things.

Show me the functioning unit he's played on EVER.

Last year in the playoffs, he had a 1G and 1A on the PP.
Nothing to write home about. But he looked good.
Kronwall 0 pp points in the playoffs.
Smith 0 pp points in the playoffs.

Kindl has all the tools and uses them.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Krug's the real deal on offense though, with his shot and passing ability. He'd be a lock on the 1st PP unit with the Wings (assuming he wasn't wallowing in Grand Rapids, of course).

I don't think Kindl's distinguished himself yet as a PP blueline presence despite a lack of good offensive d-men on the Wings team.

I'd like to see him improve to the point where he's good enough to nail down a 1st PP spot, or become a real threat on the 2nd PP. And I agree that the 2nd unit is horrible right now so he's got his work cut out for him.

Coach is dead set on running a forward on D on the PP, so Kindl isn't breaking in to the top unit no matter what he does.

 

[Henkka]

You're right again. More IT should = more points. I am meaning that I think Kindl could become more than what he is. I think his confidence needs a little boosting. The Wings deemed him worthy of being the 19th or 20th (don't remember exactly where he went) best player in his draft year. Quincey got those opportunities in LA and Colorado and produced well, but it hasn't really done anything to improve his overall game. I think if Kindl starts to click with guys like Z/ Datsyuk/ Alfredsson on the PP (resulting in goals being scored) he could hit a higher level of play. Only because he has never really gotten extended chances in the past. Despite his age he is fairly new to being a regular NHL player.

Kindl is getting quite good offensive icetime. 2nd most ES time and 2nd most PP time. His overall +18min role just looks "minor role" because he doesn't kill penalties.

 

[Heaton]

Show me the functioning unit he's played on EVER.

Last year in the playoffs, he had a 1G and 1A on the PP.
Nothing to write home about. But he looked good.
Kronwall 0 pp points in the playoffs.
Smith 0 pp points in the playoffs.

Kindl has all the tools and uses them.

His 30 pts in 150 games? Gotta see more than that. I don't really care about his situations, I view them as excuses for why he hasn't produced.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Kindl is a perfect guy for the first PP unit, of course the second unit would function much better by benching all the old farts and putting the kids in and running a motion PP with Kronwall and Smith on the backend.

We have been over this before, but Kindl is exceptional at walking the line and getting shots through. What does this provide, a guy that plays to Franzen's strengths as a net front guy and pulls defenders with him for the curls that both Zetterberg and Datsyuk prefer on the half wall.

He is a true PP QB, his strengths match that unit better, Kronwall is a guy that likes to cheat in and play off space, not really what is needed for that unit. Kindl is also a pretty good wheel house passer, it is hard to notice it because Sammy just fires it off the glass when he does it, this isn't really an area of terrible weakness though for Kronwall.

But separating them might make a big difference in how each unit plays. As many pointed out Kronwall produced well with the second units (all of which were better and by that we mean tons better than the second unit of the last two years) where he was a goal scoring option dropping down into the slot when the opportunity was there. Why not play to each guys strength and the reduction in PP duty will leave a fresher Kronwall and a more balanced production out of both PP units.

 

[PullHard]

Kindl is getting quite good offensive icetime. 2nd most ES time and 2nd most PP time. His overall +18min role just looks "minor role" because he doesn't kill penalties.

2nd most PP time = 2nd unit, though. We only use 1 dman on the 1st unit.

But I also have yet to catch any of our games in their entirety, so I likely also missed some of this. I was basing it partly on what I've seen and partly on what the numbers are telling me. I am glad he and DeKeyser are getting more ES ice for sure. I think that pair has a good balance.

 

[Heaton]

Kindl is a perfect guy for the first PP unit, of course the second unit would function much better by benching all the old farts and putting the kids in and running a motion PP with Kronwall and Smith on the backend.

We have been over this before, but Kindl is exceptional at walking the line and getting shots through. What does this provide, a guy that plays to Franzen's strengths as a net front guy and pulls defenders with him for the curls that both Zetterberg and Datsyuk prefer on the half wall.

He is a true PP QB, his strengths match that unit better, Kronwall is a guy that likes to cheat in and play off space, not really what is needed for that unit. Kindl is also a pretty good wheel house passer, it is hard to notice it because Sammy just fires it off the glass when he does it, this isn't really an area of terrible weakness though for Kronwall.

But separating them might make a big difference in how each unit plays. As many pointed out Kronwall produced well with the second units (all of which were better and by that we mean tons better than the second unit of the last two years) where he was a goal scoring option dropping down into the slot when the opportunity was there. Why not play to each guys strength and the reduction in PP duty will leave a fresher Kronwall and a more balanced production out of both PP units.

Because Kronwall is our best and really only proven offensive defenseman. I don't mind trying things to try and get the 1st PP unit going, but calling Kindl a perfect person to play there with the idea that he is some real fix seems like a stretch for a guy who's scored 30pts total in his career.

 

[PullHard]

Because Kronwall is our best and really only proven offensive defenseman. I don't mind trying things to try and get the 1st PP unit going, but calling Kindl a perfect person to play there with the idea that he is some real fix seems like a stretch for a guy who's scored 30pts total in his career.

How long has Kindl been a regular NHLer, though? Yeah, he might only have 30 points in (did you say 150 games earlier?), but before last season, he was always playing for his NHL life, never anything more than a 6/7 on our team. I don't think it is fair to say "he hasn't produced" because he has only recently been given a steady, regular role on the team. Most people think Tatar would help make our 3rd line/ bottom 6 faster and more offensively capable, and you could easily say that he hasn't scored much in the NHL. I don't think you'd be technically wrong, but I don't think that it would hurt anything to give a kid a shot, and try to stir something up.

 

[Heaton]

How long has Kindl been a regular NHLer, though? Yeah, he might only have 30 points in (did you say 150 games earlier?), but before last season, he was always playing for his NHL life, never anything more than a 6/7 on our team. I don't think it is fair to say "he hasn't produced" because he has only recently been given a steady, regular role on the team. Most people think Tatar would help make our 3rd line/ bottom 6 faster and more offensively capable, and you could easily say that he hasn't scored much in the NHL. I don't think you'd be wrong, but saying that sticking with Cleary/ Bertuzzi/ Samuelsson there for the foreseeable future likely won't make the bottom 6 offensively capable.

Yep, that's true. I'm growing a little impatient with the guys who are supposed to be progressing to the point that they make a difference though. So it's probably my own problem.

 

[Winger98]

With all of the talk about fixing the powerplay, how about just getting the forwards off the point entirely. Move Alfredsson or Franzen to the second unit and bump Smith and Quincey onto the powerplay. You immediately get more skill up front on the second unit and put guys on the blueline who are accustomed to being there.

Z-D-Franzen
Kronwall-Kindl

Bert-Weiss-Alfredsson
Smith-Q

It also removes any real reason to keep Sammy in the lineup.

 

[Brick Top]

Coach is dead set on running a forward on D on the PP, so Kindl isn't breaking in to the top unit no matter what he does.

Yeah, I thought about that after posting. Maybe if he starts lighting it up on offense he'd almost force Babs' hand into putting him on the #1 PP.

I'd much rather have Alfredsson on the wing to have a RH one timer option, so I'd take either Kindl or Smith proving themselves offensively and bumping Alfie off the point.

 

[PullHard]

With all of the talk about fixing the powerplay, how about just getting the forwards off the point entirely. Move Alfredsson or Franzen to the second unit and bump Smith and Quincey onto the powerplay. You immediately get more skill up front on the second unit and put guys on the blueline who are accustomed to being there.

Z-D-Franzen
Kronwall-Kindl

Bert-Weiss-Alfredsson
Smith-Q

It also removes any real reason to keep Sammy in the lineup.

Alfredsson is historically really good at playing high/ on the half wall, though. I don't think him being there is a problem. I just like to see the coaches trying new stuff every now and then. I'm not worried because our 1st unit is pretty stacked and will likely only get better as time goes on, but if we still aren't scoring with any regularity on the PP in a few games from now, why not try something different?

Yep, that's true. I'm growing a little impatient with the guys who are supposed to be progressing to the point that they make a difference though. So it's probably my own problem.

Oh for sure, I was expecting a lot more from guys like Smith and Kindl at this point. I think that these guys are drafted for their talent but then beaten over the head with commitment to a 200 foot game once they hit the AHL/ NHL. I think that is where my frustration comes in. I like the fact that we demand responsible defensive play from our guys, though. It is a double edged sword. The fact that Kindl is as aggressive as he is now says a lot about his and the team's dedication to working on that aspect of our players games. Kindl was not drafted as a guy who played that way. But it would be nice to see one of our guys put his old talent together with his new 200 foot game sooner than our guys have been. I guess this is the reality of typically drafting from the late 1st/ early or mid 2nd round and on. You probably won't find a guy who has it all before the age of 23 or 24.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

His 30 pts in 150 games? Gotta see more than that. I don't really care about his situations, I view them as excuses for why he hasn't produced.

Then you've got an unreasonable position.
There's only so much offense you're going to get from a defenseman who plays most of his time with players who either don't have skills, or who are being told to cut out the skill and dump it in.

You know when Kindl's game got better?
Look it up.

When he started playing with Eaves-Andersson-Tatar.
It gave him some skill to work with.

You know why Kindl looked good in the playoffs?
Because in the playoffs he played with a Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner line that could move the puck.

Call it excuses if you want. But Kindl is a puck possession guy.
And when he plays with non-puckpossession players, it doesn't ****ing work.

It's like all the *****ing about Smith. If you ask him to play defensive, "stupid hockey," as Brett Hull would call Babcock's hockey, he's going to struggle.

We've got a GM who likes puckmovers.
We've got a coach who likes dump and chase hockey (and then pretends he doesn't).

 

[RedWingsNow*]

With all of the talk about fixing the powerplay, how about just getting the forwards off the point entirely. Move Alfredsson or Franzen to the second unit and bump Smith and Quincey onto the powerplay. You immediately get more skill up front on the second unit and put guys on the blueline who are accustomed to being there.

Z-D-Franzen
Kronwall-Kindl

Bert-Weiss-Alfredsson
Smith-Q

It also removes any real reason to keep Sammy in the lineup.

I'd out Alfredsson on the top unit. I like the way he fires the puck.

Move Franzen to the second unit. Replace Bert with Tatar. Use Ericsson instead of Quincey.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Oh for sure, I was expecting a lot more from guys like Smith and Kindl at this point. I think that these guys are drafted for their talent but then beaten over the head with commitment to a 200 foot game once they hit the AHL/ NHL. I think that is where my frustration comes in. I like the fact that we demand responsible defensive play from our guys, though. It is a double edged sword. The fact that Kindl is as aggressive as he is now says a lot about his and the team's dedication to working on that aspect of our players games. Kindl was not drafted as a guy who played that way. But it would be nice to see one of our guys put his old talent together with his new 200 foot game sooner than our guys have been. I guess this is the reality of typically drafting from the late 1st/ early or mid 2nd round and on. You probably won't find a guy who has it all before the age of 23 or 24.

Agree here, I can see and understand the whole 200 foot game but sometime we dont seem to play our guys to their strengths.

 

[PullHard]

Agree here, I can see and understand the whole 200 foot game but sometime we dont seem to play our guys to their strengths.

Yeah. I think we've seen it in Smith for the last year now. He doesn't excel playing this stunted version of himself. It may have ended White's career in the NHL.

edit: And it might delay Tatar's development/ NHL career more than our poor roster management already has.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Yeah. I think we've seen it in Smith for the last year now. He doesn't excel playing this stunted version of himself. It may have ended White's career in the NHL.

edit: And it might delay Tatar's development/ NHL career more than our poor roster management already has.

I think we should look to have a 3rd line like Montreal's kids, they let them play more to their strength and I think it will be better for the players development. This business of sitting a young guy after he makes mistakes is no good because then he wont try and be creative and thats why we drafted him

 

[Heaton]

Then you've got an unreasonable position.
There's only so much offense you're going to get from a defenseman who plays most of his time with players who either don't have skills, or who are being told to cut out the skill and dump it in.

You know when Kindl's game got better?
Look it up.

When he started playing with Eaves-Andersson-Tatar.
It gave him some skill to work with.

You know why Kindl looked good in the playoffs?
Because in the playoffs he played with a Nyquist-Andersson-Brunner line that could move the puck.

Call it excuses if you want. But Kindl is a puck possession guy.
And when he plays with non-puckpossession players, it doesn't ****ing work.

It's like all the *****ing about Smith. If you ask him to play defensive, "stupid hockey," as Brett Hull would call Babcock's hockey, he's going to struggle.

We've got a GM who likes puckmovers.
We've got a coach who likes dump and chase hockey (and then pretends he doesn't).

I can and I will. Difference makers make a difference, if that isn't Kindl, fine. But I think we need to stop pretending some of our young guys are as good as we hoped. Still better than the geezers in the lineup, though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Kronwall broke in under a coach that allowed him to play minutes and have offensive opportunities. Scary part is that is Dave Lewis a head coach we all made fun of. Even still in his first 115 NHL games he had 34 points and was hardly an offensive dynamo.

Kindl's strengths are not accentuated by a group of players that cannot gain the zone and then are in scramble mode unable to setup the PP. He and Weiss are basically the only thing working on that second unit. He looked best in his brief time hanging out with Nyquist and Filppula last year on the PP why? Because they could gain the zone and the setup could happen. He sees the ice well and has a good low hard shot, everything about his game on the PP screams this would be successful if he was surrounded by the right personnel. By the way Marchenko has this quality coming up. Kindl is also our best D-man at keeping the zone and area where both Kronwall and Smith are quite suspect.

So keeping it alive a couple times with Weiss and no talent forwards or keeping it alive at the blue line with Datsyuk and Zetterberg is a big difference for me.

Said it going into the season but these are the units I would run.

Z - Datsyuk - Franzen
Kindl - Alfie

Tatar - Weiss - Nyquist
Kronwall - Smith

Now since Nyquist isn't up the second unit has problems right now, but it could be an ultimate movement unit, similar to the unit constructed in Edmonton under Renney a couple years back. But with him out you could go to a more classic approach and trot out Gator who at this point is a better net front guy than either Cleary or Bert. Don't love it, but he should play over those two these days.

My opinion is teams have become too stagnant in their PP philosophies to begin with. Having something that doesn't operate in the classic way would help, part of what made our second unit effective a couple years back was Kronwall's ability to activate into the slot, it really bothered teams. You don't want him to take that space from Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Alfie in terms of him activating, but he would have the green light on the second unit and I think we nee more balance. Really good PP teams attack in two pronged waives and they don't necessarily have the same look with each unit. It makes the task a heck of a lot harder than lets sit in a box and block shots. We have become far too predictable and that is because Babcock is set in his roles and ideas on how hockey should be played. He is like the baseball pitcher that throws 95% fastballs, well guess what we have lost some velocity time to work on some secondary pitches/ideas and earn your money.