GDT: Preseason Game 5: Pittsburgh Penguins vs. Detroit Red Wings -- Final Countdown to the season!

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm at believe it when I see it territory when it comes to JJ. And the guy is only like 20% of the way through his contract and considered damned near untradeable. NHL coaches love their "established vets." Riikola is still a bit raw and will require patience to work through some things, even on the third pair. This all adds up to a pretty obvious conclusion, at least to me. Once JJ is off the NHL roster I'll break out the pom poms.

If things are so miserable around here go somewhere else and/or develop a healthy hobby and log out for a while to pursue it if this is all having such a negative impact on your mindset. And that absolutely does not just go for you.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I like how you think this is a reasonable response to "this place and other sections of Penguins fans is overly negative". Responding to that with "if you don't like it, then gtfo" doesn't really help your case here. Calling this place "overly negative" is like calling the sky blue, it's just a fact. That doesn't mean you just worship every move and everything the Penguins do, but it's also completely fair to say that this place is way more jaded than the average Penguins fan.

 

[K Fleur]

Didn’t see the game, but reading this GDT it sounds like the enigma of Dominik Simon will continue.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I like how you think this is a reasonable response to "this place and other sections of Penguins fans is overly negative". Responding to that with "if you don't like it, then gtfo" doesn't really help your case here. Calling this place "overly negative" is like calling the sky blue, it's just a fact.

If it's such a natural fact then why gripe about it?

How does complaining about complaining actually improve anything if it's enough of an issue to merit bringing up?

And for the record I don't want you going anywhere. And my advice is genuine.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If it's such a natural fact then why gripe about it?

How does complaining about complaining actually improve anything if it's enough of an issue to merit bringing up?

Because being overly jaded is just as bad as being overly faithful? Do you think it's unfair to criticize a place like the comment section on r/penguins for being overly faithful for the team? If you would post there often and it was just a non-stop "I love the Penguins" posts, would you not want that to change if you planned on posting there often?

I just don't get why some people on here always respond to positive news with something negative. It happens quite often on here. It's one thing to be cautious and not just jump to conclusions, it's another thing to respond to any piece of good news with something bad. For example (because I'd be willing to bet this was said), I'd like a balanced discussion on the Maatta-Kahun trade, not someone saying "well we traded Maatta, so now we're stuck with JJ".

With the Jesse tweet, it's just like....we get it. Johnson was bad last year. Why can't we be happy that they corrected it now (or at least appear to be correcting it), instead of being snobby and saying "well, they should have done it sooner!"? It's one thing to say "I'll believe it when I see it", saying "they should have done it sooner" is just pouring water on everyone else's campfire

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Because being overly jaded is just as bad as being overly faithful? Do you think it's unfair to criticize a place like the comment section on r/penguins for being overly faithful for the team? If you would post there often and it was just a non-stop "I love the Penguins" posts, would you not want that to change if you planned on posting there often.

I just don't get why some people on here always respond to positive news with something negative. It happens literally all of the time.

I just notice it here quite a lot. I'm not trying to pick on you or single you out. There is this weird subset of posters (many who have been around a while) who make it a point to hardly ever actually discuss much of anything yet pop into threads occasionally to vent their spleen about what a wretched shithole of garbage thought this place has "turned into" (spoiler: this place has been cynical, offbeat and sarcastic since before even my join date). How about change people's minds, instead? Or simply ignore what you don't like and engage with the rest.

Regardless, I hope as much as anyone that JJ sits like 60+ games but I really have a hard time seeing that. Though of course it's encouraging to see some dots seemingly start to connect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just notice it here quite a lot. I'm not trying to pick on you or single you out. There is this weird subset of posters (many who have been around a while) who make it a point to hardly ever actually discuss much of anything yet pop into threads occasionally to vent their spleen about what a wretched ****hole of garbage thought this place has "turned into" (spoiler: this place has been cynical, offbeat and sarcastic since before even my join date). How about change people's minds, instead? Or simply ignore what you don't like and engage with the rest.

Regardless, I hope as much as anyone that JJ sits like 60+ games but I really have a hard time seeing that. Though of course it's encouraging to see some dots seemingly start to connect.

I know exactly who you're talking about, I can think of a couple of examples here too

You can point both ways, there are people who just find reasons to complain with anything, just like there are people who just do drive-by's complaining about what everyone else is saying. I was just specifically responding to that Jesse tweet. It's just like, what's even the point of that? I think your stance is 100% justified, taking a "I'll believe it when I see it" approach is completely reasonable because there are reasons to doubt it. But what does saying "they should have done it sooner!" do? We get it that Johnson sucks and sucked last year, why can't we just be happy that they appear to be correcting it now?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know exactly who you're talking about, I can think of a couple of examples here too

You can point both ways, there are people who just find reasons to complain with anything, just like there are people who just do drive-by's complaining about what everyone else is saying. I was just specifically responding to that Jesse tweet. It's just like, what's even the point of that? I think your stance is 100% justified, taking a "I'll believe it when I see it" approach is completely reasonable because there are reasons to doubt it. But what does saying "they should have done it sooner!" do? We get it that Johnson sucks and sucked last year, why can't we just be happy that they appear to be correcting it now?

That's valid.

Speaking for myself, I should probably be more mindful at times with the way I express my opinions. I probably come off as quite the miserable bastard much of the time but this is all just for funsies, for me. I'm not saying I don't have serious opinions about the team and I'm not saying I don't love the sport, I just kind of keep it separated into it's own little fun compartment that I never try to take too seriously. And I most fluently express myself via sarcasm, dark humor and often cynicism. Which can be grating to many.

Anyway... I've gone way off the rails.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

? Dude didn’t make it out of preseason.

If he’s talking about last year we were so GD injured that Johnson basically had to play.

Why are we still complaining about the best news to come out of preseason?

Jack Johnson was garbage all year and got scratched for one game - he was even used out of position on his right side.

One.

Game.

Riikola played 37. Ruhwedel played 18. Prow couldn't manage a single game.

I don't know who else would get that kind of rope. It only happened because the org had to rationalize the unforced error of a long-term big money contract for Mr. "We know why he was scratched in Columbus and it wasn't because of his play"

Fingers crossed that they've finally crossed the "justification of time, money, and effort" threshold once and for all.

They look poised to start the season with JJ on the bench...

...until Riikola takes a swig of his Gatorade the "wrong way" then he's right back in there.

If things are so miserable around here go somewhere else and/or develop a healthy hobby and log out for a while to pursue it if this is all having such a negative impact on your mindset. And that absolutely does not just go for you.

Everyone who saw how dumb this signing was from Day One have a right to call a spade a spade.

People who didn't can suck it up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Everyone who saw how dumb this signing was from Day One have a right to call a spade a spade.

People who didn't can suck it up.

But again, what does that add to the conversation? What does saying "well, he should have been scratched earlier" do but rain on the parades of everyone else who is happy that Johnson may be getting scratched?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But again, what does that add to the conversation? What does saying "well, he should have been scratched earlier" do but rain on the parades of everyone else who is happy that Johnson may be getting scratched?

It's a joyous occasion whenever JJ is scratched. But it's also absurd that it took this long, and that's part of the problem.

It can be 2 things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's a joyous occasion whenever JJ is scratched. But it's also absurd that it took this long, and that's part of the problem.

It can be 2 things.

What is this "problem", that they misused Johnson last year? Why is it wrong to just be happy that they're correcting it now, instead of dwelling on the past where they were making a mistake? I just don't see what it adds, it just seems to be gloating that you were right about Johnson being bad before the team realized it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What is this "problem", that they misused Johnson last year? Why is it wrong to just be happy that they're correcting it now, instead of dwelling on the past where they were making a mistake? I just don't see what it adds, it just seems to be gloating that you were right about Johnson being bad before the team realized it.

The team really, really, really should have realized it, though. They have all the resources, film, metrics we don't even see, scouts, etc.

That said I'm not really interested in taking anyone to task. We all have bad takes. I used to think that Koltsov and Christensen were going to actually be something, FFS. You have any idea how many times I've been super wrong? What right do I have, really?

I just want it fixed. But that might be too big an ask which... again... leads us back to the "why the f*** is this even a thing to begin with?!?" portion of the program.

But yeah... ultimately I know what you mean, Empo. Can't go back and change it now. Nothing wrong with hoping for the best moving forward.

 

[Coastal Kev]

If the Pens are to have success once again this season, they must move on from Sully. Hockey coaches have a short shelf life, Penguin coaches are even shorter.

He was not a genius, he simply made some good decisions in regards to lines and playing time. I should also note the moves that propelled the Pens were out of necessity rather than a genius at work.

Now after 2 cups, the meathead believes he reinvented the game. NOT GOOD.

FIRE SULLY by February please! Do it JR, or you will never sniff a shot at another cup.

 

[K Fleur]

I think the structure of the team has been more of a problem than coaching the last 2 seasons.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What is this "problem", that they misused Johnson last year? Why is it wrong to just be happy that they're correcting it now, instead of dwelling on the past where they were making a mistake? I just don't see what it adds, it just seems to be gloating that you were right about Johnson being bad before the team realized it.

Part of this forum is discussing what went wrong for the team and why. This wasn't a single instance of a mistake, it was a season-long refusal to acknowledge a problem that hurt the team.

It has been suggested that the Pens had to play JJ because of injuries. That's not true and it only serves to give the front office cover they don't deserve here. The Pens weren't compelled to keep playing JJ all year out of necessity, they were compelled to do it to justify an albatross contract after talking nonsense about why he was scratched by his last team.

And it's hard to believe it ends here with JJ, but we'll see. He shouldn't be in the line-up ever again.

The team really, really, really should have realized it, though. They have all the resources, film, metrics we don't even see, scouts, etc.

That said I'm not really interested in taking anyone to task. We all have bad takes. I used to think that Koltsov and Christensen were going to actually be something, FFS. You have any idea how many times I've been super wrong? What right do I have, really?

I just want it fixed. But that might be too big an ask which... again... leads us back to the "why the **** is this even a thing to begin with?!?" portion of the program.

But yeah... ultimately I know what you mean, Empo. Can't go back and change it now. Nothing wrong with hoping for the best moving forward.

This.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But yeah... ultimately I know what you mean, Empo. Can't go back and change it now. Nothing wrong with hoping for the best moving forward.

Yeah, this is the ultimate core thought I have here. Like this team made a mistake signing Johnson, everyone knows this. It took the team a year or so, but the team also figured it out. They're trying to move him. He's very possibly a healthy scratch to start the year. They're doing what they need to do, I just want to be happy with that, not be reminded that they didn't do this before now

Either way it's a moot point because that's all in the past, whether they should have done it sooner won't impact games going forward. All that matters is that they actually do it, and I don't blame anyone for saying "I'll believe it when I see it".

 

[Shady Machine]

I like how you think this is a reasonable response to "this place and other sections of Penguins fans is overly negative". Responding to that with "if you don't like it, then gtfo" doesn't really help your case here. Calling this place "overly negative" is like calling the sky blue, it's just a fact. That doesn't mean you just worship every move and everything the Penguins do, but it's also completely fair to say that this place is way more jaded than the average Penguins fan.

Where would I find the average fanbase to compare?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Where would I find the average fanbase to compare?

I think you can get a good idea of the average fanbase by doing things like talking to co-workers or peers and get their stance on the Penguins. The average Penguins fan won't know that Johnson is bad because his xGF%Rel is a negative with the Penguins or something like that

There's obviously a big spectrum, it goes from "Sidney Crosby is good because the radio man says he's good" to "Dominik Simon is their best defensive forward due to his great shot suppression charts and strong xGA/60Rel", so you'll just have to ask around to get a good idea. I can think of a couple of co-workers I'd classify as "average Penguins fans", people who can come up to their own conclusions from watching but aren't so in tune that they can right a thesis on a player.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think you can get a good idea of the average fanbase by doing things like talking to co-workers or peers and get their stance on the Penguins. The average Penguins fan won't know that Johnson is bad because his xGF%Rel is a negative with the Penguins or something like that

Maybe "jaded" isn't the right word, but I think "critical" is fair.

I don't live in Pittsburgh, but based on friends/family, I'd say the average fanbase is just not knowledgeable enough to have an opinion worth caring about. That said, yes we tend to be a more jaded/skeptical/critical group. I think that's just the nature of the internet. I appreciate the counter balance many posters bring to the board.

 

[Victor Z]

If the Pens are to have success once again this season, they must move on from Sully. Hockey coaches have a short shelf life, Penguin coaches are even shorter.

He was not a genius, he simply made some good decisions in regards to lines and playing time. I should also note the moves that propelled the Pens were out of necessity rather than a genius at work.

Now after 2 cups, the meathead believes he reinvented the game. NOT GOOD.

FIRE SULLY by February please! Do it JR, or you will never sniff a shot at another cup.

I'm not on board with firing Sully yet, but the bolded part is 100% accurate. Although it was a refreshing change from the Pens' typical neurotic mistrust of all young players who don't have obvious top-of-the-line talent, even the fact that the "Wilkes-Barre Five" or whatever they were called worked out as well as possible hasn't changed the organizational approach overall much, the occasional Jake Guentzel aside.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wait why are the Penguins firing Sullivan now? He's been making good coaching decisions this entire pre-season so far. Not only do teams not fire coaches who haven't even started their multi-year extension yet, but Sullivan hasn't even done anything fire-worthy since getting the extension. Hell, he's done a good job so far this year, he's actively trying new and unique ideas instead of defaulting to what he has done before.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah honestly I saw a lot of red flags from Sullivan last year but grading on recent choices, he's actually looked pretty good.

I think that most problems Sullivan exhibits are problems that are more or less universal with most NHL coaches.

Though it'll be very, very interesting to see how he handles a few different lineup decisions this year.

 

[Peat]

Yeah honestly I saw a lot of red flags from Sullivan last year but grading on recent choices, he's actually looked pretty good.

Honestly I think that most problems Sullivan exhibits are problems that are more or less universal with most NHL coaches.

Though it'll be very, very interesting to see how he handles a few different lineup decisions this year.

Anything you're thinking of in particular here?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Anything you're thinking of in particular here?

I'd say Johnson/Riikola and Tanev are 2 good examples. I wouldn't be surprised for Sullivan to give Tanev a little too much rope while in the top-6.