PWHL Coming to Pittsburgh March 17 as Part of “PWHL Takeover Weekend"

[Sideline]

I don’t think it’s hypocritical to wish the women the best of success while at the same time criticize the on-ice product.

If I were in town I’d certainly go, but unlike the international women’s games the intensity level just isn’t there yet, or to be fair it doesn’t manifest itself on a tv broadcast. The talent is there, but rivalries and storylines that drive the NHL to some degree take years to develop.

If you've ever practiced or scrimmaged with high level women you know the on ice product is roughly equivalent to competitive U15 Boys travel hockey.

There's a Junior B team in my town that charges like 5 dollars a ticket for admission. Those guys are playing significantly higher level hockey then even Olympic level women.

The hard truth is the PWHL won't succeed based on the quality of the on ice product. If it appeals to a different segment of the population to watch because they want to support a women's league then more power too them.

Anyone posting on this forum is the definition of a hardcore hockey fan, but the only hockey I've ever made a point of watching at a PWHL level of competition was when I was supporting friends and family members playing minor hockey.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The level of play in women's hockey will never improve to the degree it needs to for the PWHL to draw in more fans until they fix the grassroots level. They need to invest in GIRL'S hockey first and foremost, so that these girls get the same sort of coaching/training as their boy counterparts.

The reason the level of play in women's hockey is so low is because, comparatively speaking, they simply don't practice/get coached/train near to the level during their formative years. The reason NHL players are so good is part natural talent, but also the insane amount of training and coaching they've gotten since they were 5 or 6 years old. Girls/women don't have that.

Look at other sports where the women's game is on par (or relatively in terms of excitement) with the men's game, like tennis. Why? Because the professional women all trained and were coached at an extremely high level when they were little girls. Serena Williams, for instance, has put more time, money and high level training into her formative years than any of the female hockey players do.

Until there's improvement in the training and coaching of girls in the 7-15 age range on par with the boy's game, you won't see anything resembling high end hockey in the women's pro game.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I'm just happy to see hockey in person again. Four tickets to this is about equivalent to 1.2 tickets to see the Pens.

Edit: actually the Penguins ticket prices have gone down significantly since last I checked. Still.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The level of play in women's hockey will never improve to the degree it needs to for the PWHL to draw in more fans until they fix the grassroots level. They need to invest in GIRL'S hockey first and foremost, so that these girls get the same sort of coaching/training as their boy counterparts.

The reason the level of play in women's hockey is so low is because, comparatively speaking, they simply don't practice/get coached/train near to the level during their formative years. The reason NHL players are so good is part natural talent, but also the insane amount of training and coaching they've gotten since they were 5 or 6 years old. Girls/women don't have that.

Look at other sports where the women's game is on par (or relatively in terms of excitement) with the men's game, like tennis. Why? Because the professional women all trained and were coached at an extremely high level when they were little girls. Serena Williams, for instance, has put more time, money and high level training into her formative years than any of the female hockey players do.

Until there's improvement in the training and coaching of girls in the 7-15 age range on par with the boy's game, you won't see anything resembling high end hockey in the women's pro game.

Having watched a lot of youth hockey since moving to Europe, it's wild to me how much more developed youth sports are (in sports that Czechs are good at) here than in the US. There's auditions for pee wee hockey here. Even my judo club has a competitive admissions process for our U10s through U20s.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Having watched a lot of youth hockey since moving to Europe, it's wild to me how much more developed youth sports are (in sports that Czechs are good at) here than in the US. There's auditions for pee wee hockey here. Even my judo club has a competitive admissions process for our U10s through U20s.

You joined a judo club with 10 year olds? I'm picturing you as Kosmo Kramer doing KaraTAY versus children and dominating.

 

[HandshakeLine]

You joined a judo club with 10 year olds? I'm picturing you as Kosmo Kramer doing KaraTAY versus children and dominating.

Hahaha, no but all the black belts take turns helping with the kids and beginners classes, if we're not competing. My competition days are way behind me, so I spend a lot of time teaching kids not to break their arms, and yelling at beginners to bend their knees, not their backs.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Ever since I found out that @HandshakeLine does judo, this is how I've been picturing him:

 

[HandshakeLine]

Ever since I found out that @HandshakeLine does judo, this is how I've been picturing him:

Sleeves too short for regulation IJF matches, fro too sexy for the club. It’s hard out here.

 

[Dessloch]

The level of play in women's hockey will never improve to the degree it needs to for the PWHL to draw in more fans until they fix the grassroots level. They need to invest in GIRL'S hockey first and foremost, so that these girls get the same sort of coaching/training as their boy counterparts.

The reason the level of play in women's hockey is so low is because, comparatively speaking, they simply don't practice/get coached/train near to the level during their formative years. The reason NHL players are so good is part natural talent, but also the insane amount of training and coaching they've gotten since they were 5 or 6 years old. Girls/women don't have that.

Look at other sports where the women's game is on par (or relatively in terms of excitement) with the men's game, like tennis. Why? Because the professional women all trained and were coached at an extremely high level when they were little girls. Serena Williams, for instance, has put more time, money and high level training into her formative years than any of the female hockey players do.

Until there's improvement in the training and coaching of girls in the 7-15 age range on par with the boy's game, you won't see anything resembling high end hockey in the women's pro game.

Have you ever considered that hockey and tennis are not even similar sports with a complete difference size of area the game is played on? Tennis has a smaller area where you move around, its more static, hitting a tennis ball requires less force than shooting a hockey puck!

I am not sure it has so much to do with the reasons you are giving. Would the product be better if we had 2 or 3 times as many girls playing? Sure, but I reckon that would be more because we would find more Taylor Heises and Marie-Philip Poulins rather than the whole game being completely transformed.

The players today are full time professionals, I think its more to the with physics man vs women than its to do with the reasons you are citing, which I agree with but dont think it would have as much effect as you believe.

My father played tennis with a friend for 45 years and it was pretty entertaining to watch even at age 50-60,, they were trading baseline shots forever, and it they would have played hockey they would have looked really bad. I dont think you can compare tennis with hockey like that.

 

[Sideline]

Have you ever considered that hockey and tennis are not even similar sports with a complete difference size of area the game is played on? Tennis has a smaller area where you move around, it more static, hitting a tennis ball requires less force than shooting a hockey puck!

I am not sure it has so much to do with the reasons you are giving. Would the product be better if we had 2 or 3 times as many girls playing? Sure, but I reckon that would be more because we would find more Taylor Heises and Marie-Philip Poulins rather than the whole game being completely transformed.

The players today are full time professionals, I think its more to the with physics man vs women than its to do with the reasons you are citing, which I agree with but dont think it would have as much effect as you believe.

My father played tennis with a friend for 45 years and it was pretty entertaining to watch even at age 50-60,, they were trading baseline shots forever, and it they would have played hockey they would have looked really bad. I dont think you can compare tennis with hockey like that.

As great as the Williams sisters are, they once said they said they could beat any man ranked outside the top 200. The men's world number 203 accepted the challenge and smoked them.

There are very few athletic endeavours where the best women are competitive with the best men. This is true in sports where there is lots of money and training like tennis and in the Olympic sports where there is very little money for either men or women.

If women's sport is going to succeed it won't be by marketing the competition as world class. However, you can still have product that is more entertaining or a better value for money.

Watching the 90s Devils trap all game on a Tuesday night in December isn't my idea of entertainment. That was the standard for world class hockey in the era. A women's league that had a style more like the post lockout NHL at the start of the Crosby Ovechkin era would have been way more fun to watch.

 

[wej20]

If you've ever practiced or scrimmaged with high level women you know the on ice product is roughly equivalent to competitive U15 Boys travel hockey.

There's a Junior B team in my town that charges like 5 dollars a ticket for admission. Those guys are playing significantly higher level hockey then even Olympic level women.

The hard truth is the PWHL won't succeed based on the quality of the on ice product. If it appeals to a different segment of the population to watch because they want to support a women's league then more power too them.

Anyone posting on this forum is the definition of a hardcore hockey fan, but the only hockey I've ever made a point of watching at a PWHL level of competition was when I was supporting friends and family members playing minor hockey.

Always find this a BS arguement. Manny Pacquiao is one of the greatest boxers of all time but he'd get absolutely starched by some journeyman heavyweight because of the size difference. Doesn't make him any less impressive.

 

[Sideline]

Always find this a BS arguement. Manny Pacquiao is one of the greatest boxers of all time but he'd get absolutely starched by some journeyman heavyweight because of the size difference. Doesn't make him any less impressive.

To each his own I guess. I don't get excited watching stuff I can see at any local rink. Pacquiao might get wrecked by any random pro heavyweight, but I can't go to my local gym and see 10 guys that can do what Pacquiao did.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Always find this a BS arguement. Manny Pacquiao is one of the greatest boxers of all time but he'd get absolutely starched by some journeyman heavyweight because of the size difference. Doesn't make him any less impressive.

I think it also depends on the sport. I've been on the mat with Olympic-level judoka of both sexes (including one of the reigning gold medal heavyweights) and I can say that, while I have a size and weight advantage over female olympians, that isn't enough to overcome their skill (and I'm pretty good as far as amateurs go). And most high level grappling tournaments have open weight classes at least in some divisions.

But that said, size and weight (or reach and weight more specifically) are huge advantages, especially for combat sports. I'm not entirely sure about hockey.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

But that said, size and weight (or reach and weight more specifically) are huge advantages, especially for combat sports. I'm not entirely sure about hockey.

Having a body designed or evolved to give birth and feed young humans is a disadvantage that women will never overcome when it comes to athletics.

That doesn’t mean that women’s sports can’t be enjoyable, or that women aren’t capable of great athletic feats that eclipse the above-average male.

What hurts women’s hockey is the low stakes; fans just don’t have a rooting interest or players they can identify with or love to hate. That takes years if not decades to build.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Having a body designed or evolved to give birth and feed young humans is a disadvantage that women will never overcome when it comes to athletics.

Nah, it depends on the sport again. Women are far, far better gymnasts due to flexibility and ability to tolerate pain. The way women's hip joints work means they tend to be far better at certain kind of throws in judo than men. Anecdotally, I've heard similar things from karateka regarding kicking in kyokushin and other full contact styles. Either way, its up to the athlete to adapt the sport to their bodies, not the other way around. Got short arms? Don't box like Ali, box like Tyson. Hip joint isn't flexible? Well then figure out a different setup for hane goshi. Got super flexible joints? So on and so forth.

Again, bodies are part of the equation, not the entirety of it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

And to make it clear, it's not like there are no difference between the sexes, there obviously are. But getting smashed into the ground by a 6'2" 220 lb. guy doing a harai goshi (figure 1) hurts no more or no less than getting smashed into the ground by a 5'4" 120 lb. girl doing a fast drop seoi nage (figure 2).

What changes when I'm doing randori with a female judoka isn't the strength even, it's the angle of attack-- having the height advantage means I'm open for a ton of other throws that don't come up when I fight guys my own size, while for my opponent, it means they have to watch out for my size and reach. It's one of the reasons all of the major national team training programs encourage mixed sex randori (sparring)-- it just makes you a more complete competitor and a more well-rounded judoka.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

Nah, it depends on the sport again. Women are far, far better gymnasts due to flexibility and ability to tolerate pain. The way women's hip joints work means they tend to be far better at certain kind of throws in judo than men. Anecdotally, I've heard similar things from karateka regarding kicking in kyokoushin and other full contact styles. Either way, its up to the athlete to adapt the sport to their bodies, not the other way around. Got short arms? Don't box like Ali, box like Tyson. Hip joint isn't flexible? Well then figure out a different setup for hane goshi. Got super flexible joints? So on and so forth.

Again, bodies are part of the equation, not the entirety of it.

I disagree on gymnastics. Can Simone Biles even last 30 seconds on the pommel horse or attempt the iron cross on the rings?

The events for the women highlight artistry and dance more than physical strength and stamina. Those are far more important to hockey than pure flexibility unless you play goaltender.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Glad Pittsburgh is getting a game. If it is a success, I am pretty sure they will get a team.

Let's be honest, it is all about marketing. If they market it well, the league will succeed. So far they have marketed it well and the league has been a success at the gate.

I have been watching most Montreal games and even attended one, it is a good show. I do not mind that the "level" is not the best, these women still give a good show.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Have you ever considered that hockey and tennis are not even similar sports with a complete difference size of area the game is played on? Tennis has a smaller area where you move around, its more static, hitting a tennis ball requires less force than shooting a hockey puck!

I am not sure it has so much to do with the reasons you are giving. Would the product be better if we had 2 or 3 times as many girls playing? Sure, but I reckon that would be more because we would find more Taylor Heises and Marie-Philip Poulins rather than the whole game being completely transformed.

The players today are full time professionals, I think its more to the with physics man vs women than its to do with the reasons you are citing, which I agree with but dont think it would have as much effect as you believe.

My father played tennis with a friend for 45 years and it was pretty entertaining to watch even at age 50-60,, they were trading baseline shots forever, and it they would have played hockey they would have looked really bad. I dont think you can compare tennis with hockey like that.

My point is the top women tennis players have put in way more time into training and practice than their equivalent top hockey women. You see these girls attending elite tennis camps where they're literally training 5 or 6 hours a day. Girls at a similar age in hockey, for instance, don't do that. I personally went to school and know quite well Jayna Hefford. I can tell you that she wasn't training multiple hours per day, every day, when she was in high school.

I'm not saying that if girls trained in hockey as much as the men, then they'd be AS GOOD as the men. I'm saying that the quality of women's hockey would be a lot higher than it currently is.

 

[TooManyHumans]

It was on the Pens channel last night and I watched again and was again entertained. Nurse is a hell of a player. Personally, I can enjoy watching a good competition between skilled players even if they are not the absolutely best the world has ever seen. Hell, I even watch the Pirates on the regular and they aren't even skilled or putting out good competition.

 

[Dessloch]

Expansion to Detroit? Smashed the previous PWHL USA attendance record without even having a team

RESPECT! From observing plenty of fanbases I would say Detroits are the most welcoming towards having a team of what I have seen!

Game in Pittsburgh on today sunday, lets see what what attendance we can get in!

 

[BigEezyE22]

The level of play in women's hockey will never improve to the degree it needs to for the PWHL to draw in more fans until they fix the grassroots level. They need to invest in GIRL'S hockey first and foremost, so that these girls get the same sort of coaching/training as their boy counterparts.

The reason the level of play in women's hockey is so low is because, comparatively speaking, they simply don't practice/get coached/train near to the level during their formative years. The reason NHL players are so good is part natural talent, but also the insane amount of training and coaching they've gotten since they were 5 or 6 years old. Girls/women don't have that.

Look at other sports where the women's game is on par (or relatively in terms of excitement) with the men's game, like tennis. Why? Because the professional women all trained and were coached at an extremely high level when they were little girls. Serena Williams, for instance, has put more time, money and high level training into her formative years than any of the female hockey players do.

Until there's improvement in the training and coaching of girls in the 7-15 age range on par with the boy's game, you won't see anything resembling high end hockey in the women's pro game.

Need more rinks. Only so much ice out there

 

[Dessloch]

The PWHL Can't Wait for Game in Pittsburgh | Pittsburgh Penguins

Pictured above: Marie-Philip Poulin Last month, the Professional Women’s Hockey League (PWHL) set a new women’s hockey attendance record in its inaugural season with a sold-out crowd of 19,285 at Scotiabank Arena – home of the Maple Leafs – to watch Toronto versus Montreal. It was incredibly...

www.nhl.com

 

[Randy Butternubs]

We're about to head downtown to get brunch and then go to the game. Not sure who I'll be cheering for but I fully expect to have more fun watching this as opposed to the Penguins.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Just don't let them be Sullivan'd.