Quebec still waiting patiently.

[Stephen]

If the last ten years of Arizona isn't desperate enough to relocate to Quebec, I'm not sure what kind of catastrophe is needed.

 

[Frenchy]

I didnt change my mind , as long as PKP is there to lead the Nordiques , Québec wont be in the NHL .
From the NHL pov , PKP is Jim Balsillie 2.0 ( probably even worst now with the TVA sports crap of a few days ago ) and i highly doubt that they want him to sit at the BOG table.

I'm willing to bet that if this whole Québec adventure was lead by power corp and the Desmarais family insted of PKP , Québec would already be in the NHL , maybe as far as 2-3 years ago.

It's sad for the Nords fans , but it's the reality and only PKP doesnt see it

 

[DowntownBooster]

Approx. 7 million is an entertainment tax that is reimbursed to the team. This tax is incorporated into the ticket prices. The other Winnipeg pro teams are also reimbursed this tax. I think the symphony, ballet and playhouses are as well. I don't believe charging this entertainment tax for pro teams in other NHL cities is common. Bottom line is that the Jets are being reimbursed for the total value of ticket sold - a revenue source. I don't really agree that this particularly subsidy distorts the Jets' true revenue.

The team also receives an annual subsidy of around $6.5 - $7 million from VLTs/slot machines at the Shark Club next door to the arena. When the team relocated to Winnipeg, an agreement between the province and True North was reached which saw "underperforming" VLTs from the casinos in Winnipeg relocated to the Shark Club and any revenues derived from these machines would accrue to True North. The assumption, of course, is that Jet games and any other events at the Bell MTS Place would result in a marked increase in sales for the surrounding businesses, including the Shark Club and those VLTs. I don't really agree with the team receiving this subsidy.

For the Jets to retain this subsidy, they are required to expend all of it on arena improvements which they have. Even with this condition attached (which has brought the arena in line with the more typical standards of other NHL arenas) I do agree with you that this particular revenue source does boost the Jets' overall revenue. For the record, I do not believe the team would have received this specific subsidy if they had originally built an arena similar to those in places like St. Paul, Phoenix, Columbus around the turn of the millennium - not necessarily as large in capacity as those particular places, but with greater revenue potential.

Thanks for providing a better picture regarding the Jets "subsidies". The way it's been portrayed by others is a bit misleading. As you correctly point out, the majority of the funds is a refund on entertainment taxes levied on events at Bell MTS Place as well as a business tax rebate and property tax breaks for the building. These are all funds that would not have been generated if not for the business generated by True North. In regards to the income earned from gaming at the Shark Club next door in CityPlace, I would say it's more like revenue sharing than it is a subsidy since the bulk of revenue generated there is from people attending events held in Bell MTS Place.

The provincial and civic governments benefit far more from having the Winnipeg Jets here than if there was no team. The tax refunds and rebates are small in proportion to the income taxes generated from player salaries for both the Jets and Manitoba Moose as well as the staff of the True North organization. On top of that is the sales taxes generated on all the goods and services purchased in the province (by the players and their families, etc). Additional taxes are brought in from the visiting teams (NHL & AHL) along with media covering those teams that stay at hotels and buy meals, etc. The value of downtown property has increased with additional developments which occurred as a result of construction of Bell MTS Place. That in turn increases the amount of property taxes collected by the city.

Since True North was responsible for 70% of the cost to build Bell MTS Place, whereas some arenas have been 100% government funded, it is only fitting that they should receive some refunds and rebates. True North took the risk to build the arena for the Manitoba Moose at the time as there was no guarantee that the NHL would ever return to Winnipeg. The agreements made by the province with True North has proven to have been a good investment for both sides.

 

[Bookie21]

I didnt change my mind , as long as PKP is there to lead the Nordiques , Québec wont be in the NHL .
From the NHL pov , PKP is Jim Balsillie 2.0 ( probably even worst now with the TVA sports crap of a few days ago ) and i highly doubt that they want him to sit at the BOG table.

I'm willing to bet that if this whole Québec adventure was lead by power corp and the Desmarais family insted of PKP , Québec would already be in the NHL , maybe as far as 2-3 years ago.

It's sad for the Nords fans , but it's the reality and only PKP doesnt see it

Agree. PKP is a blowhard who doesn't get along with others, and that would include the BOG. His political past doesn't help either

 

[voyageur]

To run through this again....

"The NHL eats off of....." is a completely meaningless statement. The NHL itself hardly exists as an entity with its own financing. Each team is on its own, for the most part.

There are shared revenues. The shared revenues are:
National TV contracts
Merchandising and national sponsorships

There are redistributed revenues. These are, by CBA, 6% of total league revenues, and are shared from 10 or 11 teams to the rest (I don't know how the CBA was amended when Vegas joined, that's the reason for the 10/11 question).
Of these revenues, 50% come from the top teams. That means that 3% of league wide revenues are shared from those high-income markets. 3%. That's very little. It's equivalent to one more team in the league. It's a bit, but not very much.
The next 35% come from playoff ticket sales. While there is no doubt that playoff ticket sales would be very high priced in Toronto, Montreal and at MSG, it's also true that only 1 of those even qualified this year. This means that money from Tor, Mont and the Rangers hardly contributes to this piece.

Point being: No team continues in its present market because the league takes money from Toronto, Montreal and NY and gives it to them.

Next point:
Some markets receive subsidies from local government. Among the ones who do are Winnipeg and Florida. Let's examine that....
Florida: As mentioned before in another thread, Broward County and the Panthers organization recently amended their lease. It now runs through 2028. In that lease is a decreasing subsidy from Broward. The fact that the subsidy decreases from 12M to 2M a year suggests that the idea is that the team needs this time to penetrate the market. Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. But the fact of a payment remains.

Winnipeg: The organization TNSE receives 12M or so from Winnipeg. The vast majority of this is because of other business NOT connected to hockey at all. The Jets, however, are not the cash cow that some expected they would be. They are consistently in the 15-20 range in revenue. Some of that is due to the CDN dollar. Some is due to the size of their arena.

As to how those relate to Quebec:
Compared to Winnipeg
Arena: Bigger
Population served: Similar, perhaps slightly larger
Benefit to league wide shared revenues: Almost nothing, in actuality (same as Winnipeg)

In short, no matter how you try to slice it:
There is very little reason for league offices (BOG) to try to force a move from Florida to Quebec. Quebec, while it would be a stable franchise, adds little to the league's future. (This was also true of Winnipeg). To the BOG, it's better to have a team in Florida, because of the exposure to the US TV.
Which means, again, that Quebec will only get a team if some current team is bleeding cash enough that it needs to move.

If you think Winnipeg adds little to the league, and its future, then I don't think we are on the same page. Hockey fans. They add hockey fans, win or lose. They add a hockey market to the NHL. Not a market trying to sell hockey to its fans, and finding few in hard times. That's a huge difference. In the U.S. losing won't sell you hockey tickets outside of a few metropolises. Ottawa has proven to be the only Canadian team that can not sustain losing, but there has not been an owner as bad as Melnyk, since Charles Wong. Maybe Anthony Leblanc, but he is more of a frontman, who bought an asset to keep a team afloat, and took his profit out of town, while the league paid the losses.

 

[MNNumbers]

If you think Winnipeg adds little to the league, and its future, then I don't think we are on the same page. Hockey fans. They add hockey fans, win or lose. They add a hockey market to the NHL. Not a market trying to sell hockey to its fans, and finding few in hard times. That's a huge difference. In the U.S. losing won't sell you hockey tickets outside of a few metropolises. Ottawa has proven to be the only Canadian team that can not sustain losing, but there has not been an owner as bad as Melnyk, since Charles Wong. Maybe Anthony Leblanc, but he is more of a frontman, who bought an asset to keep a team afloat, and took his profit out of town, while the league paid the losses.

Point is, it's the individual owner who is paying the freight. The BOG in total doesn't benefit.

Ask yourself this:
How much less would the media contract in Canada be without Winnipeg? How much more would it be with Quebec?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Wait, so you dont understand why fans of teams these QC fans want to see relocated are mad at said QC fans?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[gstommylee]

If the last ten years of Arizona isn't desperate enough to relocate to Quebec, I'm not sure what kind of catastrophe is needed.

IF the coyotes do relocate its not going to be Quebec. More likely it'll be to houston to keep it 16/16.

 

[Fenway]

I didnt change my mind , as long as PKP is there to lead the Nordiques , Québec wont be in the NHL .
From the NHL pov , PKP is Jim Balsillie 2.0 ( probably even worst now with the TVA sports crap of a few days ago ) and i highly doubt that they want him to sit at the BOG table.

I'm willing to bet that if this whole Québec adventure was lead by power corp and the Desmarais family insted of PKP , Québec would already be in the NHL , maybe as far as 2-3 years ago.

It's sad for the Nords fans , but it's the reality and only PKP doesnt see it

I think it is a safe bet that PKP will never get the secret BOG handshake and Quebec's options look bleak.

The political leaders in Quebec City at this point only have one option. They need to sever the arena contract with Quebecor and then offer the keys to the arena to Eugene Melnyk who already has a relationship with Bell Media (RDS, TSN) in that territory.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

If the last ten years of Arizona isn't desperate enough to relocate to Quebec, I'm not sure what kind of catastrophe is needed.

A municipality not willing to underwrite costs when there wasn't a willing owner in place. That simple, Glendale kept providing multimillion dollar checks while the hunt progressed so they're still in the desert. Had that not happened, they'd have been gone for a few years by now.

 

[Mightygoose]

I think it is a safe bet that PKP will never get the secret BOG handshake and Quebec's options look bleak.

The political leaders in Quebec City at this point only have one option. They need to sever the arena contract with Quebecor and then offer the keys to the arena to Eugene Melnyk who already has a relationship with Bell Media (RDS, TSN) in that territory.

Re: The first paragraph, I'll take that bet.

I think the city has other options than to reach out to Melnyk. Unless he is going to take on a partner(s) specifically, local/Quebecois. He will be run out of town faster than people in Ottawa (and perhaps the BOG) are trying to do.

I find businesses in that province are not supported well if it's owned/managed by outside interests. Melnyk sure wouldn't cut it. If the league does return to QC, I'm more than certain they'll want local/provincial interests running the team.

 

[gstommylee]

Re: The first paragraph, I'll take that bet.

I think the city has other options than to reach out to Melnyk. Unless he is going to take on a partner(s) specifically, local/Quebecois. He will be run out of town faster than people in Ottawa (and perhaps the BOG) are trying to do.

I find businesses in that province are not supported well if it's owned/managed by outside interests. Melnyk sure wouldn't cut it. If the league does return to QC, I'm more than certain they'll want local/provincial interests running the team.

And that would require potentially forcing the current group out for quebec.

 

[HugoSimon]

Point is, it's the individual owner who is paying the freight. The BOG in total doesn't benefit.

Ask yourself this:
How much less would the media contract in Canada be without Winnipeg? How much more would it be with Quebec?

The question is how much less would it be if it were only the big 3 market teams.

Winnipeg isn't there why is Otttawa, why is Edomonton, why is Calgary?

You start behaving like this your just begging for another sports league to start eating up those television dollars.

The MLS went to Toronto and they already have a team worth 300 million. A league that was ECHL level just 15 years ago.

 

[MNNumbers]

The question is how much less would it be if it were only the big 3 market teams.

Winnipeg isn't there why is Otttawa, why is Edomonton, why is Calgary?

You start behaving like this your just begging for another sports league to start eating up those television dollars.

The MLS went to Toronto and they already have a team worth 300 million. A league that was ECHL level just 15 years ago.

If the topic of conversation were: How many teams and cities are necessary to create a top level sports league in America? Then I would agree with this.

However, the topic is actually: How much does Winnipeg add to the league as it is presently configured? And, the answer goes something like this:
1- Since Atlanta was basically forcibly removed from their arena, and it looks very bad to have a contraction, then Winnipeg was very valuable in the moment in which the Jets 2.0 were born. Very valuable. It was a great face-saving measure.
2- If one were going to actually analyze TV rights, one might say something like this.....There is a point where there are enough teams in the larger populated areas in Canada that the entire country is 'covered' in some sense. Obviously, no teams west of Toronto is NOT the answer to the question of "How many is enough?" Since Winnipeg fits a big opening in the puzzle, it's a fine location for one of those teams. With no teams in the west, if there were high$$ cities in the US available also, then there would be a possibility of a new league (This is, after all, the story of the WHA).
3- Given that the league does exist already, however, it also seems that presently, if there were no Winnipeg, the Rogers TV deal would not be much smaller than what it is. And, in that totally monetary sense, which is the only thing the present BOG really cares about, at present, Winnipeg does not add much.
4- However, given that a relocation or a contraction would be, in some sense, damaging to the league's reputation, the continuance of the Winnipeg franchise is worth something. This argument extends to many smaller markets, and it is the reason for revenue re-distribution.

However, in a larger sense,Winnipeg came into the discussion because I had said that an expansion to Quebec would do nothing for the league as a whole, except to gain the other owners the expansion fee. This can be seen because it seems very unlikely that the Rogers deal would be higher with Nordiques 2.0 than without. And, there is no other mechanism by which the present owners could gain from Quebec getting a team.

Thus, again, for monetary reasons, Nordiques 2.0, if they arrive, will do so by relocation of a stressed franchise.

 

[HugoSimon]

Thus, again, for monetary reasons, Nordiques 2.0, if they arrive, will do so by relocation of a stressed franchise.

I don't think there is much dispute over that.

The additional issue would be a major political change where QC became open for Anglophone business.

It's on the radar as its relatively clear the younger generation is tired of their parents mission, its a question of when and how long will it take to change the economic geography of the St Lawrence Gulf Region.

 

[Mightygoose]

If the topic of conversation were: How many teams and cities are necessary to create a top level sports league in America? Then I would agree with this.




ontinuance of the Winnipeg franchise is worth something. This argument extends to many smaller markets, and it is the reason for revenue re-distribution.

Thus, again, for monetary reasons, Nordiques 2.0, if they arrive, will do so by relocation of a stressed franchise.

This reasoning makes sense and in some ways it has applied to other moves to smaller markets over the years.

In the NBA's history, would they have expanded to areas like Memphis, OKC, New Orleans or even going back as far as Sacramento or Salt Lake City.

Though all of the above seem to be viable, does the value of the NBA's TV contract or national sponsorship really depend on teams located there as opposed to elsewhere? In all of those cases, they helped out the league when there was either and ownership or arena situation that couldn't have been resolved.

Even in the NFL, I don't think Vegas was on their go to list but the state came through with funding and help resolve a long stadium issue as well.

Hence Quebec seems to be on the speed dial list should it be needed.

 

[BattleBorn]

This reasoning makes sense and in some ways it has applied to other moves to smaller markets over the years.

In the NBA's history, would they have expanded to areas like Memphis, OKC, New Orleans or even going back as far as Sacramento or Salt Lake City.

Though all of the above seem to be viable, does the value of the NBA's TV contract or national sponsorship really depend on teams located there as opposed to elsewhere? In all of those cases, they helped out the league when there was either and ownership or arena situation that couldn't have been resolved.

Even in the NFL, I don't think Vegas was on their go to list but the state came through with funding and help resolve a long stadium issue as well.

Hence Quebec seems to be on the speed dial list should it be needed.

Don't think you can look in retrospect and draw those conclusions. The NBA was a league in a pretty different situation when they expanded into those markets, even as recently as New Orleans and OKC. If they were sitting where they are today financially, they may have made different decisions but they wouldn't be there without making those decisions previously, so it's kind of a logic circle. The NBA's national deal isn't really locality or even team based, they're now at a point where they could likely throw teams randomly around the globe and make it work. Much like the NFL.

I don't think Las Vegas was super high on the NFL's radar for territorial "expansion" of their league, but I also don't think it matters to them. Again, put teams randomly in cities and I think they're still in a similar situation.

 

[New User Name]

If you think Winnipeg adds little to the league, and its future, then I don't think we are on the same page. Hockey fans. They add hockey fans, win or lose. They add a hockey market to the NHL. Not a market trying to sell hockey to its fans, and finding few in hard times. That's a huge difference. In the U.S. losing won't sell you hockey tickets outside of a few metropolises. Ottawa has proven to be the only Canadian team that can not sustain losing, but there has not been an owner as bad as Melnyk, since Charles Wong. Maybe Anthony Leblanc, but he is more of a frontman, who bought an asset to keep a team afloat, and took his profit out of town, while the league paid the losses.

I read somewhere that when the Jets came back thousands of kids took up playing the game in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and South Western Ontario. I thought the whole "grow the game" thing was for everyone. Apparently I'm wrong. It's actually grow the game in the country about 120KM south of Winnipeg.

 

[Slashers98]

I read somewhere that when the Jets came back thousands of kids took up playing the game in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and South Western Ontario. I thought the whole "grow the game" thing was for everyone. Apparently I'm wrong. It's actually grow the game in the country about 120KM south of Winnipeg.

Grow the game in Bettman's country and don't give a crap about Canada!

 

[zetajerk]

If not having an NHL team where you live (or having to see outsiders participate) has such a profoundly negative effect on your life, then you have much deeper issues than not having an NHL team where you live (or having to see outsiders participate).

Why not let go of what you can't control, and enjoy what you do have and everything else life has to offer? Anything has to be better than moaning on internet forums.

The Canes could leave tomorrow and it would hurt like hell, but I think I would move on with my life and be ok. I certainly wouldn't be doing what relocationistas do.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I read somewhere that when the Jets came back thousands of kids took up playing the game in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and South Western Ontario. I thought the whole "grow the game" thing was for everyone. Apparently I'm wrong. It's actually grow the game in the country about 120KM south of Winnipeg.

So what do you want the league to do, give a team to freaking Thunder Bay?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I know they think we're crazy down here for going gaga over "amateur" football, but as long as people will whine on here about not having NHL franchises, why can't they make the CHL just as crazy up there for major junior? We have places like Lincoln, Knoxville, Ann Arbor, Clemson, with these palaces of sport and rabid fans in their 10s of thousands. Many of whom could give a rat's about the NFL. Make your own happiness.

 

[Fenway]

If not having an NHL team where you live (or having to see outsiders participate) has such a profoundly negative effect on your life, then you have much deeper issues than not having an NHL team where you live (or having to see outsiders participate).

Why not let go of what you can't control, and enjoy what you do have and everything else life has to offer? Anything has to be better than moaning on internet forums.

The Canes could leave tomorrow and it would hurt like hell, but I think I would move on with my life and be ok. I certainly wouldn't be doing what relocationistas do.

Based on what happened last night I don't think the Canes are moving anytime soon.

BUT - Tom Dundon will need to see a major uptick in STH's and corporate sponsorship or he WILL look at other options.

 

[HugoSimon]

I know they think we're crazy down here for going gaga over "amateur" football, but as long as people will whine on here about not having NHL franchises, why can't they make the CHL just as crazy up there for major junior? We have places like Lincoln, Knoxville, Ann Arbor, Clemson, with these palaces of sport and rabid fans in their 10s of thousands. Many of whom could give a rat's about the NFL. Make your own happiness.

Why anything, this is what is frustrating about talking to any sports fan about sports.

You have those emotional attachments that you value and we have ours. You can't throw out the baby with the bath water and pretend like our motivations are less pure than your own.

This idea that Canadians are gonna forever be happy being silent observers in an American League is not gonna last forever.

The fact is we pay for more than our 7 teams we are allotted if the roles were reversed American's would never tolerate it.

It's only a matter of time before the NHL starts loosing its firm grip on the Canadian audiences.

We have things like the Canadian Premier League starting up and its only a matter of time before these types of things start eating up the national television contract money.

 

[powerstuck]

Point is, it's the individual owner who is paying the freight. The BOG in total doesn't benefit.

Ask yourself this:
How much less would the media contract in Canada be without Winnipeg? How much more would it be with Quebec?

I agree with you. But this also works with US markets. I am still waiting to see the proof, but I don't think the US National deal will grow by a significant margin because of Seattle. Sure, there will be a local TV deal that currently does not exist, but that is also true for every other market.