GWT: Premier League Round 24

[Prntscrn]

It’s almost like they need a player who can...ah forget it.

I agree but I also think there is more to it since the rest of the players doesn't seem to know how and where to move when they don't have the ball. Everyone looks clueless

 

[Cassano]

Liverpool fans are overreacting here. Just a week removed from demolishing City's defense. Shit like this happens.

 

[YNWA14]

I agree but I also think there is more to it since the rest of the players doesn't seem to know how and where to move when they don't have the ball. Everyone looks clueless

You can definitely see the difference in offensive structure between a team like City and Liverpool. You can't tell me that Firmino/Mane/Salah are incapable of 'unlocking' a defence like that. The thing is that Klopp has said it many times -- he believes pressing and transitions are the best playmakers and it's clear that's where most of this team's focus is in training. That's why you get these polar opposite results.

 

[Burner Account]

Liverpool fans are overreacting here. Just a week removed from demolishing City's defense. **** like this happens.

Realistically, yes. I was able to take a step back last night and remind myself:
A) I was only expecting three points from the City and Swansea fixtures
B) It's their first loss since October

I think it's just particularly frustrating since this problem spans years, and the club just sold its best player at unlocking defenses with no immediate replacement in sight.

 

[YNWA14]

the club just sold its best player at unlocking defenses with no immediate replacement in sight.

Is there any actual evidence that this is true? I don't think he's been any more consistent at 'unlocking defenses' than a few other players we have. The issue is with consistency and structure. It's hard to find consistency in breaking down these types of teams when that's not the focus of your training.

 

[Burner Account]

Is there any actual evidence that this is true? I don't think he's been any more consistent at 'unlocking defenses' than a few other players we have. The issue is with consistency and structure. It's hard to find consistency in breaking down these types of teams when that's not the focus of your training.

While I'm by no means anti-analytics, this one is an eye test for me. Coutinho was IMO the best player on the team at dribbling in tight spaces, taking players on, and at give-and-gos. I also think he was the best at picking out passes and that he had imagination and creativity like no other player in the squad has. He was also the best free kick taker on the team.

Liverpool is built to succeed from out wide, with Mane and Salah at their best when they have open space to run into. That's only effective against teams that actually want to play football and will turn the ball over. Everyone knows this, and so crap teams will gladly concede possession out wide without giving them that room to run. It does look like they focus on that in training - and it's great to watch - but how often are you actually allowed to play like that vs. how often teams will just park it?

 

[Savant]

I think Klopp got the team horrifically wrong.

There is no reason for both Can and Gini to play against those kind of teams. They were both terrible yesterday. What Can does well is nullified in games like this and Gini again proved to be invisible on the road in most games; especially against non-top six opposition. Lallana should have started and not getting him on until Chamberlain went off was really stupid. Trent also should have started. Gomez needs a break, and they could have used Trent’s offense more than Gomez defense against a parked bus.

The fact that the back ups to the front three are currently Ings, Solanke and Woodburn should terrify Klopp quite frankly. This is a team that lost their first game after an 18 game unbeaten stretch and all that got them was a two point lead on the 5th place team. It’s still only January. Liverpool need to improve that forward line before the end of the month or they are in deep trouble. They may have (or may not) be able to replace Coutinho in the midfield, but they can’t replace him as the forward as presently constructed. It’s a big problem.

 

[Savant]

While I'm by no means anti-analytics, this one is an eye test for me. Coutinho was IMO the best player on the team at dribbling in tight spaces, taking players on, and at give-and-gos. I also think he was the best at picking out passes and that he had imagination and creativity like no other player in the squad has. He was also the best free kick taker on the team.

Liverpool is built to succeed from out wide, with Mane and Salah at their best when they have open space to run into. That's only effective against teams that actually want to play football and will turn the ball over. Everyone knows this, and so crap teams will gladly concede possession out wide without giving them that room to run. It does look like they focus on that in training - and it's great to watch - but how often are you actually allowed to play like that vs. how often teams will just park it?

But the thing is Liverpool didn’t break down buses WITH Coutinho either. The only time that they missed him in my opinion was on the free kick that Salah took.

With the second paragraph there is nothing there that is new and nothing that should have surprised them. I don’t think certain players on the team get fired up for those games and the tactics are usually bad.

Liverpool deserved to lose.

 

[YNWA14]

I don't know that saying they deserved to lose is really fair. They still created more chances than Swansea, and I don't like to give credit to teams that just sit back with 10 players behind the ball with no forward intent (against anyone, I don't care if it's Arsenal or even United, as much as I'm happy to see either team lose). That said they definitely need to have a more refined approach to these games. There's no reason that we should look so baffled against teams that park up like this -- I don't know that there's any other top team that has as much trouble breaking down a parked bus as we do. Right now we have enough quality where we can just 'brute force' our way through those teams on most occasions, but it never looks an overly confident performance, and that is down to the coaching staff definitely not the quality of these players.

 

[Savant]

I don't know that saying they deserved to lose is really fair. They still created more chances than Swansea, and I don't like to give credit to teams that just sit back with 10 players behind the ball with no forward intent (against anyone, I don't care if it's Arsenal or even United, as much as I'm happy to see either team lose). That said they definitely need to have a more refined approach to these games. There's no reason that we should look so baffled against teams that park up like this -- I don't know that there's any other top team that has as much trouble breaking down a parked bus as we do. Right now we have enough quality where we can just 'brute force' our way through those teams on most occasions, but it never looks an overly confident performance, and that is down to the coaching staff definitely not the quality of these players.

They deserved to lose because they were horrible. It was the worst game that they played all season. 0-0 was the best they could have hoped for. Swansea got them to play exactly how they wanted them to and Liverpool obliged them. They need more bodies. Ferguson broke buses by just throwing on more strikers and keeping the pressure on until the dam broke. Liverpool yesterday proved they don’t have the resources for that. If Danny Ings is the answer I don’t know what the question is. If they are ready to let Sturridge leave because of Solanke how come he can’t get off the bench (especially this was a game made for him). If Woodburn is supposed to help with losing Coutinho, why wasn’t he available on the bench? These are legitimate questions. Same thing happened in last January.

I saw Swansea get shut out by a third tier US club team this summer. And Liverpool couldn’t? Carvahal May be a nice coach but he shouldn’t be worth a 6 goal swing.

 

[YNWA14]

Well do you think that Swansea had to work hard for their goal? At the end of the day set pieces can be tricky, especially against a team that probably trains set pieces and defending almost exclusively.

I've long had issues with Klopp's team/player selections and have always said this. Again, the issue isn't in the quality of players we have available (just look at the gulf in quality between the two teams, complaining that in order to beat Swansea we need to buy another ridiculously expensive attacker is just silly); Woodburn and Solanke could have both helped in this game IMO. The issue is that Klopp is very rarely pragmatic, and his in game decision making has always been questionable. He has his flaws like most managers, unfortunately.

 

[Savant]

Well do you think that Swansea had to work hard for their goal? At the end of the day set pieces can be tricky, especially against a team that probably trains set pieces and defending almost exclusively.

I've long had issues with Klopp's team/player selections and have always said this. Again, the issue isn't in the quality of players we have available; Woodburn and Solanke could have both helped in this game IMO. The issue is that Klopp is very rarely pragmatic, and his in game decision making has always been questionable. He has his flaws like most managers, unfortunately.

I think Swansea has to work hard to nullify Liverpool. Which they did.

Putting Lallana in for Chamberlain was more choreographed than a professional wrestling match and once again shows Klopp’s deficiencies in making tactical substitutions; which really hurts them in games like this. And again. You can’t say you have cover, if you don’t use the cover.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I don't know that there's any other top team that has as much trouble breaking down a parked bus as we do.

Spurs, for one.

 

[hatterson]

Spurs, for one.

United had insane amounts of trouble last year as well.

 

[Cassano]

Someone photoshop Klopp as Robin Hood. Steal from the rich, gift to the poor.

 

[YNWA14]

This is actually amazing.

 

[S E P H]

Never change Liverpool, lol. Mane doesn't suck, but just hasn't been the same since coming back from injury. Don't get the hate for him.

 

[East Coast Bias]

This is fantastic

 

[YNWA14]

It's funny how often it seems like you play a team that defends in a low block with no attacking intent and they get one chance in the game to score and they bury it. Meanwhile the attacking team has plenty of chances and just can't put it away. It's such a weird thing, that. It happens all the time too.

Great header by Firmino and unlucky not to bury it...Lallana I don't even know.

 

[hatterson]

It's funny how often it seems like you play a team that defends in a low block with no attacking intent and they get one chance in the game to score and they bury it. Meanwhile the attacking team has plenty of chances and just can't put it away. It's such a weird thing, that. It happens all the time too.

Great header by Firmino and unlucky not to bury it...Lallana I don't even know.

The defender got a piece of Lallana's shot. That's why it was a corner.

 

[YNWA14]

The defender got a piece of Lallana's shot. That's why it was a corner.

I'm aware of that, but I believe he should have done better in that position. Literally a touch to the side and nobody could have stopped him. No composure in that moment.

 

[hatterson]

He's snapping a foot at the ball after it came off the post and hit his thigh and the defender's foot is inches away from the ball. He didn't have time to turn his foot.

 

[YNWA14]

@DanKennett on twitter :
2 of Klopp's last 12 defeats were to Man City and Spurs.
The other 10 and the amount of possession:
Burnley A 80%
Bmouth A 60%
Saints A 68%
Swans H 73%
Saints H 72%
Wolves H 79%
Hull A 72%
Leics A 69%
Palace H 73%
Leics A 70%

Pretty damning.

Let Liverpool play with possession and you've got a better shot of beating them than if you try to actually play. Give them the ball and let them make the mistakes.

The way we approach low blocks is just silly. Liverpool wideplay is generally facilitated by overlapping wingbacks. What we need to do more is stretch the play and have underlaps against low block teams to bring them out of their shape and create space for others. Rather than the traditional mid-clogging 'heavy-metal' style that Klopp uses where the wide players act as inside forwards (for lack of a better term) and the fullbacks are counted on to create width he needs to play naturally wider with his attackers and have the midfielders provide underlapping runs to link up with the striker and have the fullbacks fill in holes in the midfield when necessary to supplement the defence. It also means that our fullbacks won't be caught out of position as much in transition when the other team counters (as they generally bypass the midfield anyway). If you have the ball wide left (and it should be very wide) having one of the midfielders make that underlapping run while the other shifts and offers a supporting option deeper for a pass meanwhile the opposite side winger can then cut in, and so on which still leaves for defensive stability with a midfielder back and the fullbacks not caught too far up the field. Anywayyyyy, I'm just rambling. Klopp is a world class coach and must have thought of these things already and has decided it doesn't suit the team or isn't effective (though I believe this is essentially how City attacks teams). But for sure, as effective as our narrow play is against teams that don't sit back in a low block, it's just as ineffective against teams that do and we need to be able to stretch the play more. It's not even a matter of having 'someone to unlock the defence' -- the fundamental way we approach attacking those teams means it doesn't matter if we have a 'playmaker' (which we have plenty of players that can dribble, and with vision).

 

[Evilo]

Firmino is just as much to blame as Lallana.

 

[Burner Account]

This is fantastic

NSFW