Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[wmupreds]

I wouldn't package Evangelista to get rid of Johansen's contract. Probably not L'Heureux either, although his "issues" make it a better gamble. I would consider Afanasyev, but I'm not sure his value is high enough for that to be possible anyway.

 

[nullednumbed]

I strongly disagree with his idea of packaging sweeteners to move the big contracts too. Very strongly disagree. Luke Evangelista as a sweetener to move Ryan Johansen? Hells no!!!

Buying out Johansen is far better IMO. But even if the money is somehow an impediment to the organization financially (it shouldn't be, we have to pay him $16M anyway, and dropping that to 2/3rds of $16M isn't worse if we're replacing him with some combination of Novak/Parssinen ($10.67M + $0.800M + 2x$0.850833M + Novak next deal isn't $16M, *and* we're counting TWO players here instead of one). There's no way it makes sense to throw Evangelista on top just to move him. Better, if we aren't worried about competing and aren't worrying about replacing that Cap space per the article, to just ride out the contract.... in that scenario, who really cares whether Johansen is our 4th line center for $8M? You don't start throwing in "sweeteners" just to move these deals. There isn't enough term left on them to take it that far, and his recipe is just to rebuild anyway, so why bother?

I appreciated the intent of the article but I 100% agree with you on this.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I appreciated the intent of the article but I 100% agree with you on this.

I think the main point that we'd like to see some coherent vision is definitely one that all of us can agree on, even if the particular steps in said vision will vary from person to person.

 

[PredsV82]

I actually like Alex’s take in this article. The only thing I strongly disagree with is his opinion on the coach.

A five step plan for fixing the Preds

This might actually work.

atozsports.com

You could have just said you want a full tank/rebuild with all new front office/coaches

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I wouldn't package Evangelista to get rid of Johansen's contract. Probably not L'Heureux either, although his "issues" make it a better gamble. I would consider Afanasyev, but I'm not sure his value is high enough for that to be possible anyway.

I wouldn't trade any of them. Giving away our positive assets does not "fix" us in any way. If we are desperate to clear short-term space then you buy-out Johansen and try to swing a deal with Granlund that take back a little less (and hopefully shorter-term) salary--e.g. Granlund for Poolparty with adds to make the numbers work, etc...

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I wouldn't trade any of them. Giving away our positive assets does not "fix" us in any way. If we are desperate to clear short-term space then you buy-out Johansen and try to swing a deal with Granlund that take back a little less (and hopefully shorter-term) salary--e.g. Granlund for Poolparty with adds to make the numbers work, etc...

This. If you're really just going the tank & rebuild direction, then you NEED to keep your top prospects like Evangelista, and it really makes no difference whatsoever if you ride out a couple more years with a bad contract like Johansen since you aren't trying to use that Cap space to compete anyway. Just a completely contradictory approach.

Now me, I still think this roster could "compete"... small c... not Contend big C... with just the right coaching change and a little bit of a firmer hand from the GM. How you make sure it's the "right" coaching change, however... well, that's the million dollar question. I guess like Meatloaf, Poile is singing "two outta three ain't bad" on coaches. But who knows with the next one. Still, since we're kind of handcuffed on payroll anyway, I don't see any issue in trying and seeing. What's the worst that can happen? We're already in the worst spot right now. Best case, he lands a winner, worst case we're in exactly the same spot we were going to be for the next 2 or 3 seasons anyway.

And the fate of players like Johansen and Granlund really isn't even a key factor in this approach either way. If you can trade them, or if the finance department is ok with buying out Joey, go ahead, because we already have internal options who are as good as they are. Or if you can't move them, no biggie, we're not spending that money anyway, just make sure they slot into the lineup in a purely meritocratic way while we ride out their contracts. They're still decent NHL players.

 

[weeze]

when do we start to pull the plug on Tomasino? That was a bad turnover and I think he looked pretty pedestrian tonight..

By that logic we should look at pulling the plug on every roster player on the team. Every one of them have made mistakes/bad passes, errors, turnovers and looked pedestrian at some point this season.

The kid, yes he is a kid, needs to know he won't get sent down or packing if he makes a mistake.

 

[triggrman]

so a friend of mine that lives in Colorado said to me "I told you Duchene would ruin your team, he has done it everywhere"

 

[ShagDaddy]

I’d much prefer they just retain half of Johansen’s contract than add a prospect to the trade. Johansen could be a good piece for a team at $4M. The Duchene contract on the other hand is probably not movable with just retention of salary. Evangelista would be the last prospect I’d add to any proposal though. If another team would accept Afanasyev or L’Huereux as the prospect to take the Duchene contract, I’d do that without any hesitation.

 

[Soundgarden]

Ugh, no giving away more of our best prospects for free to get out of bad contracts. Johansen and Granlund are both up in two years, just be patient and deal with our mistakes. For better or worse Duchene is going to have to be our vet presence.

 

[Roman Yoshi]

You could have just said you want a full tank/rebuild with all new front office/coaches

Thanks for the true out loud laugh today. Needed it.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

so a friend of mine that lives in Colorado said to me "I told you Duchene would ruin your team, he has done it everywhere"

Was kind of already trending that direction though. There's something rotten somewhere in the Josi-Johansen-Forsberg-Ekholm axis. I guess it could also be Sissons, but that would seem...strange.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Ugh, no giving away more of our best prospects for free to get out of bad contracts. Johansen and Granlund are both up in two years, just be patient and deal with our mistakes. For better or worse Duchene is going to have to be our vet presence.

Yeah I really think we just need to be willing to take the pain for a season or two instead of trying to find quick fixes. I'd move Niederreiter this offseason to clear up the capspace we need for the RFAs and then next offseason look into moving/buying out Johansen/Granlund. At that point the buyout for each of them is only 2 years or maybe you can move them for the last year of their contract with some retention.

At that point you also have another year of data on your prospects and young guys and can truly hatch a plan for the future. As much as I hate it I think a year of intentionally treading water a bit is the best option for our long term plan.

 

[LCPreds]

so a friend of mine that lives in Colorado said to me "I told you Duchene would ruin your team, he has done it everywhere"

What does that even mean in reality? Like outside of sports talk circles and general rumor mill stuff?

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

What does that even mean in reality? Like outside of sports talk circles and general rumor mill stuff?

He was on an Avs team that alternatively pushed for the playoffs and tanked for high picks, got f'd around with by Roy, was publicly put on the trade block and then not traded--this was with his "childhood" team. Then gets traded to Ottawa, who at best can be described as "dysfunctional" (and there was the cab thing with them talking crap about one of the coaches). Then he's a good citizen and puts up good numbers in Columbus. Here he had an ok first season, awful second, was excellent in the third and has been ok this season. Outside of him getting paid too much for what he brings (not his fault) and murmurings that he wanted to be a center (but was placed on the wing--which he's seemed to embrace now) there haven't been any issues here either.

Think he gets a bad rap from being on a team that was rarely competitive to start, moved to a team that imploded (the Sens were another one of those fluke playoff runs covering up a mediocre squad situation), then ends up with us as we were already on the decline. It's possible he's a problem, but he isn't the reason why we declined as we have.

 

[Armourboy]

He was on an Avs team that alternatively pushed for the playoffs and tanked for high picks, got f'd around with by Roy, was publicly put on the trade block and then not traded--this was with his "childhood" team. Then gets traded to Ottawa, who at best can be described as "dysfunctional" (and there was the cab thing with them talking crap about one of the coaches). Then he's a good citizen and puts up good numbers in Columbus. Here he had an ok first season, awful second, was excellent in the third and has been ok this season. Outside of him getting paid too much for what he brings (not his fault) and murmurings that he wanted to be a center (but was placed on the wing--which he's seemed to embrace now) there haven't been any issues here either.

Think he gets a bad rap from being on a team that was rarely competitive to start, moved to a team that imploded (the Sens were another one of those fluke playoff runs covering up a mediocre squad situation), then ends up with us as we were already on the decline. It's possible he's a problem, but he isn't the reason why we declined as we have.

Yeah it's just website hyperbole at this point. Everyone talks crap about the people they work for, why people think it would be different in the sports world is beyond me.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, and that's basically what the Duchene narrative boils down too.

 

[Enoch]

What does that even mean in reality? Like outside of sports talk circles and general rumor mill stuff?

Avs fans are spoiled.

 

[wmupreds]

Was kind of already trending that direction though. There's something rotten somewhere in the Josi-Johansen-Forsberg-Ekholm axis. I guess it could also be Sissons, but that would seem...strange.

I don't know about "rotten". I mean those are all good players but outside of Josi not really elite or game breaking. Forsberg is really good but he's not really the standalone star and hasn't ever had the true playmaking center to elevate him. Johansen just didn't develop fully into what we all hoped. Ekholm is what he's always been, an important but somewhat complimentary piece, not a knock.

I know it's natural to ascribe more to it but it could just be we're overrating our own players. Happens all the time.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I don't know about "rotten". I mean those are all good players but outside of Josi not really elite or game breaking. Forsberg is really good but he's not really the standalone star and hasn't ever had the true playmaking center to elevate him. Johansen just didn't develop fully into what we all hoped. Ekholm is what he's always been, an important but somewhat complimentary piece, not a knock.

I know it's natural to ascribe more to it but it could just be we're overrating our own players. Happens all the time.

I'm not really referring to the ability/performance of the players. Duchene is sometimes alleged to be a cancer with not a lot to really back it up, I'm saying I think there are off-ice/personality issues on this roster (e.g. "country club") that seem to have been around for years and there are only a handful of those guys still left.

 

[wmupreds]

I'm not really referring to the ability/performance of the players. Duchene is sometimes alleged to be a cancer with not a lot to really back it up, I'm saying I think there are off-ice/personality issues on this roster (e.g. "country club") that seem to have been around for years and there are only a handful of those guys still left.

I know. I'm saying it might just be that the roster isn't that good and not the personality issues.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I know. I'm saying it might just be that the roster isn't that good and not the personality issues.

Well, that's also been the case, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

It's good to see that Forsberg has started skating. That's something like the 3rd of 6 steps to come back from a concussion.

 

[predhead1]

It's good to see that Forsberg has started skating. That's something like the 3rd of 6 steps to come back from a concussion.

So another month at least . . .

 

[nine_inch_fang]

So another month at least . . .

Not necessarily, getting past the cognitive tests and aerobic stress test (typically biking) are bigger hurdles, then a hard skating workout. Usually the rest falls in line pretty quick if you don't rush the first part.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

Was kind of already trending that direction though. There's something rotten somewhere in the Josi-Johansen-Forsberg-Ekholm axis. I guess it could also be Sissons, but that would seem...strange.

Forsberg and Johansen my guess