GWT: Premier League Week of 1/14-1/15

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
I think it was interesting that most people were practically 100% certain Pep would walk into England and easily win the title. That was the narrative from a lot of posters here, and a lot of the media, especially since the squad he was inheriting had been so successful in England already, and he'd have a ton of money to improve it as he saw fit.

Maybe this has been eye opening.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
113,290
15,656
Guardiola doesn't look like a genius when he hasn't got a team with 4/5 of the best players in the world at their positions scudding ***** like Tenerife every week. What a shock.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
Also it wasn't the first time Pogba did what he did to Henderson, with no punishment.

tumblr_oef9owEm3l1tf8a5ao1_500.gif


Shame the ref wasn't in a better position to make a call on it against wee Joe Allen.
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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Conte was using the 4-1-4-1 to start the season. He switched to the 3-5-2 that they have been using since in game 7 against Hull, which kicked off their winning streak.

Kante is definitely not a weak passer, he had one of the best passing percentages in the EPL last season iirc, and is doing well again this year.

Not sure how anyone can say Chelsea plays passive defense and doesn't press? Sure they aren't pressing the full 90 minutes, but their front line presses quite a bit to try and force the other team to play long balls, Kante presses like a mad man in the midfield just like last year, and Matic is there to support him. They essentially use 3 lines of pressure to support each other to try and force turnovers, and it works most of the time.

Depends how you define "weak passer". Kante is at 88.7% so far this season in the PL. Wanyama stands at 88.3%. Would anyone consider Wanyama a good passer? 88.3/7% isn´t a disaster, but considering both of them are mainly making the easy pass I don´t think it is anything special at all.

I love Kante, but he is a limited passer of the ball. I would argue slightly better than Makelele, but nowhere near DMs with a real ability to pass like Carrick. Kante will never dictate the tempo of the game through his passing. To his credit like Makelele he rarely try to be more expansive in the way he passes then what his ability allows.
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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Depends how you define "weak passer". Kante is at 88.7% so far this season in the PL. Wanyama stands at 88.3%. Would anyone consider Wanyama a good passer? 88.3/7% isn´t a disaster, but considering both of them are mainly making the easy pass I don´t think it is anything special at all.

I love Kante, but he is a limited passer of the ball. I would argue slightly better than Makelele, but nowhere near DMs with a real ability to pass like Carrick. Kante will never dictate the tempo of the game through his passing. To his credit like Makelele he rarely try to be more expansive in the way he passes then what his ability allows.

I wasn't trying to say he was a special or exceptional passer, but he almost always makes the right decision and delivers an accurate pass. You're right that his passing won't dictate a game, so maybe that would be his weakness. His pace, determination, and especially his stamina does dictate games though. Not many guys can still sprint as hard and often at the 90' mark as they could at the 10' mark.

Easily signing of the season at this point, right?
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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I think it was interesting that most people were practically 100% certain Pep would walk into England and easily win the title. That was the narrative from a lot of posters here, and a lot of the media, especially since the squad he was inheriting had been so successful in England already, and he'd have a ton of money to improve it as he saw fit.

Maybe this has been eye opening.

This was the narrative going all the way back to when he was hired. Now that it isn't working out, it's been "City isn't good enough", "City has too many injuries", "he didn't have a chance to bring in his own guys", etc

Can't have it both ways.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Depends how you define "weak passer". Kante is at 88.7% so far this season in the PL. Wanyama stands at 88.3%. Would anyone consider Wanyama a good passer? 88.3/7% isn´t a disaster, but considering both of them are mainly making the easy pass I don´t think it is anything special at all.

I love Kante, but he is a limited passer of the ball. I would argue slightly better than Makelele, but nowhere near DMs with a real ability to pass like Carrick. Kante will never dictate the tempo of the game through his passing. To his credit like Makelele he rarely try to be more expansive in the way he passes then what his ability allows.

Being expansive or playing long balls is hardly the same as dictating the game through your passing. Although I agree with Blender that Kante does a lot of other things to dictate the game offensively. He often plays higher up the pitch and has Fabregas or Matic, who certainly can dictate the game through their passing.

The thing is that De Rossi, to whom you originally compared Kante negatively in this regard, is also a technically gifted destroyer, not someone who will run the game.

This was the narrative going all the way back to when he was hired. Now that it isn't working out, it's been "City isn't good enough", "City has too many injuries", "he didn't have a chance to bring in his own guys", etc

Can't have it both ways.

Haven't seen anyone say Pep doesn't bear some of the blame but you absolutely can say that we were just as wrong about City's quality and transfer window as we were about Pep's ability to compensate for those things. Personally my faith in City's roster was driven by higher hopes for Gündogan (who has been unhealthy), Fernandinho (who has been undisciplined), and Bravo (who turned into a crappy keeper overnight).
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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Bravo's horrid play has probably been a combination of him declining, and no longer being protected by an excellent back line. Playing behind Barcelona may have made him look better than he actually was. We all know the back 4 is City's biggest weakness.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Bravo's horrid play has probably been a combination of him declining, and no longer being protected by an excellent back line. Playing behind Barcelona may have made him look better than he actually was. We all know the back 4 is City's biggest weakness.

Most of his decline is independent of the back line. He was a similar goalkeeper at Barca as he was for Chile and Sociedad. A lot of his mental mistakes are of the kind that he never or very rarely made before. He did have a very poor Copa America last summer though. Maybe Barca sold him just in time.
 

Paulie Gualtieri

R.I.P. Tony Sirico
May 18, 2016
12,366
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I wonder who does a better headlock between Pogba and Ranieri. :popcorn:


Edit: Seems like my timed link isn't working. Skip to 1:53.
 

Havre

Registered User
Jul 24, 2011
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I wasn't trying to say he was a special or exceptional passer, but he almost always makes the right decision and delivers an accurate pass. You're right that his passing won't dictate a game, so maybe that would be his weakness. His pace, determination, and especially his stamina does dictate games though. Not many guys can still sprint as hard and often at the 90' mark as they could at the 10' mark.

Easily signing of the season at this point, right?

Then we agree. As stated I love Kante and I think he is a very very good player, but he is not a "destroyer" like Roy Keane who could also pass the ball exceptionally well (not being as good as Roy Keane is hardly much criticism though).

In the PL I´m not sure how many really good signings we have seen. Gueye was clever business from Everton. Kante is better than Wanyama, but in terms of value for money it is hard to argue that Kante is 3x more valuable. Also interesting in the head to heads this season Wanyama has been the better player for at least 3 out of 4 halves (second half at Stamford Bridge the only that maybe went Kante´s way). Ibrahimovic for "free" is hard to get away from. Kante in today´s market is fully worth his 32m pounds though.

That said I do question if he was the right player for Chelsea. I might be wrong, but I can´t see this line-up work against really strong teams. Both in the PL and in Europe next year. You might dominate Leicester with Moses - Matic - Kante - Alonso, but that is a very weak midfield in terms of keeping the ball when you are up against Modric and Kroos and teams close to that level. I already think they have been found out by Spurs. Fabregas hasn´t got the legs to play in a 4 like that against high intensity opposition and they just don´t keep the ball well enough without him. Now - Kante isn´t the problem, but with him in a flat 4 they need someone far more complete than Matic. They need Fabregas with his legs from his Arsenal days or someone like Modric. Maybe they would have been better off long term to have spent the Kante-money on someone like that instead. Asking Matic to sit more. I don´t know, but it will be very interesting to see what they do with the midfield come summer.


Being expansive or playing long balls is hardly the same as dictating the game through your passing. Although I agree with Blender that Kante does a lot of other things to dictate the game offensively. He often plays higher up the pitch and has Fabregas or Matic, who certainly can dictate the game through their passing.

The thing is that De Rossi, to whom you originally compared Kante negatively in this regard, is also a technically gifted destroyer, not someone who will run the game.

I don´t see any way how he dictates play at all with his passing. It´s not like he is another Xavi going pass move pass move pass move either. He wins the ball and usually safely gives it to someone else. I don´t have a problem with players like that. And Kante is probably the best in the business at doing it at the moment. I just don´t see how he is more than that. Like Dembele he is a very "safe" passer, but he rarely creates chances or dictates the tempo (Dembele is in my opinion a better passer than Kante, but he also rarely opens play up etc. with his passing - accuracy is very very high though - higher than Kante).

I guess Conte never set up Italy to run the game - at least not against good teams, but I still think Conte then wanted the deeper of the 3 central midfield players to pass the ball in a very different way than he is asking Kante to pass it today. I do believe you have a good point with Motta though. As you say if Conte really wanted a "old school" deep playmaker he would have used Motta more.
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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Then we agree. As stated I love Kante and I think he is a very very good player, but he is not a "destroyer" like Roy Keane who could also pass the ball exceptionally well (not being as good as Roy Keane is hardly much criticism though).

In the PL I´m not sure how many really good signings we have seen. Gueye was clever business from Everton. Kante is better than Wanyama, but in terms of value for money it is hard to argue that Kante is 3x more valuable. Also interesting in the head to heads this season Wanyama has been the better player for at least 3 out of 4 halves (second half at Stamford Bridge the only that maybe went Kante´s way). Ibrahimovic for "free" is hard to get away from. Kante in today´s market is fully worth his 32m pounds though.

That said I do question if he was the right player for Chelsea. I might be wrong, but I can´t see this line-up work against really strong teams. Both in the PL and in Europe next year. You might dominate Leicester with Moses - Matic - Kante - Alonso, but that is a very weak midfield in terms of keeping the ball when you are up against Modric and Kroos and teams close to that level. I already think they have been found out by Spurs. Fabregas hasn´t got the legs to play in a 4 like that against high intensity opposition and they just don´t keep the ball well enough without him. Now - Kante isn´t the problem, but with him in a flat 4 they need someone far more complete than Matic. They need Fabregas with his legs from his Arsenal days or someone like Modric. Maybe they would have been better off long term to have spent the Kante-money on someone like that instead. Asking Matic to sit more. I don´t know, but it will be very interesting to see what they do with the midfield come summer.

I don't think the lineup is good enough to compete or win a CL either, I think that's obvious.

I do think buying Kante was the right move as he wasn't that expensive compared to the value he brings, and he's young enough to be a core member of the club along with Hazard for years to come. I'm 100% on board with you that they need to add a dynamic midfielder to play with Kante though, as they don't have that player now. Moses and Alonso have been excellent this season, but I'm not sure they are good enough to compete with the best.

I'm not really sure who would be available to play that midfield role along side Kante, but of they can find the right player it could be extremely dangerous.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Then we agree. As stated I love Kante and I think he is a very very good player, but he is not a "destroyer" like Roy Keane who could also pass the ball exceptionally well (not being as good as Roy Keane is hardly much criticism though).

In the PL I´m not sure how many really good signings we have seen. Gueye was clever business from Everton. Kante is better than Wanyama, but in terms of value for money it is hard to argue that Kante is 3x more valuable. Also interesting in the head to heads this season Wanyama has been the better player for at least 3 out of 4 halves (second half at Stamford Bridge the only that maybe went Kante´s way). Ibrahimovic for "free" is hard to get away from. Kante in today´s market is fully worth his 32m pounds though.

That said I do question if he was the right player for Chelsea. I might be wrong, but I can´t see this line-up work against really strong teams. Both in the PL and in Europe next year. You might dominate Leicester with Moses - Matic - Kante - Alonso, but that is a very weak midfield in terms of keeping the ball when you are up against Modric and Kroos and teams close to that level. I already think they have been found out by Spurs. Fabregas hasn´t got the legs to play in a 4 like that against high intensity opposition and they just don´t keep the ball well enough without him. Now - Kante isn´t the problem, but with him in a flat 4 they need someone far more complete than Matic. They need Fabregas with his legs from his Arsenal days or someone like Modric. Maybe they would have been better off long term to have spent the Kante-money on someone like that instead. Asking Matic to sit more. I don´t know, but it will be very interesting to see what they do with the midfield come summer.




I don´t see any way how he dictates play at all with his passing. It´s not like he is another Xavi going pass move pass move pass move either. He wins the ball and usually safely gives it to someone else. I don´t have a problem with players like that. And Kante is probably the best in the business at doing it at the moment. I just don´t see how he is more than that. Like Dembele he is a very "safe" passer, but he rarely creates chances or dictates the tempo (Dembele is in my opinion a better passer than Kante, but he also rarely opens play up etc. with his passing - accuracy is very very high though - higher than Kante).

I guess Conte never set up Italy to run the game - at least not against good teams, but I still think Conte then wanted the deeper of the 3 central midfield players to pass the ball in a very different way than he is asking Kante to pass it today. I do believe you have a good point with Motta though. As you say if Conte really wanted a "old school" deep playmaker he would have used Motta more.

Matic is extremely complete and has been playing deeper than Kante in the recent matches from what I've watched. Their midfield group is very good. Kante isn't as good at running the game as the likes of Modric, Iniesta, and Gündogan, but he does some very nice things offensively especially without the ball. They don't need a player of that caliber though just as Conte's Italy still did very well at the Euros without Veratti. Of course they and any team will be an outsider on paper against Bayern, Real, Barca, but I don't foresee any EPL team joining that group in the near future.

I assume you're talking about Spurs Dembele? He doesn't need to make spectacular passes because his midfield dribbling is so good that he can regularly break a line of the defense and make a safe pass, and the ball will still be in a better position than it was before. Kante isn't as good of a dribbler but he still has some nice offensive attributes.
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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Matic is extremely complete and has been playing deeper than Kante in the recent matches from what I've watched. Their midfield group is very good. Kante isn't as good at running the game as the likes of Modric, Iniesta, and Gündogan, but he does some very nice things offensively especially without the ball. They don't need a player of that caliber though just as Conte's Italy still did very well at the Euros without Veratti. Of course they and any team will be an outsider on paper against Bayern, Real, Barca, but I don't foresee any EPL team joining that group in the near future.

I assume you're talking about Spurs Dembele? He doesn't need to make spectacular passes because his midfield dribbling is so good that he can regularly break a line of the defense and make a safe pass, and the ball will still be in a better position than it was before. Kante isn't as good of a dribbler but he still has some nice offensive attributes.

Not sure if I understand the logic of "don´t need". I think the tide has turned again for the PL. I don´t think we will ever see a league dominate as it did with the old top 4 and having 2-3 teams in the CL semis every year, but when the league once again can attract players like Pogba, Mhikitaryan, Ibrahimovic etc. without losing anyone significant - you know you are on the right track. I certainly think all of the current top 6 should try to build teams that can compete with the likes of RM, Barcelona and BM. All three which will have to replace Ronaldo, Messi, Robben, Ribery etc. Exceptional players that they just can´t expect will be that easily available for them next time around.

I remember when Matic returned to Chelsea. Looked like a beast who could also take the game at the scruff of it´s neck - almost Vieira like. Since then he has just become more and more a nothing player for me. Got a lot of natural ability, but so often so average. Personally I think he is better suited to sit deeper and with those odd bursts forward. Won´t work with Kante in a flat 4. Could work with Kante if they played 2-3-1 with two deep CMs/DMs.

Dembele doesn´t need? Again not sure what that means. If Dembele passed the ball like Modric he would arguably be the best CM in the World (personally I think he would easily be the best). Dembele is still very good without that kind of passing, but just like Kante isn´t as good as Roy Keane was because of his limited passing Dembele isn´t the best CM in the World either.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Not sure if I understand the logic of "don´t need". I think the tide has turned again for the PL. I don´t think we will ever see a league dominate as it did with the old top 4 and having 2-3 teams in the CL semis every year, but when the league once again can attract players like Pogba, Mhikitaryan, Ibrahimovic etc. without losing anyone significant - you know you are on the right track. I certainly think all of the current top 6 should try to build teams that can compete with the likes of RM, Barcelona and BM. All three which will have to replace Ronaldo, Messi, Robben, Ribery etc. Exceptional players that they just can´t expect will be that easily available for them next time around.

Good luck with that. If Barca or Madrid want an EPL player, they'll still get him eventually. Messi has a good 4+ years left as a world class player if he wants to stay with Barca. The best of the best talents will still want to go to those teams, not to the EPL.

Dembele doesn´t need? Again not sure what that means. If Dembele passed the ball like Modric he would arguably be the best CM in the World (personally I think he would easily be the best). Dembele is still very good without that kind of passing, but just like Kante isn´t as good as Roy Keane was because of his limited passing Dembele isn´t the best CM in the World either.

To be effective. If you make a dangerous dribble to get around an opponent suddenly a pass that was dangerous before becomes easy.
 

Havre

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Barcelona had a long dry spell before Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc. came through. In the same way ManUtd misjudged on Di Maria it isn´t given that Barcelona will find players as good as Neymar and Suarez forever.

Personal I´m not convinced Chelsea will fill their stadium, but due to their downtown location I´m sure the new stadium will bring in a lot more money from men in suits. Spurs will soon more than double their match day revenue. ManUtd can already compete with anyone financially and Arsenal are no longer afraid of spending 40-50m pounds on players. City I´m not sure what will happen to. Depends on FFP I guess. Liverpool still got a strong brand world wide even if they will soon be behind the Utd, Arsenal and Spurs when it comes to match day revenue (already behind Utd and Arsenal of course).

In the same way everyone thought English football would dominate forever with the success English clubs had with SAF, Mourinho at Chelsea first time around, Benitez etc. these weak European showings by English clubs won´t continue as they have lately.

And still Dembele isn´t anywhere close to someone like Modric.
 

Halladay

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Feb 27, 2009
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Also it wasn't the first time Pogba did what he did to Henderson, with no punishment.

tumblr_oef9owEm3l1tf8a5ao1_500.gif


Shame the ref wasn't in a better position to make a call on it against wee Joe Allen.

Why would Liverpool want their most important player yesterday sent off :laugh:?
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Barcelona had a long dry spell before Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc. came through. In the same way ManUtd misjudged on Di Maria it isn´t given that Barcelona will find players as good as Neymar and Suarez forever.

Personal I´m not convinced Chelsea will fill their stadium, but due to their downtown location I´m sure the new stadium will bring in a lot more money from men in suits. Spurs will soon more than double their match day revenue. ManUtd can already compete with anyone financially and Arsenal are no longer afraid of spending 40-50m pounds on players. City I´m not sure what will happen to. Depends on FFP I guess. Liverpool still got a strong brand world wide even if they will soon be behind the Utd, Arsenal and Spurs when it comes to match day revenue (already behind Utd and Arsenal of course).

In the same way everyone thought English football would dominate forever with the success English clubs had with SAF, Mourinho at Chelsea first time around, Benitez etc. these weak European showings by English clubs won´t continue as they have lately. The idea that a club like Spurs should be "competing" with Barcelona on paper is out of this world though.

And still Dembele isn´t anywhere close to someone like Modric.

As I said, "in the near future" i.e. as long as Messi, Busquets, Neymar, and Suarez are around and healthy. Hard to say how things will stand 5 years from now. The idea that a club like Tottenham should compete with Barca on paper is out of this world though.

No one else is particularly close to Modric.
 

les Habs

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Guardiola is 4th in spending over the last 10 years.
760M€.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=126328273&postcount=221

Which doesn't prove your point. Here is approximately some of what Pep spent, net, according to Transfermarkt:

08-09: 40 million
10-11: 20 million
11-12: 13 million
13-14: 22 million
14-15: nothing

That's five of those ten years you referenced where he spent 40 million or less. So the point I was making was that he doesn't "usually" spend like crazy and as what I'm posting here shows he doesn't.

Guardiola doesn't look like a genius when he hasn't got a team with 4/5 of the best players in the world at their positions scudding ***** like Tenerife every week. What a shock.

LOL

This was the narrative going all the way back to when he was hired. Now that it isn't working out, it's been "City isn't good enough", "City has too many injuries", "he didn't have a chance to bring in his own guys", etc

Can't have it both ways.

I'm not having it both ways. I and at least one other person have noted that we were wrong and Pep is partly responsible. That said the season isn't over and injuries like that to Kompany have clearly made an impact.
 

Evilo

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Mar 17, 2002
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Which doesn't prove your point. Here is approximately some of what Pep spent, net, according to Transfermarkt:

08-09: 40 million
10-11: 20 million
11-12: 13 million
13-14: 22 million
14-15: nothing

That's five of those ten years you referenced where he spent 40 million or less. So the point I was making was that he doesn't "usually" spend like crazy and as what I'm posting here shows he doesn't.
So you're trying to imply he doesn't spend "like crazy" by saying he spent not so much of his 760M in the ast 5 years (which means he must have spent at a Mourinho pace the 5 years before).
Come on, Guardiola is a massive spender, as the 760M figure proves.
What's never talked about is Ancelotti's spending however.
 

Deficient Mode

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So you're trying to imply he doesn't spend "like crazy" by saying he spent not so much of his 760M in the ast 5 years (which means he must have spent at a Mourinho pace the 5 years before).
Come on, Guardiola is a massive spender, as the 760M figure proves.
What's never talked about is Ancelotti's spending however.

Probably because he like Guardiola wasn't the driving force for such deals. He just presided over three of the biggest spending clubs in that time period. No manager could possibly have enough clout to walk into Madrid and tell Perez not to buy new toys. Milan in that era wasn't a small spender either.
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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As I said, "in the near future" i.e. as long as Messi, Busquets, Neymar, and Suarez are around and healthy. Hard to say how things will stand 5 years from now. The idea that a club like Tottenham should compete with Barca on paper is out of this world though.

No one else is particularly close to Modric.

Not any more so than AM doing it.

Spurs are already the 12th richest club in the World. With a stadium that is totally obsolete. Soon they will probably be 1st or 2nd on match day revenue due to the high ticket prices in London (Arsenal is now 1st). They won´t match the financial muscles of Barcelona, Real Madrid or ManUtd anytime soon, but a team like BM is certainly within reach over the next 5 years.

Depending on how FFP plays out in the end the World could very well look like:

RM
Barcelona
ManUtd
BM
Arsenal
Tottenham
Liverpool
Juventus

With PSG, City and Chelsea finding their places somewhere in between depending on how strict FFP ends up in reality being.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Not any more so than AM doing it.

Spurs are already the 12th richest club in the World. With a stadium that is totally obsolete. Soon they will probably be 1st or 2nd on match day revenue due to the high ticket prices in London (Arsenal is now 1st). They won´t match the financial muscles of Barcelona, Real Madrid or ManUtd anytime soon, but a team like BM is certainly within reach over the next 5 years.

Depending on how FFP plays out in the end the World could very well look like:

RM
Barcelona
ManUtd
BM
Arsenal
Tottenham
Liverpool
Juventus

With PSG, City and Chelsea finding their places somewhere in between depending on how strict FFP ends up in reality being.

Bayern is not in reach for Tottenham. Revenue doesn't translate perfectly to buying power, even if Tottenham did reach Bayern in revenue, which they also won't do. Bayern's revenue grew by €302M from 2009 to 2016. Tottenham's revenue grew by €146M from 2009 to 2015, and will definitely not grow enough this year to approach Bayern's level. Bayern is the #1 destination for every player and coach in the German-speaking world, an area full of extremely talented players and coaches, and they have a very good academy of their own. Tottenham is the sixth largest club in England, and bought most of their key players from other clubs. There's simply no way you can slice it that you could possibly be optimistic that Tottenham will catch Bayern.

Clubs like Atletico and Juventus also don't operate in the same inflated market as Tottenham. Spain is the first stop for talented and cheap South American players, and also develops a lot more of its own talent than the EPL, and talented homegrown players are far easier to find.
 

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