Putting A Lid On Lidstrom's Legacy

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The OP would rather build around Scott Stevens than Lidstrom? Stevens was a one-dimensional player the last 10 years of his career. I'd hope you have some good players around him at that stage of his career if you're going to "build around him".

Eh.. I think you have to build around Lidstrom over Stevens too... but that "one-dimensional" Stevens was the most important skater, and IMO most important overall playoff performer, of a team that won 3 Cups.

 

[sr edler]

What if Pronger spent his whole career in Arizona?

 

[Neutrinos]

What if Pronger spent his whole career in Arizona?

We saw what he did in his lone year with Edmonton

 

[sr edler]

We saw what he did in his lone year with Edmonton

Small sample size plus he had Michael Peca helping him.

 

[MXD]

Plus Edmonton isn't Arizona.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Lidstrom is pretty firmly in the 8-12 range, and really can be considered as the defining line between all time legends and those that were great.

What I mean is:

He is not as good as Orr, Robinson, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Potvin
He is a step up from Leetch, Coffey, Pronger, Chelios, Stevens

 

[Neutrinos]

Lidstrom is pretty firmly in the 8-12 range, and really can be considered as the defining line between all time legends and those that were great.

What I mean is:

He is not as good as Orr, Robinson, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Potvin
He is a step up from Leetch, Coffey, Pronger, Chelios, Stevens

This ranking isn't based on actual on-ice performance though

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

This ranking isn't based on actual on-ice performance though

Sustained greatness outweighs a 1-2 year spike of greatness surrounded by very good

 

[quoipourquoi]

Obviously I have told all of you a time or two that I find Nicklas Lidstrom to be overrated (more of a #30-35 player than a #15-25 player), so I'll sit here in my wrongness and be wrong, but I'll raise just a few points:

Yes, I think Chris Pronger bridged the gap a little despite the Norris Trophy disparity. At the times of his 2000-01 and 2006-07 injuries, he had his teams in 1st place there was more of a Pronger/Fleury/Sakic or a Pronger/Jagr vibe for the Hart at mid-season. But Chris Pronger is a prolific shot-blocker, and Nicklas Lidstrom is not (usually 3-4 on his own team), and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know why blocking shots can be detrimental to the completion of an 82-game season. And I think this (shot blocking) more than some Wolverine-esque healing power kept Lidstrom around ~80 games.

Pronger's 2001 and 2007 teams went from .725/.720 records with him to .468/.469 records without him (essentially an 118-point team vs. a 77-point team with sample sizes of 117 and 48 games). In the playoffs, the Ducks went on to win, while the Blues became the only team from 1996-2002 to break the Colorado/Dallas/Detroit stranglehold on the Western Conference Finals. More than that, he has little or nothing to show from his Norris record in Edmonton and Philadelphia, when his reputation may have never been higher than those Summers.

Granted, it's just 4 seasons, but the three Norris + one 2nd Team selection versus one 2nd Team selection over 2001, 2006, 2007, and 2010 is not at all reflective of Lidstrom and Pronger's value relative to each other. If offered 366 games of Lidstrom or 360 games of Pronger (the actual season and playoff count), give me Pronger.

Those four seasons and three Norris trophies are just a drop in the bucket of Lidstrom though. Nicklas Lidstrom was better offensively and more consistent (though playing on the Detroit Red Wings with that many Selke and Norris teammates would probably go a long way to masquerade any down years).

But if he was as great defensively as advertised, I'd like to think that roster would have challenged for more Jennings than they did (winning in 1996, when Lidstrom was the third-best defenseman on the team; and 2008, when Lidstrom was the third-best player on the planet). 2002, for instance - you have Lidstrom joined by Bowman, Chelios, Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, Datsyuk, and Hasek; but an habitual run-and-gun team goes into lock-down mode and takes the Jennings by 18 GA?

Certainly the best offensive defenseman of his era, but it's an acknowledgment that means less and less as we see that there was a valley in that era of true offensive talents - inflating his value in a strict positional comparison. Not a big splash internationally, splitting honors on defense with Kenny Jonsson in 2006 (Jonsson winning Best Defenseman; Lidstrom joining Timonen on the All-Star Team). And in some years, you would have a dozen forwards/goaltenders raising their hands when asking who is better than Lidstrom's Norris/All-Star competition. Rob Blake in 1998. Ray Bourque in 2001. 1st Team All-Star Sandis Ozolinsh in 1997. It's not exactly the toughest gold star to receive, and if you take a great forward from the same era, they'd rack 'em up against that competition too - something we put to the test in a Forsberg/Lidstrom discussion a few years back.

If every year was 2000 or 2008, I'm all on-board with Lidstrom=Bourque (minus 1). But I find being in the mix with names like Brodeur, Clarke, Dryden, and Trottier is more appropriate for him.

 

[Hobnobs]

Obviously I have told all of you a time or two that I find Nicklas Lidstrom to be overrated (more of a #30-35 player than a #15-25 player), so I'll sit here in my wrongness and be wrong, but I'll raise just a few points:

Yes, I think Chris Pronger bridged the gap a little despite the Norris Trophy disparity. At the times of his 2000-01 and 2006-07 injuries, he had his teams in 1st place there was more of a Pronger/Fleury/Sakic or a Pronger/Jagr vibe for the Hart at mid-season. But Chris Pronger is a prolific shot-blocker, and Nicklas Lidstrom is not (usually 3-4 on his own team), and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know why blocking shots can be detrimental to the completion of an 82-game season. And I think this (shot blocking) more than some Wolverine-esque healing power kept Lidstrom around ~80 games.

Pronger's 2001 and 2007 teams went from .725/.720 records with him to .468/.469 records without him (essentially an 118-point team vs. a 77-point team with sample sizes of 117 and 48 games). In the playoffs, the Ducks went on to win, while the Blues became the only team from 1996-2002 to break the Colorado/Dallas/Detroit stranglehold on the Western Conference Finals. More than that, he has little or nothing to show from his Norris record in Edmonton and Philadelphia, when his reputation may have never been higher than those Summers.

Granted, it's just 4 seasons, but the three Norris + one 2nd Team selection versus one 2nd Team selection over 2001, 2006, 2007, and 2010 is not at all reflective of Lidstrom and Pronger's value relative to each other. If offered 366 games of Lidstrom or 360 games of Pronger (the actual season and playoff count), give me Pronger.

Those four seasons and three Norris trophies are just a drop in the bucket of Lidstrom though. Nicklas Lidstrom was better offensively and more consistent (though playing on the Detroit Red Wings with that many Selke and Norris teammates would probably go a long way to masquerade any down years).

But if he was as great defensively as advertised, I'd like to think that roster would have challenged for more Jennings than they did (winning in 1996, when Lidstrom was the third-best defenseman on the team; and 2008, when Lidstrom was the third-best player on the planet). 2002, for instance - you have Lidstrom joined by Bowman, Chelios, Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, Datsyuk, and Hasek; but an habitual run-and-gun team goes into lock-down mode and takes the Jennings by 18 GA?

Certainly the best offensive defenseman of his era, but it's an acknowledgment that means less and less as we see that there was a valley in that era of true offensive talents - inflating his value in a strict positional comparison. Not a big splash internationally, splitting honors on defense with Kenny Jonsson in 2006 (Jonsson winning Best Defenseman; Lidstrom joining Timonen on the All-Star Team). And in some years, you would have a dozen forwards/goaltenders raising their hands when asking who is better than Lidstrom's Norris/All-Star competition. Rob Blake in 1998. Ray Bourque in 2001. 1st Team All-Star Sandis Ozolinsh in 1997. It's not exactly the toughest gold star to receive, and if you take a great forward from the same era, they'd rack 'em up against that competition too - something we put to the test in a Forsberg/Lidstrom discussion a few years back.

If every year was 2000 or 2008, I'm all on-board with Lidstrom=Bourque (minus 1). But I find being in the mix with names like Brodeur, Clarke, Dryden, and Trottier is more appropriate for him.

We could compare them in best on best tournaments as well. Wait, that would mean Lidtröm runs away completely. Why did you only bring up Lidströms international record but not Prongers?

 

[quoipourquoi]

We could compare them in best on best tournaments as well. Wait, that would mean Lidtröm runs away completely. Why did you only bring up Lidströms international record but not Prongers?

Because I'm not saying Chris Pronger is as good as Nicklas Lidstrom, but that Nicklas Lidstrom probably would have stood out more if he was a #15-25 level player.

 

[Neutrinos]

Sustained greatness outweighs a 1-2 year spike of greatness surrounded by very good

Disregarding Pronger's glory days in St. Louis, he went on to lead 3 different teams to the Finals in a span of 5 years

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Because I'm not saying Chris Pronger is as good as Nicklas Lidstrom, but that Nicklas Lidstrom probably would have stood out more if he was a #15-25 level player.

you better said the point I was trying to make.

He compares favorably to players just below him in ranking, but doesn't compare favorably to those above him. He's kinda on an island.

 

[Hobnobs]

Disregarding Pronger's glory days in St. Louis, he went on to lead 3 different teams to the Finals in a span of 5 years

Strange he couldnt do that with the Blues. Funny how you say lead his teams when Ducks still won games without him. Its a nice narrative but it doesnt change anything.

Because I'm not saying Chris Pronger is as good as Nicklas Lidstrom, but that Nicklas Lidstrom probably would have stood out more if he was a #15-25 level player.

Would still be cool if you continued the comparison.

 

[Neutrinos]

Strange he couldnt do that with the Blues. Funny how you say lead his teams when Ducks still won games without him. Its a nice narrative but it doesnt change anything.

Pronger missed 2 games, yet still managed to finish tied with Perry and Selanne for 2nd on the team in playoff scoring - just 2 points behind Getzlaf

Niedermayer - who was awarded the Conn Smythe - finished with 11 points in 21 games and was only +2

Pronger had 15 points in 19 games and was +10

 

[quoipourquoi]

Joe Sakic vs. Nicklas Lidstrom's All-Star Competition:

1995
1 - Coffey
Sakic
1 - Chelios
2 - Bourque
2 - Murphy

1996
Sakic
1 - Chelios
1 - Bourque
2 - Leetch
2 - Konstantinov

1997
1 - Leetch
Sakic
1 - Ozolinsh
2 - Chelios
2 - Stevens

1999
1 - MacInnis
Sakic
2 - Bourque
2 - Desjardins

2000
1 - Pronger
Sakic
2 - Blake
2 - Desjardins

2001
Sakic
1 - Bourque
2 - Blake
2 - Stevens

2002
Sakic
1 - Chelios
2 - Blake
2 - Gonchar

2004
Sakic
1 - Niedermayer
1 - Chara
2 - Pronger
2 - McCabe

2007
Sakic
1 - Niedermayer
2 - Pronger
2 - Boyle


Is it unrealistic to suggest that Joe Sakic - if held against the same competition for end-of-the-season accolades as Nicklas Lidstrom - would have the equivalent of nine 1st Team selections on Defense? Plus a 10th in 1991 prior to Nicklas Lidstrom joining the NHL to equal Lidstrom's 10?

I think Sakic is a better comparison for Lidstrom than a Jaromir Jagr or a Ray Bourque. But I don't think anyone would have Sakic in their top-20 or anything - even when adding in those playoffs.

 

[Hobnobs]

Pronger missed 2 games, yet still managed to finish tied with Perry and Selanne for 2nd on the team in playoff scoring - just 2 points behind Getzlaf

Niedermayer - who was award the Conn Smythe - finished with 11 points in 21 games and was only +2

Pronger had 15 points in 19 games and was +10

And Niedermeyer is relevant, how now?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Strange he couldnt do that with the Blues. Funny how you say lead his teams when Ducks still won games without him. Its a nice narrative but it doesnt change anything.

Ducks did go 2-0 in the playoffs without him (and 3-1 without Giguere) despite the 6-7-3 record in the season in his absence, but they're also probably the best individual team of the era (come at me, 2013 Chicago Blackhawks).

As for the Blues...

Colorado vs. Detroit
Colorado vs. Detroit
Dallas vs. Detroit
Colorado vs. Dallas
Colorado vs. Dallas
Colorado vs. St. Louis
Colorado vs. Detroit

...come April, geography was not the friend of hundreds of Western Conference players.

Would still be cool if you continued the comparison.

Just saving my strength for when my Detroit brethren notice this thread. Really though, while I think Pronger balances the scales in those 4 seasons - three of Lidstrom's Norris Trophies - there's still a 4-1 edge outside of 2001, 2006, 2007, 2010. Even if you're a fan of 2002 Chelios, 2003 MacInnis, and anyone in the 2011 field, it's hard to go Pronger in anything but peak vs. peak.

 

[Neutrinos]

And Niedermeyer is relevant, how now?

It seems as though you're being confrontational rather than conversational, so I'm just gonna tap out on discussing things with you any further

 

[sr edler]

Disregarding Pronger's glory days in St. Louis, he went on to lead 3 different teams to the Finals in a span of 5 years

That Flyers team had some nice players up front with on-all-cylinders Mike Richards, run-and-gun Briere, up-and-coming Claude Giroux, scoring-depth-guy Jeff Carter, & soon-to-paycheck Ville Leino (ok, kidding), plus Timonen, Hartnell and Gagne. It was hardly a bunch of scrubs carried by single player.

 

[Hobnobs]

It seems as though you're being confrontational rather than conversational, so I'm just gonna tap out on discussing things with you any further

Because Im asking you a question or because you cant answer it?

 

[Hobnobs]

As for the Blues...

Colorado vs. Detroit
Colorado vs. Detroit
Dallas vs. Detroit
Colorado vs. Dallas
Colorado vs. Dallas
Colorado vs. St. Louis
Colorado vs. Detroit

...come April, geography was not the friend of hundreds of Western Conference players.

Still though, come april and you knew which team would start underperforming and my point was more that Pronger didnt get his teams to the finals. The teams got themselves to the finals and having Pronger obviously helped that. This isnt basketball though nor was Pronger, Hasek

 

[Neutrinos]

Because Im asking you a question or because you cant answer it?

The answer to your original question is obvious

You're not looking to understand my point of view, you're trying to discredit it

 

[Spirit of 67]

Recently I've been seeing Lidstrom's name included in some Top 20 and even some Top 10 lists, but why?

He had incredible longevity and consistency, no doubt, but he didn't peak as the best defenceman of his generation. IMO, Pronger was clearly more dominant when the 2 were at their best

But apart from that, Lidstrom was never once a finalist for the Hart trophy. Yes, it's subjective and voters often get things wrong, plus defencemen are rarely finalists, but a Top 10 - 20 player of all-time should've been nominated at least once, right? Lidstrom never was

For comparison sake, Bourque was a 2x runner up for the Hart and only lost to Messier in '90 by the slimmest of margins


So, yeah, if you rank players based on their resume, then sure, Lidstrom might actually crack the Top 10

But he was never considered the best player in the world, so based on actual on-ice performance, I just don't see an argument for it


If not for injuries to Pronger, for example, both he and Lidstrom could very well be sitting on 4 Norris trophies each

Pronger's prime:
47 points in 51 games in '01 (10th in voting)
4 points in 5 games in '03
59 points in 66 games in '07 (3rd in voting)


None of this is to say that Lidstrom wasn't a heck of a player, I just think he's been overrated in recent years given his Norris wins


I'd probably build around Scott Stevens instead of Lidstrom and if I could get 1564 relatively healthy games out of Pronger, I'm taking that over Lidstrom as well

He's the best defenseman I've seen in my 50 years. I'm just not quite old enough to have seen Orr and appreciate him.
The only other I'd have ahead of him would be Potvin.
I'm a huge Pronger fan and he'd be 3rd.

 

[Hobnobs]

The answer to your original question is obvious

You're not looking to understand my point of view, you're trying to discredit it

No Im looking to arguing it. Its kinda what we do here. Welcome to a forum.