Prime Henrik Sedin vs. Current Leon Draisaitl

[KoozNetsOff 92]

What’s the sample size? Because Henrik Sedin produced without his brother the year he won the Hart Trophy. He also did that while not being one of the worst defensive players in the league had games with Kevin Bieksa as his winger, helped his team with his division and a round in the playoffs.

Draisaitl winning this poll is just laughable guy is literally in the one percentile for defensive play, he’s nowhere near the complete player peak Sedin was.

Ummm, Daniel missed 20 games that season? So Henrik has basically no sample size where he hasn't been attached to his brother. Drai spent more than half the season away from McDavid. So sample size favours Drai, not Henrik.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Henrik won the ross and hart in 09/10 because OV missed 10 games. Drai just won a ross by double digits. He is also 1 of the best goal scorers in the league. He also doesn't have his twin brother attached to his hip. He recently put up a 50+50 season, first since Malkin in 11/12. Drai is better.

 

[MadLuke]

Henrik won the ross and hart in 09/10 because OV missed 10 games. Drai just won a ross by double digits. He is also 1 of the best goal scorers in the league. He also doesn't have his twin brother attached to his hip. He recently put up a 50+50 season, first since Malkin in 11/12. Drai is better.

Do you think Draisaitl win over peak Ovechkin playing on the league offensive powerhouse team (by a giant amount, the 2009-2010 caps scored almost 50 goals more goal than any team with a much better than anyone else 25% pp) that do not miss 10 games ?

Last for the Oilers, at even strength:
When Draisaitl was on the ice: 80 GF, 77 GA, 51% GF
When he was not on the ice...: 80 GF, 96 GA, 45% GF

In the last 3 seasons, at even strength:
When Draisaitl was on the ice: 246 GF, 248 GA, 49.3% GF, 3.74 GF/60 vs 3.77 GA/60
When he was not on the ice...: 273 GF, 325 GA, 45.7% GF

That not bad at all, but Henrik Sedins from 2009-2010 to 2011-2012
When Sedin was on the ice.: 240 GF, 153 GA, 61.1% GF, 3.79 GF/60 vs 2.42 GA/60
When he was not on the ice: 306 GF, 279 GA, 52.3% GF


Drai mixed of size/speed/potential is hard to pass and how good Sedin high puck possession style was is easy to underestimate (that style do not need to produce has much to be much better than a different offensive style because it is the best defense in hockey).

Would like to see Draisaitl have actual success (i.e. is team scoring more goals on the ice than the opposition when he is on the ice to help is team win hockey game) and not just good numbers we look first at some point, specially with the good company he often has on is line (not just McDavid from time to time, but the RNH, Yamamoto and co.), playing for the Oilers could be explaining all of it, because McDavid on the same team do have nicer defensive numbers and everything overall but even for him they are quite mediocre.

 

[authentic]

That's a tough one.

Henrik had some a long prime, so many people will not remember his absolute peak, but at his peak he was unbelievable. Go back to the 09/10 season where he scored 29 goals and 112 total points, that's where you want to focus. Despite Daniel being out for about 20 games he elevated his game while essentially towing two far less than elite forwards along with him. He ended up winning the Art Ross that year and the Hart.

Draisaitl is really good though... It's pretty even to me....

He had a point per game during that stretch, but scored more goals. Actually, he had 11 goals and 18 points in 19 games without him. Draisaitl's games without McDavid look much better than that.

 

[Fire Benning]

Henrik won the ross and hart in 09/10 because OV missed 10 games. Drai just won a ross by double digits. He is also 1 of the best goal scorers in the league. He also doesn't have his twin brother attached to his hip. He recently put up a 50+50 season, first since Malkin in 11/12. Drai is better.

You stated why Draisaitl was slightly better offensively, I’ve stated why Henrik Sedin is miles better defensively and having him on your team correlates to his team vastly outscoring the opposition when he’s on the ice.

I still can’t believe how hilarious this forum is, people are assuming “PoIntZ” and “GoalZ” are the only way to evaluate players. Peak Sedin was the best possession and second best goal differential centre in the league behind only Datsyuk. He was a much more well rounded player, I seriously am baffled at how people just don’t give a f*** about anything other than points.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Voted Draisaitl initially on goal scoring prowess, but I would change my voted if I could.

Offensively Leon is a better goal scorer, Henrik was a better playmaker - but Henrik was a much better defensive player.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Denfensive impact is much harder to measure. The more casual fan myself included are really not going to understand how important or just how big the gap was defensively, or other hard to or impossible things to quantify.

 

[nowhereman]

Henrik won the ross and hart in 09/10 because OV missed 10 games. Drai just won a ross by double digits. He is also 1 of the best goal scorers in the league. He also doesn't have his twin brother attached to his hip. He recently put up a 50+50 season, first since Malkin in 11/12. Drai is better.

So? Plenty of players wouldn't have won the hardware they did, if not for injuries to their peers. That additional context doesn't take away from the quality of their play. If you put Henrik and Draisaitl's big seasons up side-by-side and adjust for league scoring differences, there's not much separating the two. Raw goal totals really aren't much of deal-breaker either, since it is only one part of the equation in judging a player's overall offensive impact... a goal scorer isn't automatically better than a playmaker just because they finished the play rather than starting it (ask Alex Burrows). Henrik was also a 5-on-5 monster, racking up the 2nd highest single-season EVP total in the last 25 years.

Where they do differ, however, is in every area of the ice that isn't 20 feet out from the opponent's net. Sedin was a very competent defensive player, while Drai is a tire fire. Henrik didn't have to completely ignore his end of the rink to put up points. In that sense, Sedin was much more of a positive-impact player and contributed to his team's success by not just adding to his own stat line but also in helping his team outscore the opponent.

 

[StevenF1919]

Sedin actually knew how to play defense.

 

[Captain97]

Draisaitl with goals being the tiebreaker

 

[Regal]

I think some people are overselling Henrik defensively. He was ok, but his impact in GF% was so great mainly because of the possession time he and Daniel would eat up, which meant the other team wouldn't get many chances the other way. They would usually dominate the zone and then change when the puck left unless the opposing team was on the rush.

That's obviously super valuable, but I'm still not sure if Henrik would have that same possession impact without Daniel by his side unless he had a comparable winger. Obviously Draisaitl has played a lot with McDavid who is a better talent than Daniel, but the two of them seem to really struggle defensively together. Draisaitl centering RNH and Yamamoto in the second half last year also dominated possession and put up huge point totals. It's obviously a small sample, but we also don't have a ton of sample of Henrik centering a line without Daniel.

I tend to lean toward the idea that Draisaitl can have a huge impact on GF% as well while putting up huge totals if he has the right wingers and isn't overplayed, and given his goalscoring prowess as well as being a high end passer I think he's the better individual offensive talent. I would take the Sedins as a duo over Draisaitl and a star winger, because I know the Sedins would dominate the ice, while the Drai line would be more of an unknown, but I think I would take Draisaitl as an individual player over Henrik.

 

[CherryToke]

Draisaitl is extremely overrated

 

[McVespa99]

Draisaitl is extremely overrated

Totally. All the Hockey writers and his peers on the ice are idiots.

 

[Zanon]

Draisaitl is not even half the Centerman H. Sedin was in his prime. Draisaitl can put the puck in the net, though. I'll give him that.

 

[eliasjx]

Draisaitl and it's not even close. Not only for the play-making, but for actually being a man capable of getting physical. I'll always remember the Sedin Sisters getting punched in the face by Marchand in the 2011 finals and they just stand their taking it. No wonder they never won any cups.

 

[apollo18]

tons of people experiencing recency bias.

EASILY HENRIK

 

[Fire Benning]

I think some people are overselling Henrik defensively. He was ok, but his impact in GF% was so great mainly because of the possession time he and Daniel would eat up, which meant the other team wouldn't get many chances the other way. They would usually dominate the zone..

You just described perfect defense...

 

[Captain Controversy]

Draisaitl Is accomplishing more at a younger age. So easily it's Drai.

 

[Fire Benning]

Draisaitl and it's not even close. Not only for the play-making, but for actually being a man capable of getting physical. I'll always remember the Sedin Sisters getting punched in the face by Marchand in the 2011 finals and they just stand their taking it. No wonder they never won any cups.

I remember the Jets in the finals, oh wait I don’t no wonder no player in their pathetic franchise history won anything.

 

[BAM]

Draisaitl Is accomplishing more at a younger age. So easily it's Drai.

No he just goes all offence on a team that is so bad that their fans have cared more about points than anything else. Prime Bergeron/Datysuk never reached the point totals of LD but they were much better players overall. To Oiler fans though seeing those 2 never reach LD's peak point totals = a much worse player.

 

[Regal]

You just described perfect defense...

As I said in the rest of the post, defense that the Sedins played as a duo with a very specific playstyle that they perfected over years of playing together, not necessarily individual play by Henrik. Without Daniel, I don't know if Henrik's possession game would be as dominant the way someone like Datsyuk's was regardless of Zetterberg being on his wing or not. We don't have a large sample of this, but in '09-10, when Henrik won the Art Ross with Daniel missing 19 games, Henrik's CF% went from 57.5 with Daniel to 51.9 without, his SF% went from 55.8 to 45.9, his GF% went from 69.5 to 50, his xGF% went from 58.2 to 49.3, his HDCF% went from 61.9 to 45.9 and his GA/60 went from 2.28 to 3.03. The regression RAPM numbers for both Sedins aren't nearly as dominant as their actual possession numbers either.

 

[KidLine93]

There are only two players in NHL history who have lead the league in assists more than Henrik Sedin (who did it in three consecutive seasons): Gretzky and Orr. The guy beat out prime Crosby and Ovechkin for the Hart/Ross and saw the game like almost no other player in the last 20 years. Some of the plays he pulled off with Daniel were astounding.

He gets my vote.

I mean Drai beat out Crosby, Ovi, McDavid and Mackinnon for the Ross/Lindsay and Hart. He also was 1 goal away from a rocket Richard (lost to Ovi).

But yeah Hank was phenomenal. He ate up the Oilers more times than I can count. Too bad these boards didn't give him any respect back then. Called him soft and all that other crap. Weird how people change their perception now that they don't like the guy currently producing.

 

[KidLine93]

You stated why Draisaitl was slightly better offensively, I’ve stated why Henrik Sedin is miles better defensively and having him on your team correlates to his team vastly outscoring the opposition when he’s on the ice.

I still can’t believe how hilarious this forum is, people are assuming “PoIntZ” and “GoalZ” are the only way to evaluate players. Peak Sedin was the best possession and second best goal differential centre in the league behind only Datsyuk. He was a much more well rounded player, I seriously am baffled at how people just don’t give a f*** about anything other than points.

Peak Sedin was also on a stacked Canucks roster those years which greatly helps those statistics. Every line combo or defence pairing he played with was exceptional or at least competent. He didn't have guys coming off a PTO or penciled in for AHL time to start the year playing on the top D pairing for parts of the year

 

[KidLine93]

No he just goes all offence on a team that is so bad that their fans have cared more about points than anything else. Prime Bergeron/Datysuk never reached the point totals of LD but they were much better players overall. To Oiler fans though seeing those 2 never reach LD's peak point totals = a much worse player.

whos better over their career. Bergeron or Ovechkin?

Because one is vastly better defensively. Im just curious to see where you sit on this.

 

[Fire Benning]

Peak Sedin was also on a stacked Canucks roster those years which greatly helps those statistics. Every line combo or defence pairing he played with was exceptional or at least competent. He didn't have guys coming off a PTO or penciled in for AHL time to start the year playing on the top D pairing for parts of the year

Stuff like this always makes little sense to me. Take a player like Pettersson last year, he played on a very mediocre Vancouver team yet when he was on the ice the team scored at like a 65% rate and when he was off they scored at a 45% rate. Despite being on a bad team, Pettersson still was able to completely tilt the ice when he was on.

Draisaitl’s most common line mate is arguably the most talented hockey player ever. If two players of their magnitude can’t tilt the ice and outscore their opposition than maybe they’re not as good as people think they are.