Speculation: Project the Future Roster

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
More "spare yourself the heartache of acting like it has any significant chance"


10% for each possible slot is not reasonable because it implicitly assumes the following:
1) Finishing in the bottom 10 is the only possible outcome
2) Lottery odds are flat for each finish position
Both of these are inaccurate.

If you have to guesstimate it, I'd suggest having a bell curve for each position rather than a flat 10%. One possible example: 1-10 are 2%, 5%, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 5%, 5%, and then 8% chance of being outside of that range (read: not a lottery pick, or PLAYOFFS ;) ). Using that, ten tries with random.org gets:
8th overall/5th overall
7th overall/9th overall
5th overall/6th overall
7th overall/5th overall
9th overall/6th overall

6th overall/8th overall
3rd overall/6th overall
2nd overall/7th overall
6th overall/7th overall
Outside of top-10/Outside of top-10

Is it actually truly nigh-impossible? No; my "guarantee" is sightly hyperbolic. But I don't consider it likely enough to matter.

Lottery odds are not flat for each finish position, but they are flat-ish when you don't know your finish position. They're much flatter than your curve suggests.

A 6th last team (which seems to be your median) would have a 7.6% chance of picking first. And if you multiply the odds by every point on your curve and add them up you still get a number that would add up to a ~7% chance of drafting 1st. And that's playing along with your 2% chance of finishing last, which seems wildly low to me. I'd say we have a better than 5% chance of finishing dead last.
 

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
Oh, and Tankathon doesn't have 2023 up, but they do have a 2022:
Tankathon | 2022 NHL Draft Order & Lottery Simulator

They're assuming we finish 4th overall; I dunno what that's based on.


EDIT: And it's quite capable of coming up with dream scenarios...
View attachment 460393
Not that those are likely (I think I hit the "Sim Lottery" button about thirty times before that happened), but, y'know.

Obviously you understand that the "likelihood" is not 1 over the number of times you personally had to click the sim button. They have an odds page and it says 10% chance at picking 1st, and 10% chance of picking 2nd, which by good fortune were the ballpark numbers I was working with.

I think it would be a realistic guess that the Jackets would finish a spot or two above 4th last, and thus get slightly less than a 20% shot at a top two pick, but it's close enough.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
Lottery odds are not flat for each finish position, but they are flat-ish when you don't know your finish position. They're much flatter than your curve suggests.

A 6th last team (which seems to be your median) would have a 7.6% chance of picking first. And if you multiply the odds by every point on your curve and add them up you still get a number that would add up to a ~7% chance of drafting 1st. And that's playing along with your 2% chance of finishing last, which seems wildly low to me. I'd say we have a better than 5% chance of finishing dead last.
That's not a 2% chance of finishing last - that's a 2% chance of finishing last and keeping the #1 pick. Or other move-up-to-#1 scenarios.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
Obviously you understand that the "likelihood" is not 1 over the number of times you personally had to click the sim button. They have an odds page and it says 10% chance at picking 1st, and 10% chance of picking 2nd, which by good fortune were the ballpark numbers I was working with.
That's only assuming the team does finish 4th last. Incidentally, the most likely scenario if we do finish 4th last (by a significant margin) is moving back one or two spots. That's why I'm suggesting a single curve for both, because the lottery is very much rigged against staying put for the bottom-6 teams.
 

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
That's not a 2% chance of finishing last - that's a 2% chance of finishing last and keeping the #1 pick. Or other move-up-to-#1 scenarios.

Oh. Well in that case to get a 2% probability you'd need a team with a median expectation of finishing in the middle ten of teams. Per tankathon even the 11th worst club has a 3.1% chance of selecting first.
 

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
That's only assuming the team does finish 4th last. Incidentally, the most likely scenario if we do finish 4th last (by a significant margin) is moving back one or two spots. That's why I'm suggesting a single curve for both, because the lottery is very much rigged against staying put for the bottom-6 teams.

It's about a 75% chance that a bottom-6 team will win the top pick. You're making winning the top pick seem like a very unlikely outcome for any and all places in the standings. But somebody is going to win it.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
Oh. Well in that case to get a 2% probability you'd need a team with a median expectation of finishing in the middle ten of teams. Per tankathon even the 11th worst club has a 3.1% chance of selecting first.
This would be assuming that every finish position is equally likely.

The curve I did was based on the idea that presumably the most probable outcome is finishing 5th overall (like we did this past season - analytics suggests we stayed about the same in terms of immediate performance) and then taking into consideration that the most likely lottery outcome from finishing there is to end up moving back a spot (or two). Thus, 6th overall as most likely, fanning out from there.

* * *​
It's about a 75% chance that a bottom-6 team will win the top pick. You're making winning the top pick seem like a very unlikely outcome for any and all places in the standings. But somebody is going to win it.
There's a very large difference between "a bottom-6 team" and "our team, specifically".
 

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
This would be assuming that every finish position is equally likely.

No it isn't. Your numbers are impossible whether it is a flat curve or a bell curve.

You said your numbers were the chances for each pick (not just the finish in the standings), and if I play along with a 6th last finish (a decent guess) I can't get to a 2% probability of getting the top pick from there. Look at the pick odds from tankathon. 6th last has a 7.6% chance of getting the top pick. The chances taper down for the teams finishing ahead of them but it doesn't get to 2% until you're in the middle third of the league.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
33,518
14,261
Exurban Cbus
No one told me there would be math before I started this thread.:sarcasm:

upload_2021-8-10_7-37-29.gif
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
No one told me there would be math before I started this thread.:sarcasm:
Well, I searched long and hard but couldn't find any rule violations to stick you with, so I had to punish you for it somehow. If you'd just spat on the sidewalk it would have been so much easier for all of us.
:sarcasm:
 

LetsGOJackets!!

Registered User
Mar 23, 2004
4,788
1,150
Columbus Ohio
Well, I searched long and hard but couldn't find any rule violations to stick you with, so I had to punish you for it somehow. If you'd just spat on the sidewalk it would have been so much easier for all of us.
:sarcasm:

2022 NHL Draft Lottery Odds

Lottery odds are an estimate until official 16-team odds are released.
NHL is also unclear about some scenarios in the new lottery rules in which a team can only jump 10 spots.
TEAM12345678910111213141516AVG

Buffalo
25.718.755.62.3

Detroit
12.113.632.242.23.0

Arizona
10.910.97.039.731.53.7

Columbus
9.79.913.743.623.14.4
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Not going to argue the stats with you brainiacs - but if we were sitting at 4 and had a 9.7% chance of moving to first over all last year - what changed?
 

koteka

Registered User
Jan 1, 2017
3,933
4,268
Central Ohio
2022 NHL Draft Lottery Odds

Lottery odds are an estimate until official 16-team odds are released.
NHL is also unclear about some scenarios in the new lottery rules in which a team can only jump 10 spots.
TEAM12345678910111213141516AVG

Buffalo
25.718.755.62.3

Detroit
12.113.632.242.23.0

Arizona
10.910.97.039.731.53.7

Columbus
9.79.913.743.623.14.4
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Not going to argue the stats with you brainiacs - but if we were sitting at 4 and had a 9.7% chance of moving to first over all last year - what changed?

Teams 15 and 16 would not be able to pass us under the can only move up 10 spots rule, thus odds would be slightly different.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
2022 NHL Draft Lottery Odds

Lottery odds are an estimate until official 16-team odds are released.
NHL is also unclear about some scenarios in the new lottery rules in which a team can only jump 10 spots.
TEAM12345678910111213141516AVG

Buffalo
25.718.755.62.3

Detroit
12.113.632.242.23.0

Arizona
10.910.97.039.731.53.7

Columbus
9.79.913.743.623.14.4
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Not going to argue the stats with you brainiacs - but if we were sitting at 4 and had a 9.7% chance of moving to first over all last year - what changed?
That's the thing - if we knew we were going to finish at #28 in the league, 9.7% would be reasonable. But we don't know that. While we can surmise we'll be bottom-10, the odds are very very different for each finish.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
Okay. Here's arguably a better way to sim this stuff.

First, go to the random.org Lists Randomizer, and put in this list of 100 items:
BUF
BUF
BUF
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
NSH
NSH
NSH
NSH
NSH
CGY/NYR/PIT
MTL/LAK
CHI-CBJ/Playoffs
What that does is randomly determine the "finish" using a bell curve like the one I suggested earlier, only 1-10 are 3/5/7/10/15/20/15/10/7/5, and 3 is for being outside the top-10 (I put them in as "11-13", "14-15", and "16 or playoffs", basically)

When you run the randomizer, the first item on the list will indicate a team. From there, go to Tankathon's lottery simulator, run it, and see where the randomly determined team landed. That's the pick. (So if you get, say, DET (Detroit), when you run the simulator look for where Detroit ended up; that'll be the simulated Jackets pick.)

When I ran it this way ten times (well, okay, twenty - ten each for 2022 and 2023), I got:

7th/11-13th
4th/2nd (from 1st) <- technically a lottery win but it wouldn't feel like it
6th (from 5th)/2nd (from 3rd) <-- one down, one up
2nd/7th (from 6th) <-- one very good keep, one down
3rd (from 2nd)/8th (from 7th) <-- one down both years, but still a decent pick in at least one

2nd (from 6th)/5th (from 3rd) <-- one big move up, one big move down
6th/11th (from 9th) <-- just a big move down
6th/9th
6th/5th
6th (from 5th)/6th (from 4th) <-- one of the worse scenarios

So maybe that'll fit folks' anticipations better.
 

LetsGOJackets!!

Registered User
Mar 23, 2004
4,788
1,150
Columbus Ohio
As you say, we don't know where either of our 1st rounders will end up in 2022. & we certainly cannot predict our chances of winning a lottery - history would suggest not holding your breath. However, I remember 2003 when the lowly Cavs won the lottery and selected Lebron James, thankfully that lucky draw for the Cavs kept my family entertained for many years. The CBJ are due for some good luck.. 2022 - 23 would be perfect timing. I think this team could be entertaining too.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
As you say, we don't know where either of our 1st rounders will end up in 2022. & we certainly cannot predict our chances of winning a lottery - history would suggest not holding your breath. However, I remember 2003 when the lowly Cavs won the lottery and selected Lebron James, thankfully that lucky draw for the Cavs kept my family entertained for many years. The CBJ are due for some good luck.. 2022 - 23 would be perfect timing. I think this team could be entertaining too.
Sadly, I derive no comfort from the gambler's fallacy.
 
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majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
Okay. Here's arguably a better way to sim this stuff.

First, go to the random.org Lists Randomizer, and put in this list of 100 items:
BUF
BUF
BUF
DET
DET
DET
DET
DET
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
ARI
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
ANA
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
SJS
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
NJD
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
SEA
NSH
NSH
NSH
NSH
NSH
CGY/NYR/PIT
MTL/LAK
CHI-CBJ/Playoffs
What that does is randomly determine the "finish" using a bell curve like the one I suggested earlier, only 1-10 are 3/5/7/10/15/20/15/10/7/5, and 3 is for being outside the top-10 (I put them in as "11-13", "14-15", and "16 or playoffs", basically)

When you run the randomizer, the first item on the list will indicate a team. From there, go to Tankathon's lottery simulator, run it, and see where the randomly determined team landed. That's the pick. (So if you get, say, DET (Detroit), when you run the simulator look for where Detroit ended up; that'll be the simulated Jackets pick.)

When I ran it this way ten times (well, okay, twenty - ten each for 2022 and 2023), I got:

7th/11-13th
4th/2nd (from 1st) <- technically a lottery win but it wouldn't feel like it
6th (from 5th)/2nd (from 3rd) <-- one down, one up
2nd/7th (from 6th) <-- one very good keep, one down
3rd (from 2nd)/8th (from 7th) <-- one down both years, but still a decent pick in at least one

2nd (from 6th)/5th (from 3rd) <-- one big move up, one big move down
6th/11th (from 9th) <-- just a big move down
6th/9th
6th/5th
6th (from 5th)/6th (from 4th) <-- one of the worse scenarios

So maybe that'll fit folks' anticipations better.

If you multiply the lottery probability by the probability of each finish that you gave then you should still get a number like 7% chance of winning 1st OA.

And my probabilities for our standings finish would be a bit different than "3/5/7/10/15/20/15/10/7/5/3".

Maybe

7/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/8/6/16


Multiplied by the lottery probabilities that should be more like 9% chance of 1st OA.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,851
31,387
40N 83W (approx)
If you multiply the lottery probability by the probability of each finish that you gave then you should still get a number like 7% chance of winning 1st OA.

And my probabilities for our standings finish would be a bit different than "3/5/7/10/15/20/15/10/7/5/3".

Maybe

7/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/8/6/16


Multiplied by the lottery probabilities that should be more like 9% chance of 1st OA.
I frankly do not accept any suggestion that we have any probablity anywhere near that high of being worse than all three of Buffalo, Detroit, and Arizona. Certainly not that those are equal to ending up in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th.
 

majormajor

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
24,726
29,420
I frankly do not accept any suggestion that we have any probablity anywhere near that high of being worse than all three of Buffalo, Detroit, and Arizona. Certainly not that those are equal to ending up in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th.

A 7% chance is really not very high.

There's room for Buffalo, Detroit, and Arizona to all have much higher chances of finishing dead last, closer to 20-30% each.

You also only gave us a 3% chance of finishing above the bottom ten, that's also far too low.
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,621
4,188
Thought for new thread: Discuss the Probabilities of Draft Position. I'll start: Jenner is at least a 3.8% chance of being in the top 6 four seasons from now. :badidea:
 

LetsGOJackets!!

Registered User
Mar 23, 2004
4,788
1,150
Columbus Ohio
Thought for a new thread - anybody here have a really good understanding of analytics? Would you be willing to educate the rest of us in sources of data, how to read the analysis etc? These two people that were just added to the Coaching staff in the analytics department - what will they be doing on a day to day basis?
 
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DarkandStormy

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
7,092
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Thought for a new thread - anybody here have a really good understanding of analytics? Would you be willing to educate the rest of us in sources of data, how to read the analysis etc? These two people that were just added to the Coaching staff in the analytics department - what will they be doing on a day to day basis?

I can help - or point you in the direction of smarter folks. As for what the new additions to the staff will be doing, that's harder to say. I can try to track down their old stuff, though.

I believe a few years ago on a podcast (the HockeyPDOcast if I remember) a member of the Jackets analytics department was being interviewed and said Torts basically briefly read the reports he gave him but never asked questions and he doubted Torts did anything with the data.

Weissbock previously worked for the Florida Panthers - Florida Panthers Name Richard Pollock Pro Scout And Josh Weissbock Prospect Consulting Specialist
As did Cam Lawrence - Florida Panthers hire third analyst with Vancouver hockey connections | The Province

They were also involved with Canucks Army for awhile - Vancouver Canucks ownership knows change is needed. It’s time to bring home the computer boys
 
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tunnelvision

Registered User
Jul 31, 2021
2,606
2,798
I was thinking how many players there will be in our 2025-26 roster from the next four drafts (2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025). If we rely on recent history repeating itself, the number of established full-time NHLers of those draft picks is going to be about 2-4. I checked the stats from hockeydb, there might be errors:

2015-16:

(2012)
Murray 82gp
Anderson 12gp
(2013)
Wennberg 69gp
Korpisalo 31gp
Rychel 32gp
Bjorkstrand 12gp
(2014)
Milano 3gp

2016-17:

(2013)
Wennberg 80gp
Korpisalo 14gp
Bjorkstrand 26gp
(2014)
Milano 4gp
(2015)
Werenski 78gp
Carlsson 2gp
Nutivaara 66gp

2017-18:

(2014)
Milano 55gp
(2015)
Werenski 77gp
Carlsson 14gp
Nutivaara 61gp
(2016)
Dubois 82gp

2018-19:

(2015)
Werenski 82gp
Carlsson 1gp
Nutivaara 80gp
Stenlund 4gp
Gavrikov -
(2016)
Dubois 82gp
(2017)
Texier 2gp

2019-20:

(2016)
Dubois 70gp
Peeke 22gp
Thurkauf 3gp
(2017)
Texier 36gp
Bemstrom 56gp
(2018)
Foudy 2gp

2020-21:

(2017)
Texier 49gp
Bemstrom 20gp
(2018)
Foudy 24gp
Vehvilainen 1gp
 

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