Post-Game Talk: Pre-Season GM 1: Canucks def. Kings - 4-3 (OT-Granlund,Virtanen,Baertschi,Boeser)

[Ryan Miller*]

You put young and talented players in a position to excel. It's not rocket science. You can put lipstick on a pig and call it a beauty queen but those are still just words.

No, you don't. You make them "earn it", especially when they aren't exactly Connor McDavids. You establish a baseline of performance that the player must meet, and when they don't, you reduce their ice-time, their role or just scratch them. Learning to meet expectations is called maturity.

I don't know why you are holding media fluff as gospel but you're free to do that. Most of us saw how Desjardins would refuse to put players in beneficial situations at the cost of winning because he wanted to roll lines.

Yes, Jason Botchford master-fluffer of Willie Desjardins.

That even he can pick up on the good work that WD did with Horvat and you can't is illuminating.

Literally his game plan was roll lines 1-4, lather, rinse and repeat. If you can come up with a legitimate argument of why we constantly saw Megna and Chaput riding shot gun with the twins when younger and legitimate "foundational" players are getting the shaft I would love to hear it. That's not development -- that is pandering to your "hardworking" waiver fodder and all it did was screw over the players we actually need to develop for the future.

If you could actually articulate your arguments with more clarity and attention to facts that would help this discussion.

Which younger, foundational players should have been riding shotgun with the Sedins instead?

Young player Markus Granlund was the Sedins' second most common linemate last season, and Goldobin got some time as well with them after he was acquired.

Megna (unknown percentage cause it was so little) and Chaput (10%) barely register as linemates for the Sedins.

Your hyperbole of them "constantly" playing with the Sedins underscores the weakness of your arguments. Moreover, you pass over how they only got time because the Sedins were slow and defensively atrocious last season.

Literally not one poster is suggesting to gift ice time -- but given that we have finished 28th and 29th respectively the last two years, I would much rather see a high talent rookie who's earned it get the spot over a last chance PTO guy.

We haven't had many high talent rookies who have earned it over the past couple years. Who is this high talent rookie that has been shafted for a PTO guy?

 

[Ryan Miller*]

Bo Horvat, clearly a sufferer of Stockholm Syndrome under the tyranny of WD's attempts to stall his development:

"Willie's been so great for me and for this team and for the organization. We want to play hard for him. We don't want to see anything happen."

 

[thepuckmonster]

Bo Horvat, clearly a sufferer of Stockholm Syndrome under the tyranny of WD's attempts to stall his development:

Do you actually think despite Virtanen liking WD he is lying when he said he barely spoke with him all season? This is a 6th OA prospect that has huge shoes to fill given who we passed on for him. There is legitimately no excuse for a coach to not communicate what he needs from a player.

This is Tortorella-refusing-to-attend-practice level tomfoolery. You will be hard pressed to find any player that publically takes a dump on their coach. Horvat developed in spite of WD and even then being pigeon holed into a defensive role did nothing for that side of his game.

Like... have I been watching an alternate reality from you? Horvat was the leading scorer of this team and still barely even got a look on the top PP unit. How else more does he need to prove himself? Or how about sending Stecher to the minors to roll the red carpet out for Philip Larsen to show his prowess.

Desjardins has even alluded that he was FORCED to play kids because management wanted it. And I haven't even touched on the prolific Linden Vey experiment yet.

He's a bad coach. It happens. He's gone. It's good because at the very least we now have a coach that gets that sending your 4th line up against the Kopitars, the Getzlafs + the Benns is probably a really ****ing bad idea.

 

[Ryan Miller*]

Before the infamous post-trade deadline tank job, are you honestly trying to argue that the Canucks roster was under-performing because of WD?

Virtanen is (hopefully was) a twerp and WD owes him nothing for being a 6th overall pick. Of course they didn't communicate much last year; Virtanen was barely an AHL-level player and WD was an NHL coach. Completely mind-boggling to argue that a coach should approach a player based on where he was drafted.

Every time Horvat was challenged by WD, he took it as a lesson to get better. Horvat is the player he is today largely because of how WD developed him; same with Baertschi, who went on his most productive run after the largely fan-maligned healthy scratch.

Perfect coach for this organization during the last 3 years.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Before the infamous post-trade deadline tank job, are you honestly trying to argue that the Canucks roster was under-performing because of WD?

Virtanen is (hopefully was) a twerp and WD owes him nothing for being a 6th overall pick. Of course they didn't communicate much last year; Virtanen was barely an AHL-level player and WD was an NHL coach. Completely mind-boggling to argue that a coach should approach a player based on where he was drafted.

Every time Horvat was challenged by WD, he took it as a lesson to get better. Horvat is the player he is today largely because of how WD developed him; same with Baertschi, who went on his most productive run after the largely fan-maligned healthy scratch.

Perfect coach for this organization during the last 3 years.

The fact that you think the bolded and the consecutive nonsense after is a valid justification honestly just tells me that I'm done with this. Enjoy the moustache and body twitching on an international circuit.

 

[Ryan Miller*]

Nah, I think I'll just enjoy watching Horvat, Granlund, Baertschi and Stecher play and seeing the legacy of WD.

You can enjoy developing players in your EA franchise by giving them icetime.

 

[Ryp37]

So fake pencils admits it was Benning horrible roster not Willie holding the team back

I mean both are true but

 

[CanaFan]

Nah, I think I'll just enjoy watching Horvat, Granlund, Baertschi and Stecher play and seeing the legacy of WD.

You can enjoy developing players in your EA franchise by giving them icetime.

lol "legacy"

Yep, cause everything Bo Horvat becomes *must* be to the brilliant development of Willie Desjardins. No 9th overall pick has ever become a 50 point scorer before. If we had any other coach but Willie no doubt Bo would be serving ice cream at the Cold Stone Creamery right now

 

[CanaFan]

"Bob Berry coached Mario Lemieux in his rookie season."

"Mario Lemieux is a great player."

"Bob Berry is a great development coach."

Fake Pencil's airtight analysis.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

And everyone has said as much. But at this point Jake has an uphill battle on a steep incline to even passively justify his draft position. I, just like everyone on this board, want him to succeed but it's going to take more than one good game to get there.

It is great to see him taking it seriously, I want to think Green had an involvement in that. He doesn't have to force a spot on the team but at +3 draft he needs to at the very minimum prove to be a last cut.

What does justifying his draft position have to do with this pre-season?. Stuff like that is only relevant on forums like this.
Virtanen only needs to justify a roster spot right now. That and being given (earning) a regular shift in meaningful games that start a couple weeks from now.
Doesn't matter if he was drafted 6th, 60th, or undrafted FA tryout.

 

[VanJack]

Before the infamous post-trade deadline tank job, are you honestly trying to argue that the Canucks roster was under-performing because of WD?

Virtanen is (hopefully was) a twerp and WD owes him nothing for being a 6th overall pick. Of course they didn't communicate much last year; Virtanen was barely an AHL-level player and WD was an NHL coach. Completely mind-boggling to argue that a coach should approach a player based on where he was drafted.

Every time Horvat was challenged by WD, he took it as a lesson to get better. Horvat is the player he is today largely because of how WD developed him; same with Baertschi, who went on his most productive run after the largely fan-maligned healthy scratch.

Perfect coach for this organization during the last 3 years.

Yep, he was a perfect coach alright, if your goal was to have the worst special teams in the league; the worst third-period team in the league; and you were 'tanking' to increase your odds in the lottery....otherwise, absolutely hopeless.

My prediction....Canuck Nation will be shocked at how much a difference coaching makes this season.

 

[Ryan Miller*]

Simplistic misrepresentation. WD didn't make Bo Horvat the player, obviously. He did, however, make him a better player.

You all can have your bizarre and out of touch, or over the top as Pronman describes them, opinions.

I'll place my arguments beside the much more eloquent, developed and level-headed points of Botch:

[Horvat] earned every inch he got, and that process with Willie for three years made him a better player... Say this for Desjardins, with Horvat he pushed all the right buttons.

 

[mathonwy]

Wow...

Botch huh?

Just appealing to authority all over the damn place...

 

[thepuckmonster]

If botchford is the gospel of journalistic standard I'm literally tapping out from hockey.

 

[member 290103]

Do you actually think despite Virtanen liking WD he is lying when he said he barely spoke with him all season? This is a 6th OA prospect that has huge shoes to fill given who we passed on for him. There is legitimately no excuse for a coach to not communicate what he needs from a player.

This is Tortorella-refusing-to-attend-practice level tomfoolery. You will be hard pressed to find any player that publically takes a dump on their coach. Horvat developed in spite of WD and even then being pigeon holed into a defensive role did nothing for that side of his game.

Like... have I been watching an alternate reality from you? Horvat was the leading scorer of this team and still barely even got a look on the top PP unit. How else more does he need to prove himself? Or how about sending Stecher to the minors to roll the red carpet out for Philip Larsen to show his prowess.

Desjardins has even alluded that he was FORCED to play kids because management wanted it. And I haven't even touched on the prolific Linden Vey experiment yet.

He's a bad coach. It happens. He's gone. It's good because at the very least we now have a coach that gets that sending your 4th line up against the Kopitars, the Getzlafs + the Benns is probably a really ****ing bad idea.

He was a bizarre guy. It was almost like the more people complained about his moves, the more he dug in and stuck with them.

 

[Ryp37]

No, you don't.

Willie D was a great coach for this organization, and almost willed a sad sack group of players to the playoffs last season based off a well-designed, conservative system.

He's admired around the league for the job he did in Vancouver last season; only Vancouver fans can't see that he squeezed every drop of winning potential out of last season's roster, having them playing meaningful games in February, while developing Baertschi, Granlund, Horvat and Stecher.

He had flaws like every coach has, especially illuminated when they are coaching a pitiful roster, but calling him "useless" after a single preseason game couldn't be more wrong-headed.

hey this post sounds familiar

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=134956813&postcount=714

Still, playoffs were a possibility for the players until relatively late in the season. Desjardins extracted all the possible ability out of that measly roster as he could, and his reputation around the league for doing so is far higher than it is in Vancouver.

 

[mathonwy]

He was a bizarre guy. It was almost like the more people complained about his moves, the more he dug in and stuck with them.

Not "almost like". That's EXACTLY what was going on.

WD was the poster child was passive aggressiveness.

I recall instances of somebody asking WD about a potential configuration of some sort and then nothing happens for 5 games and then it happens on the 6th game and lo and behold, it works.

 

[Ryan Miller*]

Wow...

Botch huh?

Just appealing to authority all over the damn place...

Not an appeal to authority, just his arguments are more convincing and stray closer to the facts than random message board posts about how Chaput and Megna were "constantly" playing with the Sedins.

I have respect for all your opinions, however mind-bogglingly they are constructed, but I am just self-identifying my arguments with Botch's on this one particular case.

 

[Pastor Of Muppets]

The fact that you think the bolded and the consecutive nonsense after is a valid justification honestly just tells me that I'm done with this. Enjoy the moustache and body twitching on an international circuit.

WD is one of the 5 worst coaches in Canuck history..The fact he was hired by Tom Renney (he's also in that top 5) for the Olympic team speaks volumes...

 

[CanaFan]

WD is one of the 5 worst coaches in Canuck history..The fact he was hired by Tom Renney (he's also in that top 5) for the Olympic team speaks volumes...

So he's the best unemployed coach out there?

Marvellous!

 

[Scott Stevens]

Hopefully him getting some time under Green has ignited something g in Jake because I know there's not one poster on this board wanting him to fail.

There are lots of posters that want him to fail.

Then they can be "right", and use him as a citation to prove their past rightness in future cases.

 

[krutovsdonut]

late to the party as i had to pvr the game.

that was mostly encouraging and entertaining.

nilsen seems bigger and taller than markstrom even though they are listed the same size. the comparisons end there though. nilsen looks like a project to me. i wonder if they figured they could just apply the markstrom rebuild template to his game.

virtanen scored on the first pre-season game last year too, but i liked what i saw.

boesser was hull-like with the soso game but a laser game winner and assist.

holm looked smooth and polished but only slightly more gritty than larsen and will have to relearn some stuff. might be elite in the ahl if he can avoid being hit, but i cannot see him sticking in the nhl until he learns to use his body.

burmistrov is intriguing talent-wise but i thought had some major positional and decision making issues. seems more like a prospect than an nhl player to me. needs to simplify his game based on what i saw.

goldobin looked lost. based on his line mates and deployment, green does not like him and goldobin is in tough to make the team.

baertschi and gudbranson looked good to me. granlund looked better to me, so maybe the centre thing works. stecher seems taller and he and del zotto were a tier above the other canuck d.

i love biega's willingness to reinvent himself shift by shift to stay in the nhl. the knights should have taken him. give him 18 minutes a game to figure it out and he might be their best dman after half a season.

horvat was trying to do too much. he may succeed henrik as captain but not on the pp.

dorsett looked ok.

upshall and white are not taking any jobs from anyone based on that game. lebate looks like a call up.

pedan is never going to be more than a #7 dman.

i think boucher needs something. maybe confidence, or maybe a willingness to grind it out instead of waiting for a pass, or maybe the khl.

 

[mathonwy]

Not an appeal to authority, just his arguments are more convincing and stray closer to the facts than random message board posts about how Chaput and Megna were "constantly" playing with the Sedins.

I have respect for all your opinions, however mind-bogglingly they are constructed, but I am just self-identifying my arguments with Botch's on this one particular case.

You quoting Botch stating a generalization and using it to prove your point that WD made Bo a better player is literally you appealing to authority.

Botch is not an authority. Botch is a journalist who's job is to entertain the masses by writing witty news articles. Sometimes he gets it right, sometimes he gets it wrong.

Are YOU knowledgeable enough or critically minded enough to determine when he's right and when he's wrong?

Do you even know how to craft an argument of your own?

Do you even know who these posters are that are posting these "random message board posts" you mentioned?

Self-identifying with a stance without actually critically analyzing that stance yourself is what lazy people do.

Putting your fingers in your ears and saying la la la while the people you are supposedly discussing with are putting forth logical counter-arguments is what willfully ignorant people do.

Everyone is free to be lazy and ignorant, just don't expect much discussion if you choose to be this way.

 

[valkynax]

WD is one of the 5 worst coaches in Canuck history..The fact he was hired by Tom Renney (he's also in that top 5) for the Olympic team speaks volumes...

Hehe I think that mustachio moron is probably top 3 worst coaches in modern NHL, the only two coaches I saw who are definitively worse are Ron Wilson and Dallas "Mr. Serious Business" Eakins.

Some say Joe Sacco was also pretty bad, never paid attention to him so I'm not sure.

Some still argue that Horvat and Baertschi succeeded because of Willie, while the fact remains that they push on despite Willlie's lunacy.

 

[hellstick]

WD is one of the 5 worst coaches in Canuck history..The fact he was hired by Tom Renney (he's also in that top 5) for the Olympic team speaks volumes...

Laforge
Keenan
Desjardins
Renney
Torts

Did...did I win?