Quebec still in discussions.

[Fatass]

Well, yes and no.

They are trying to generate a bigger national TV deal by having a bigger footprint in bigger American markets. They are trying to make the league less gate-driven.

As a Quebec City guy, it sucks. But the strategy makes sense. Is it working? No. Could it be revised? Probably. However, we have to be realistic, coming to Quebec City does not help the NHL grow. It COULD very well stabilize a franchise, but, long term, the upside is not huge. Quebec City is what it is and demand here will never be higher.

Atlanta is an important southern US TV market. The franchise moved to a small Canadian City (by comparison) because it just wasn’t financially viable in Atlanta. The Coyotes are bleeding money, and have been since they started. The Covid crisis is hurting a lot of teams. The league is suffering. They need to control the immediate bleeding. Moving the Coyotes to Quebec City controls the bleeding, and is a far better option the contraction.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Atlanta is an important southern US TV market. The franchise moved to a small Canadian City (by comparison) because it just wasn’t financially viable in Atlanta. The Coyotes are bleeding money, and have been since they started. The Covid crisis is hurting a lot of teams. The league is suffering. They need to control the immediate bleeding. Moving the Coyotes to Quebec City controls the bleeding, and is a far better option the contraction.

The only reason why Atlanta moved is because their OWNERS wanted them out of the arena. NHL had not other option and Winnipeg was the only market that was ready to take them. Winnipeg got lucky timing, basically.

Coyotes are still in Arizona because the landlord want them in their arena. If it had been the same thing in Atlanta, the NHL would have been as stubborn as they are with the Coyotes.

If it comes to contraction vs moving the franchise, sure, they'll move the franchise.

 

[LPHabsFan]

I still believe in what Gord Miller said on the radio two or three years ago on TSN 690 in Montreal. We can talk about the economics and the American TV footprint all we want but those things are to some degree used as a smokescreen to one of the things that's at the heart of their apprehension to putting a team in Quebec which is; the NHL does not want to go to Quebec so long as PKP is involved and/or the nature of the political discourse in the province. I know we try not to delve in to politics in here but in this case it's unavoidable. Right now the political climate in Quebec is not good and it's only going to get worse in the next few years. The whole separation movement is back (even though it's well hidden) and with it comes and increase in desire to enforce language laws (that's very out in the open right now). You think the NHL wants to get involved with that stuff? Hell no.

 

[Melrose Munch]

As much as Suns fans would LOVE to see Sarver gone he isn’t letting go anytime soon.

Meruelo can still build an arena out near ASU and get as good if not better results than downtown. However the on ice product is the biggest need. Suns and DBacks already proved playing downtown isn’t a sure thing.

Sarver has no money and tried to sell some time ago despite what he says publically. My issue with ASU is that the west valley people will use the same traffic excuse east valley people make now. A place over talking stick or somewhere else in downtown Phoenix will be better for the market. It's more central.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I still believe in what Gord Miller said on the radio two or three years ago on TSN 690 in Montreal. We can talk about the economics and the American TV footprint all we want but those things are to some degree used as a smokescreen to one of the things that's at the heart of their apprehension to putting a team in Quebec which is; the NHL does not want to go to Quebec so long as PKP is involved and/or the nature of the political discourse in the province. I know we try not to delve in to politics in here but in this case it's unavoidable. Right now the political climate in Quebec is not good and it's only going to get worse in the next few years. The whole separation movement is back (even though it's well hidden) and with it comes and increase in desire to enforce language laws (that's very out in the open right now). You think the NHL wants to get involved with that stuff? Hell no.

Separation has not been a real topic for years.

That's the Desmarais playing politics behind the scenes because they are close to Bettman and do not want Quebecor to gain that edge. It is dirty business.

 

[MNNumbers]

Separation has not been a real topic for years.

That's the Desmarais playing politics behind the scenes because they are close to Bettman and do not want Quebecor to gain that edge. It is dirty business.

I'm not so familiar, SDJ, so please inform me as to the possible intentions of the Desmarais family? Are they connected to a possible purchase in Ottawa? Or, do they have reason to want the management rights to the Centre Videotron? What's their angle? Thanks

 

[Bondurant]

Sarver has no money and tried to sell some time ago despite what he says publically. My issue with ASU is that the west valley people will use the same traffic excuse east valley people make now. A place over talking stick or somewhere else in downtown Phoenix will be better for the market. It's more central.

It is my understanding that the majority of Coyotes season ticket holders and fans in general are in the East Valley. Right now there isn't a place to build downtown. Whatever little bits of land there is is being used for apartment/condo construction.

Coyotes need to worry about putting a good team on the ice first. In this market when a team wins more fans will come. I have been going to Coyotes games for a decade and there was a noticeable increase in fans these past 2 seasons. Focus on something that can be obtained now and work on the arena situation in the background.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I'm not so familiar, SDJ, so please inform me as to the possible intentions of the Desmarais family? Are they connected to a possible purchase in Ottawa? Or, do they have reason to want the management rights to the Centre Videotron? What's their angle? Thanks

No problem.

Desmarais = Power Corp = Gesca = media empire. Political puppet masters behind the scenes (helped Sarkozy in France, control the Liberal party at the Federal and Provincial levels). Friends with Bettman.

Quebecor = media empire. Owned by a known separatist.

So, yes, there is a political angle, but it is mostly a tool to make sure Quebecor does not acquire a team and gains an edge in the media war. Would not be surprised to see the Desmarais swoop in if they can... BUT Labeaume (Quebec City mayor) is much closer "politically" to Péladeau.

Old rivalries.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Separation has not been a real topic for years.

That's the Desmarais playing politics behind the scenes because they are close to Bettman and do not want Quebecor to gain that edge. It is dirty business.

I'm going to try and limit the political discussion but as I said above, the separation angle is hidden behind a few different things, namely the various legislation that the current government have passed. Think two or three steps down the road and you'll be able to see where things are headed.

As far as the Desmarais stuff go, I honestly have no idea. But I do believe Miller when he says that PKP and his politics are the biggest reason Quebec isn't getting a team unless they're so desperate they have no other choice. Whether that's influenced by the media related politics I have no idea but I'm going to choose to take it as is given that it makes 100% sense.

 

[Pandemonia]

If they wanted to move the Yotes they would have. They're not going.

Wanna bet someone in March, 2011 was saying "If they wanted to move the Thrashers they would have. Theyre not going." ?

 

[MNNumbers]

Your kidding, right? That would be like books and books worth.

Actually, he's not kidding....

The actual number of 1000 post threads included in the Coyotes saga went to about 130 or so, as I remember. And, there were many others, as he said, which were not part of the mega thread, but were about the Yotes as well.

It was a fascinating time....So many things happened.

ETA: 133 threads in the main mega thread.

 

[Pandemonia]

There is no economic case for a team in Quebec. They were a fringe option when the Canadian dollar was at parity, but now would just be a revenue sharing suck. It's also very questionable whether any Canadian entity could come up with the $850m that is the going price for an NHL franchise right now. The NHL isn't going to move a team from one struggling market to another. They have better options in places like Portland, Houston, etc.

Meet David Thompson of Toronto, current worth north of 17 billion dollars.

Okay, so he probly wont wanna own two teams. So maybe you'd consider Joseph Tsai, worth 14 billion, Galen Weston worth 13 billion, Eddie Rogers worth 12 billion, the Saputo family worth 10 billion, Garrett Camp worth 9 billion, Paul Desmarais worth 8 billion, the Irving brothers worth 8 billion, James Richardson worth 7 billion, Jim Pattison another 7 billion.

These aren't entities, mostly theyre families. If the Irvings can own half the Maritimes, they could buy a NHL franchise real easy.

 

[Pandemonia]

I'd love to hear some kind of economic case for a Quebec franchise. I really would.

Winnipeg only got a team because the Thrashers literally had nowhere to play and the owners were threatening to push the team into bankruptcy. And with the Canadian dollar at par and a low purchase price the economics made sense.

Mayor Lebeaume seems to be trying to deflect from the fact that he saddled his city with a massive white elephant that they'll be paying off for decades.

This is supposed to be a serious discussion of hockey business and yet the fantasies around a Quebec City team are so prevalent.

Canadian dollar was last at par with us in 2008. Thrashers moved in 2011.

Fantasies around a Quebec team are probably more fun than fantasies around their dollar.

 

[Pandemonia]

Actually, he's not kidding....

The actual number of 1000 post threads included in the Coyotes saga went to about 130 or so, as I remember. And, there were many others, as he said, which were not part of the mega thread, but were about the Yotes as well.

It was a fascinating time....So many things happened.

ETA: 133 threads in the main mega thread.

How do I get into that treasure trove please ?

 

[Stumbledore]

The “owners“ propped up Winnipeg this year. Be careful of the rabbit hole you pick.

Aside from Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates (who’s planning to build a model city development in the west valley), who are your pandemic proof candidates??

That's kind of disingenuous, Legend. The owners prop up more than a dozen teams every year. That's how revenue sharing works.

 

[Stumbledore]

I still believe in what Gord Miller said on the radio two or three years ago on TSN 690 in Montreal. We can talk about the economics and the American TV footprint all we want but those things are to some degree used as a smokescreen to one of the things that's at the heart of their apprehension to putting a team in Quebec which is; the NHL does not want to go to Quebec so long as PKP is involved and/or the nature of the political discourse in the province. I know we try not to delve in to politics in here but in this case it's unavoidable. Right now the political climate in Quebec is not good and it's only going to get worse in the next few years. The whole separation movement is back (even though it's well hidden) and with it comes and increase in desire to enforce language laws (that's very out in the open right now). You think the NHL wants to get involved with that stuff? Hell no.

Bingo!

Smartest comment in this whole thread.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Bingo!

Smartest comment in this whole thread.

There is NO Separatist discourse in the Province. Péladeau is not in politics anymore. The PQ is all but dead.

I mean, that's an excuse at this point. Not reality.

 

[Ernie]

Canadian dollar was last at par with us in 2008. Thrashers moved in 2011.

Fantasies around a Quebec team are probably more fun than fantasies around their dollar.

ACKSHUALLY, in May 2011 the Canadian dollar was above the US dollar and remained within +/- 5 cents of parity until late 2013. It is currently at 0.76, first reaching that level in mid 2015.

If you can't tell why a business would struggle in this environment when most of their expenses are in USD but virtually all their income is in CAD, maybe you should do more reading here than posting for a while.

This is not rocket science; a balance sheet like this should be easy to understand. When you have a marginally profitable business that sees it's revenues remain the same but its costs increase by 30%, you no longer have a viable business. Of course revenue sharing softens that by a great deal, but why would other NHL owners (particularly other low revenue teams) want to add a team that is dipping into revenue sharing on day 1?

Also, with the current valuation of franchises, the amount of profit the team would have to generate to justify the return on investment would be $40-$50 million CAD. Quebecor would be endangering the entire company by buying a franchise at the going price.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Atlanta is an important southern US TV market. The franchise moved to a small Canadian City (by comparison) because it just wasn’t financially viable in Atlanta. The Coyotes are bleeding money, and have been since they started. The Covid crisis is hurting a lot of teams. The league is suffering. They need to control the immediate bleeding. Moving the Coyotes to Quebec City controls the bleeding, and is a far better option the contraction.

The Red Wings and Blue Jackets have said they have no interest in going back to western conference. Moving a western conference team to the eastern time zone is not ideal.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The only reason why Atlanta moved is because their OWNERS wanted them out of the arena. NHL had not other option and Winnipeg was the only market that was ready to take them. Winnipeg got lucky timing, basically.

Coyotes are still in Arizona because the landlord want them in their arena. If it had been the same thing in Atlanta, the NHL would have been as stubborn as they are with the Coyotes.

If it comes to contraction vs moving the franchise, sure, they'll move the franchise.

Not really true. The City of Glendale voided the long-term lease with the Coyotes. Well I think that's how it went down - but in any event the Yotes don't have a long term lease. They just lease the Gila River Arena year by year. Which is hardly ideal. The City wants the team to stay, but doesn't want to pay to subsidize them (which they were doing for a few years). Which makes the Yotes mobile - if they (and the NHL) want them to be.


You know, the Mayor kind of has to say that QC is still in the mix. Otherwise they built a very expensive NHL-quality arena based on the sweet nothings of Gary Bettman and now have nothing to show for it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is not rocket science; a balance sheet like this should be easy to understand. When you have a marginally profitable business that sees it's revenues remain the same but its costs increase by 30%, you no longer have a viable business. Of course revenue sharing softens that by a great deal, but why would other NHL owners (particularly other low revenue teams) want to add a team that is dipping into revenue sharing on day 1?

This, and particularly in this environment.

The theory that COVID will finally push the NHL over the edge to allow a relocation of [Arizon/Florida/whoever] kind of makes sense.

The theory that this will result in a move to Quebec City doesn't make sense. That would just be re-branding the same problem they already had.

 

[TheLegend]

That's kind of disingenuous, Legend. The owners prop up more than a dozen teams every year. That's how revenue sharing works.

I know. Doesn’t even bother me that they do. The Peg is fine.

Just getting a point across that the Coyotes being “propped up by the league” is a bad talking point on its own.

 

[Stumbledore]

I know. Doesn’t even bother me that they do. The Peg is fine.

Just getting a point across that the Coyotes being “propped up by the league” is a bad talking point on its own.

C'mon, it's the only thing that unites westerners with Torontonians!

 

[TheLegend]

C'mon, it's the only thing that unites westerners with Torontonians!

Don't get me started........

 

[Yukon Joe]

This, and particularly in this environment.

The theory that COVID will finally push the NHL over the edge to allow a relocation of [Arizon/Florida/whoever] kind of makes sense.

The theory that this will result in a move to Quebec City doesn't make sense. That would just be re-branding the same problem they already had.

The way it could maybe go down is that the owners are going to lose a lot of money this year. If an owner (who also lost a lot of money in their every-day business this year) then throws up their hands and says they have sell ASAP. No one else in the city is interested but (and this is also a big if) PKP and Quebecor are able to pony up some cash for a whopping relocation fee.