Putting A Lid On Lidstrom's Legacy

TheAngryHank

Expert
May 28, 2008
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IMO, Lidstrom is one of the easiest players to rank because he is so so so close to Bourque. Very few players are so closely comparable to another.

So basically, decide where you want to put Bourque and then put Lidstrom 1 spot behind that, and you’re done.
I always viewed Bourque and Chelli as carbon copies of one another.I think that is the easiest comparison.Especially playing styles and their playing days overlapped. Chelli had a better facewash game though.
To compare Ray and Lids i find it difficult,especially playing style,in fact i find it impossible to compare anyone to Lids in terms of style.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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Nicklas Lidstrom vs. Joe Sakic's All-Star Competition:

1998
1 - Forsberg
2 - Gretzky
Lidstrom

1999
1 - Forsberg
2 - Yashin
Lidstrom

2000
Lidstrom
1 - Yzerman
2 - Modano

2001
2 - Lemieux
Lidstrom

2002
Lidstrom
2 - Sundin

2003
1 - Forsberg
2 - Thornton
Lidstrom

2006
1 - Thornton
Lidstrom
2 - Staal

2007
1 - Crosby
2 - Lecavalier
Lidstrom

2008
1 - Malkin
Lidstrom
2 - Thornton

2011
1 - Sedin
2 - Stamkos
Lidstrom


Doing the inverse, I'd have Lidstrom at the value of two 1st Team selections at Center (2000, 2002) against Sakic's competition - against whom Sakic had three 1st Team selections - plus a great shot at three 2nd Team selections (2001, 2006, 2008). Still, I think Sakic should have fared better in voting in 1999 and 2000 than he did.

To my overall point, I think Sakic is an all right regular season comparable.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
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Obviously I have told all of you a time or two that I find Nicklas Lidstrom to be overrated (more of a #30-35 player than a #15-25 player), so I'll sit here in my wrongness and be wrong, but I'll raise just a few points:

Yes, I think Chris Pronger bridged the gap a little despite the Norris Trophy disparity. At the times of his 2000-01 and 2006-07 injuries, he had his teams in 1st place there was more of a Pronger/Fleury/Sakic or a Pronger/Jagr vibe for the Hart at mid-season. But Chris Pronger is a prolific shot-blocker, and Nicklas Lidstrom is not (usually 3-4 on his own team), and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know why blocking shots can be detrimental to the completion of an 82-game season. And I think this (shot blocking) more than some Wolverine-esque healing power kept Lidstrom around ~80 games.

Pronger's 2001 and 2007 teams went from .725/.720 records with him to .468/.469 records without him (essentially an 118-point team vs. a 77-point team with sample sizes of 117 and 48 games). In the playoffs, the Ducks went on to win, while the Blues became the only team from 1996-2002 to break the Colorado/Dallas/Detroit stranglehold on the Western Conference Finals. More than that, he has little or nothing to show from his Norris record in Edmonton and Philadelphia, when his reputation may have never been higher than those Summers.

Granted, it's just 4 seasons, but the three Norris + one 2nd Team selection versus one 2nd Team selection over 2001, 2006, 2007, and 2010 is not at all reflective of Lidstrom and Pronger's value relative to each other. If offered 366 games of Lidstrom or 360 games of Pronger (the actual season and playoff count), give me Pronger.

Those four seasons and three Norris trophies are just a drop in the bucket of Lidstrom though. Nicklas Lidstrom was better offensively and more consistent (though playing on the Detroit Red Wings with that many Selke and Norris teammates would probably go a long way to masquerade any down years).

But if he was as great defensively as advertised, I'd like to think that roster would have challenged for more Jennings than they did (winning in 1996, when Lidstrom was the third-best defenseman on the team; and 2008, when Lidstrom was the third-best player on the planet). 2002, for instance - you have Lidstrom joined by Bowman, Chelios, Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, Datsyuk, and Hasek; but an habitual run-and-gun team goes into lock-down mode and takes the Jennings by 18 GA?

Certainly the best offensive defenseman of his era, but it's an acknowledgment that means less and less as we see that there was a valley in that era of true offensive talents - inflating his value in a strict positional comparison. Not a big splash internationally, splitting honors on defense with Kenny Jonsson in 2006 (Jonsson winning Best Defenseman; Lidstrom joining Timonen on the All-Star Team). And in some years, you would have a dozen forwards/goaltenders raising their hands when asking who is better than Lidstrom's Norris/All-Star competition. Rob Blake in 1998. Ray Bourque in 2001. 1st Team All-Star Sandis Ozolinsh in 1997. It's not exactly the toughest gold star to receive, and if you take a great forward from the same era, they'd rack 'em up against that competition too - something we put to the test in a Forsberg/Lidstrom discussion a few years back.

If every year was 2000 or 2008, I'm all on-board with Lidstrom=Bourque (minus 1). But I find being in the mix with names like Brodeur, Clarke, Dryden, and Trottier is more appropriate for him.

As a Detroit fan I agree with this take on Lidstrom and most of the take on Pronger.

International play has been brought up, and I don't know what we can really take from it. I watched almost every game Pronger payed internationally and I always found him pretty lacklustre compared to his NHL play. Despite this, Pronger played for the strongest team most times (somewhat like Lidstrom in the NHL) and thus he won a lot internationally. I only saw a few Lidstrom games internationally but he seems to have under performed in that area as well, at least relative to his NHL play. I take most of this from what I have seen Swedes say, but it seems that internationally Lidstrom is regarded as clearly below Forsberg and Sundin in Sweden. I'm not sure that he stood out as head and shoulders above the other top Swedish defencemen either. Lidstrom played for a team that was typically strong but not the strongest in the field (not unlike Pronger in the NHL) and his teams performed well but not nearly as well as Pronger's international teams did.

I'm not a fan of putting too much weight on international play because the situations that players find themselves in vary so much, plus the small sample sizes. I don't think that either player really helps or hurts his reputation with his international play. It's not a perfect comparison but I find that Lidstrom's international role was somewhat similar to Pronger's NHL role, while Pronger's international role was somewhat similar to Lidstrom's NHL role.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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My take on international play is that it's not a big deal unless it's repeated over-and-over (filtering out Gretzky, Sundin, Forsberg, and Selanne from the Niittymaki and Miller and Vikingstad types who had one starring role over 5-6 games and little else). But at the same time, how many tournaments should it take for a high-end player to not have a really special stand out run before we raise an eyebrow - especially on perpetual favorites like Canada and Sweden?

To tie it back into my Sakic comparison, he's no Mats Sundin on the international stage, but he at least has 2002 to where we don't have ask the same question we do about Pronger and Lidstrom.
 
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steve141

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Aug 13, 2009
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Here's my take:

To score a goal you only have to make one good play. To keep the other team from scoring you have to play well the entire game. Offences get judged by their best plays, defenses get judged by their worst plays. By all accounts, Lidstrom was as consistent as any player.

So yeah, he didn't rush the puck like Orr or Coffey, and he didn't do the crushing hits like Stevens or Pronger. But if you'd look at each players worst play or worst game in an 82 game season, I'd bet Lidstrom's worst would be a lot less embarrassing than the worst of most other HHOF defensemen.

Personally, I'd probably rank him about 4-5 as a defenseman. Behind Orr, Harvey and Bourque, about equal with Potvin, but ahead of Shore, Fetisov and Robinson.
 

Bustedprospect

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Mar 10, 2006
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Lidstrom still sports an almost doubled PPG of what Pronger had in Olympics games, is a two-time point leader for d-men in the tournament and is an IIHF Hall of Famer. I wouldn't call that a weak resume but Lidstrom always left you wishing for more in the blue and yellow shirt that's for sure but he still was pretty consistent.

To be honest i don't think Lidstrom cared that much about the national team. He barely mentioned it in his HOF speech.
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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Lidstrom still sports an almost doubled PPG of what Pronger had in Olympics games, is a two-time point leader for d-men in the tournament and is an IIHF Hall of Famer. I wouldn't call that a weak resume but Lidstrom always left you wishing for more in the blue and yellow shirt that's for sure but he still was pretty consistent.

To be honest i don't think Lidstrom cared that much about the national team. He barely mentioned it in his HOF speech.

Not really. His rep with tre kronor is based on when he was young. Basically its all because of him not playing well in 91 CC and 95 WC and a bit for 98.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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To be honest i don't think Lidstrom cared that much about the national team. He barely mentioned it in his HOF speech.

I actually read a newspaper interview yesterday (online) with Lidström where he talked about his career and apparently after the 2006 Olympic gold medal game he called his mom and cried or something, so I guess at least he cared in that moment. Allegedly. According to himself.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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Here's my take:

To score a goal you only have to make one good play. To keep the other team from scoring you have to play well the entire game. Offences get judged by their best plays, defenses get judged by their worst plays. By all accounts, Lidstrom was as consistent as any player.

So yeah, he didn't rush the puck like Orr or Coffey, and he didn't do the crushing hits like Stevens or Pronger. But if you'd look at each players worst play or worst game in an 82 game season, I'd bet Lidstrom's worst would be a lot less embarrassing than the worst of most other HHOF defensemen.

Personally, I'd probably rank him about 4-5 as a defenseman. Behind Orr, Harvey and Bourque, about equal with Potvin, but ahead of Shore, Fetisov and Robinson.

This one is pretty embarrassing:
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
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In an All-Time sense, about where would you place Sakic? I have him in that same South of Phil Esposito range I'd put Lidstrom and Brodeur.

I'm not really the guy to ask when it comes to an All-Time sense. Based on clips I've seen of Esposito, for example, I'd probably rank myself ahead of him

But over the last 30 years or so, I'd put Sakic in the 3rd tier of superstars

You'd have Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Hasek in the God-like tier
Then Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr, Pronger, Roy in the God-lite tier
Then Iginla, Sakic, Lidstrom, Brodeur in the the perennial superstar tier

This is really splitting hairs, of course, but that's how I see it (based off memory without looking too much into it)
 
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Nick Hansen

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Sep 28, 2017
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Not really. His rep with tre kronor is based on when he was young. Basically its all because of him not playing well in 91 CC and 95 WC and a bit for 98.

He really didn't have that particularly strong performances in '06 or '10 (almost retired at that point so not that big of a deal) either. Kenny Jönsson in Rögle was superior for christ's sake in 06.

Lidstrom was a great player but I agree with a lot of people here. Longevity, prime is great, but that peak is sorely lacking. If you'd go by peak I doubt Lidstrom is even in top 15 defensemen all time. He's like a reliable, very competent clerk working his entire life on the same company without advancing upwards in the company's hierarchy.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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more than some Wolverine-esque healing power kept Lidstrom around ~80 games.

i don’t think anyone is talking about mutant healing powers. i used to think, well of course lidstrom is durable; he isn’t a physical defenseman.

but then we got chris tanev. he’s not in lidstrom’s universe of course, but he’s a wonderful positional defenseman with a great stick. not a physical guy at all. and he gets hurt all the time, because he doesn’t have lidstrom’s genius for getting his job done, outlet pass and all, without getting plastered on the boards while doing it.

and re: blocking shots, this is an interesting quote from pk subban—

When it comes to shot blocking, Subban said he was always impressed by former Detroit Red Wings defenceman and Hall of Famer Nicklas Lidstrom, who made it look easy.

“He was so good positionally, I don’t ever remember him getting down to block a shot,” Subban said. “That being said, not everybody’s as good as Nicklas Lidstrom. I think there’s times where you have to (block shots), but ultimately it’s a part of the game. You can get hit with a shot that you’re not even trying to block. That’s just a part of the game.”

funny sidenote: in that article pk is mostly saying nice things about his frenemy brendan gallagher.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

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IMO, Lidstrom is one of the easiest players to rank because he is so so so close to Bourque. Very few players are so closely comparable to another.

So basically, decide where you want to put Bourque and then put Lidstrom 1 spot behind that, and you’re done.

One spot ahead, but yes this is an interesting point. You just screwed up who is better.

2nd best D-man ever and by far the greatest player of this last generation of Detroit players. Just ask them Yzerman, Bowman and Fedorov started saying he was the best player in the league long before everyone else caught on.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
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One spot ahead, but yes this is an interesting point. You just screwed up who is better.

2nd best D-man ever and by far the greatest player of this last generation of Detroit players. Just ask them Yzerman, Bowman and Fedorov started saying he was the best player in the league long before everyone else caught on.

Every sentence is wrong. Impressive.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Every sentence is wrong. Impressive.

I can't remember Bobby Orr as I have only got to see tapes, early 80's Gretzky too. I have never seen a player control a game more live in my life. That includes late 80's Gretzky. Everytime out he dominated the flow of the game. Clear into his 40's he still completely controlled the tempo of the proceedings. People talk about him as overrated and it is honestly hilarious to me. I can be wrong in every sense, but there was no more prominent player in that run of Wings dominance, he was the core reason for it and again they all say that when they interviewed.

It might have been understated, but the guy absolutely dominated the game for 20 years.
 

tarheelhockey

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Feb 12, 2010
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I can't remember Bobby Orr as I have only got to see tapes, early 80's Gretzky too. I have never seen a player control a game more live in my life. That includes late 80's Gretzky. Everytime out he dominated the flow of the game. Clear into his 40's he still completely controlled the tempo of the proceedings. People talk about him as overrated and it is honestly hilarious to me. I can be wrong in every sense, but there was no more prominent player in that run of Wings dominance, he was the core reason for it and again they all say that when they interviewed.

It might have been understated, but the guy absolutely dominated the game for 20 years.

You say you don’t understand people calling him overrated, then you say he dominated more than Gretzky.
 

quoipourquoi

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i don’t think anyone is talking about mutant healing powers. i used to think, well of course lidstrom is durable; he isn’t a physical defenseman.

but then we got chris tanev. he’s not in lidstrom’s universe of course, but he’s a wonderful positional defenseman with a great stick. not a physical guy at all. and he gets hurt all the time, because he doesn’t have lidstrom’s genius for getting his job done, outlet pass and all, without getting plastered on the boards while doing it.

Part of Babcock's strategy was to have Lidstrom's defensive partner - regardless of which side the puck was dumped in on - retrieve the puck, pass to Lidstrom, and take the hit against the boards. Which is brilliant, but another contribution to Lidstrom not having those nagging injuries in addition to the obvious (fewer physical engagements, fewer blocked shots).
 

The Zetterberg Era

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You say you don’t understand people calling him overrated, then you say he dominated more than Gretzky.

Late 80's Gretzky. I said watching it live.

The point is the game was always played on his terms. People can go on and on about it didn't look flashy he was with stacked teams. He was the engine that drove the Wings greatness. He played half the game and was incredible every time out. The guy was a freaking machine. The puck might be on his stick for half a second and the next whole minute of the game was dictated by that. I get it not watching every game it might escape some. But I have never seen anything like him. Ahead of guys like Fedorov and Yzerman who are also all-time greats by substantial margins while on the same roster. Lidstrom's hockey IQ is right there with the best to ever play the game.

From the moment he cracked the league it was like that until he left. The Norris' were late, he was the best D-man in the league starting around 94.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Late 80's Gretzky. I said watching it live.

The point is the game was always played on his terms. People can go on and on about it didn't look flashy he was with stacked teams. He was the engine that drove the Wings greatness. He played half the game and was incredible every time out. The guy was a freaking machine. The puck might be on his stick for half a second and the next whole minute of the game was dictated by that. I get it not watching every game it might escape some. But I have never seen anything like him. Ahead of guys like Fedorov and Yzerman who are also all-time greats by substantial margins while on the same roster. Lidstrom's hockey IQ is right there with the best to ever play the game.

From the moment he cracked the league it was like that until he left. The Norris' were late, he was the best D-man in the league starting around 94.

This is exactly the type of post that makes Lidstrom seem so overrated sometimes. I expect more will follow. I saw most of Lidstrom's NHL games. He was a great player but this is gross hyperbole. There is no shame in Lidstrom merely being an all time great instead of a guy who was comparable to prime Gretzky, dictated a minute of hockey in half a second, was the best defencean in hockey in 1994 (particularly impressive considering he wasn't even the best defenceman on the team) and was substantially better than Yzerman and Fedorov even during their time together. Making ridiculous claims about Lidstrom doesn't really help him. He's a top five defenceman of all time, he doesn't need it.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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Late 80's Gretzky. I said watching it live.

The point is the game was always played on his terms. People can go on and on about it didn't look flashy he was with stacked teams. He was the engine that drove the Wings greatness. He played half the game and was incredible every time out. The guy was a freaking machine. The puck might be on his stick for half a second and the next whole minute of the game was dictated by that. I get it not watching every game it might escape some. But I have never seen anything like him. Ahead of guys like Fedorov and Yzerman who are also all-time greats by substantial margins while on the same roster. Lidstrom's hockey IQ is right there with the best to ever play the game.

From the moment he cracked the league it was like that until he left. The Norris' were late, he was the best D-man in the league starting around 94.

I never know what to do with the descriptions of Nicklas Lidstrom as though he was some indie band flying under the radar of the mainstream in the 1990s. Guy played for an Original 6 team - the most popular franchise in the United States. No one here is going on and on about how he wasn't flashy and therefore is less than X. No one. We know what a poke check is.

What has been largely addressed is how big the gap over Pronger really is, how Lidstrom's awards support translates interpositionally to Joe Sakic, his performance for Sweden, and how much credit to apply for injury resistance. All worthwhile topics - none having to do with style points.
 

CokenoPepsi

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
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I see Lidstrom has really fallen off at this site.

When he was still playing and just retired he was always in top 10...now prople are only saying top 20?
 

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