Putting A Lid On Lidstrom's Legacy

[quoipourquoi]

To be honest, I had hoped we would have all moved past relitigating the 1998 and 2011 Norris Trophies - two seasons in which the best defenseman (whether it be Blake, Lidstrom, or Weber) probably wasn't even a top-10 player in the league.

It's essentially arguing over an accolade that means less than non-All-Star seasons from Peter Bondra and Ryan Kesler.

 

[danincanada]

To be honest, I had hoped we would have all moved past relitigating the 1998 and 2011 Norris Trophies - two seasons in which the best defenseman (whether it be Blake, Lidstrom, or Weber) probably wasn't even a top-10 player in the league.

It's essentially arguing over an accolade that means less than non-All-Star seasons from Peter Bondra and Ryan Kesler.

Please explain how you have determined a way to properly compare two-way defenders who play half the game and influence the game as much as they do versus high scoring forwards who play less and have far less of an influence on transition and the defensive side of the game. I saw your list earlier but there was no reasoning or anything to back up the names. If you're going to do this in the upcoming project please do it with all defenders other than Orr and attempt to downgrade every other defender in history if you feel they have so little value compared to forwards.

It's funny that, according to you, when Lidstrom dominated he wasn't a top 10 player in the league but when Pronger played similarly later in his career he had an argument for top player in the game for certain seasons and over multiple seasons/playoffs. I fail to see the big difference you espouse to.

 

[quoipourquoi]

It's funny that, according to you, when Lidstrom dominated he wasn't a top 10 player in the league but when Pronger played similarly later in his career he had an argument for top player in the game for certain seasons and over multiple seasons/playoffs. I fail to see the big difference you espouse to.

Do 1998 and 2011 fall under the umbrella of "when Lidstrom dominated"?

If so, I suggest you narrow your definition.

 

[danincanada]

Do 1998 and 2011 fall under the umbrella of "when Lidstrom dominated"?

If so, I suggest you narrow your definition.

I’m not talking about ‘11, I’m talking about his prime. He was 41 years old at the end of that season and I have no issue with someone questioning that Norris because he wasn’t the clear winner.

In ‘98 he was great and, again, his playoff performance should have cemented that. Konstantinov was gone so he took an even larger role. Bowman and Babcock were huge on matchups and Lidstrom was their guy for that so whenever possible he was up against the other teams best. What you were trying to portray earlier with comparing him to star forwards is not that simple. It also applies to other great two-way defenders. Was Bourque not that valuable because 10 forwards outscored him in any given season? That’s not how people viewed it and rightly so.

 

[Neutrinos]

I don't know if "snubbed" is the right word, but from 1996 to 2000, Lidstrom had five consecutive seasons where he played at a very high level without winning a Norris trophy. I'd likely pick 1998 as the worst choice winner, because Rob Blake didn't really deserve it.

Regarding Pronger, I feel like he's become overrated around here. If he was so good, how come he didn't win more Norris trophies or specifically take more Norris trophies away from Lidstrom?

This has already been addressed by me in the thread, so you'll find the answer if you go looking for it

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It still amazes me people continue to parrot this phrase regarding the 2011 Norris.

Well, he was 40 years old and there were at least 3 defensemen that clearly had better seasons.

Hell, he was -2, on his own team that was the worst of the regular 6 Dmen.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Stevens clearly had the higher offensive peak and was better in his own zone than Lidstrom as well. It's absurd that a defensemen of his caliber who is also the greatest open ice hitter of all time has zero Norris trophies and sometimes gets put outside the top 10 Dman to ever play the game.

That would be more like always outside of the top 10.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Well, he was 40 years old and there were at least 3 defensemen that clearly had better seasons.

Hell, he was -2, on his own team that was the worst of the regular 6 Dmen.

He was 40 and -2.

I'm convinced.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He was 40 and -2.

I'm convinced.

The issue isn't that he was 40.

The issue is he won the Norris Trophy.

 

[MadLuke]

Please explain how you have determined a way to properly compare two-way defenders who play half the game and influence the game as much as they do versus high scoring forwards who play less and have far less of an influence on transition and the defensive side of the game.

I imagine like when we try to compare forward to a goaltender, evaluating hockey player is all about calculating how many goal having them play instead of a replacement player (or an average nhler or the average first liner/starting goaltender) made a team score more goal for than get scored goal again.

More different the player, harder is the comparison, but it always goes down to that for every player comparison.

 

[GMR]

He was 40 and -2.

I'm convinced.

Payback for the year Rob Blake won it with a negative plus/minus.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Well, he was 40 years old and there were at least 3 defensemen that clearly had better seasons.

Hell, he was -2, on his own team that was the worst of the regular 6 Dmen.

to take it a step further:

CFrel% of -4.3%
FFrel% of -2.9%
67 ES GA

all 3 fall well below Chara and Weber