Pre-Game Talk: PRE-ECF Thread (B/C Why not?)

[Navin R Slavin]

View attachment 225387
This is seriously great news for the franchise.

There was always pent up demand in this market. We've known it for years.

 

[Ole Gil]

The Canes historically had a habit of letting a key player or two walk, and then replacing them with trash, on top of lots and lots of injuries.

Cullen, Cole, Seidenberg, Whitney all walked as UFA's. They were replaced with much less talented players.

But the real frustrating part of the 05-06 to 09-10 era was the games lost to injury. The team just couldn't stay healthy. I think any year in that stretch they stayed even slightly healthy, they'd have made the playoffs.

 

[Roboturner913]

Just saw the McAvoy hit. Jesus Christ. That's the ugliest thing I've seen in a while. That needs to be at least 3 games. It will probably be nothing.

 

[DaveG]

I think it's the same question from two different angles. Obviously, we don't just pop out of nowhere to be a top four team every five years or so. We've got to be a good team at times in between. Why does that not translate into regular season success more often?

I'll delve I to this more a bit later tonight but I have a few theories on each one, 07 following 06 being the easiest to explain how things went sideways

 

[Drivebytrucker]

The Canes historically had a habit of letting a key player or two walk, and then replacing them with trash, on top of lots and lots of injuries.

Cullen, Cole, Seidenberg, Whitney all walked as UFA's. They were replaced with much less talented players.

But the real frustrating part of the 05-06 to 09-10 era was the games lost to injury. The team just couldn't stay healthy. I think any year in that stretch they stayed even slightly healthy, they'd have made the playoffs.

I will never forgive Rutherford for letting Whitney walk.

He should have retired a Cane. He signed a 2 year deal with the Yotes for like 3 million?

really?' we couldn't match that. Then he scores 77 points in a year and leads them to the Western Conference Finals while we're missing the playoffs for a decade

 

[The Faulker 27]

When you spend so little, there's no room for error. Look at NJ this year. Last year people were commenting about them being able to do it on a budget when the Canes can't. Now, NJ has an injury and some bad goaltending and they go from 97 points to 72 points in one season.

Can't have too many things be a problem and still make it when you have such a low payroll.
- Some of it has been goaltendings, but that's not everything.
- Skinner was a terrific scorer, but didn't make the players around him better and was poor defensively.
- Lindholm was a top 5 pick, where you'd want a guy that could drive a line, and he was a complementary player.
- Over the years (until Slavin and Pesce became 2nd year players), our defense was putrid with guys like Corvo, Gleason, Sanguinetti, McBain, Harrison, etc...
- Jordan Staal hasn't been what the team traded for and he's also missed time with injuries.
- Faulk had a rebound year this year, but was pretty bad for 2 years straight.

I'm not saying the goalies have always been bad, that Skinner, or Lindholm, or Staal, or Faulk, have been the problem, but when you spend so little, you don't have much room for error when the team lacks talent.

Also Rod. I am happy to say that I was certainly too hard on him around Decemberish, and obviously wrong in my opinion that he was a dipshit.

BREAKING: He's not a dipshit.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I will never forgive Rutherford for letting Whitney walk.

He should have retired a Cane. He signed a 2 year deal with the Yotes for like 3 million?

really?' we couldn't match that. Then he scores 77 points in a year and leads them to the Western Conference Finals while we're missing the playoffs for a decade

In retrospect that's the case. At the time there were quite a few people around here upset that he didn't waive his NTC so that he could be shipped to LA for a reported return of Colten Teubert.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Those teams were veteran clubs and with that, players are going to get old and decline. Francis, Wesley, Hedican, Brind'Amour, etc. went through that. The organization didn't draft well enough to replace that type of talent and build the type of team needed to support the quality, young core players they had. By the time the better drafting started to result in better supporting casts, Ward and Staal, at least in Carolina, had exited their primes.

You can't go so long (2001-2008) with your best 2nd day pick being a Jamie McBain and come away unscathed. Edmonton is going through the same issue right now.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The Canes historically had a habit of letting a key player or two walk, and then replacing them with trash, on top of lots and lots of injuries.

Cullen, Cole, Seidenberg, Whitney all walked as UFA's. They were replaced with much less talented players.

But the real frustrating part of the 05-06 to 09-10 era was the games lost to injury. The team just couldn't stay healthy. I think any year in that stretch they stayed even slightly healthy, they'd have made the playoffs.

Choking the last game of the season in 07/08 and 10/11 didn't help either.

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

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This is seriously great news for the franchise.

 

[berlin]

For the love of god please beat those dirt bags.

 

[Drivebytrucker]

In retrospect that's the case. At the time there were quite a few people around here upset that he didn't waive his NTC so that he could be shipped to LA for a reported return of Colten Teubert.

I take back everything I said. He's a puke for not waiving his NTC

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I take back everything I said. He's a puke for not waiving his NTC

LOL I know you're joking but there were quite a few people who thought Ray was being selfish in not taking the trade, especially since Teubert was something of a hot prospect at the time.

 

[CandyCanes]

Looks like no John on the call this round.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

LOL I know you're joking but there were quite a few people who thought Ray was being selfish in not taking the trade, especially since Teubert was something of a hot prospect at the time.

If I recall correctly, there were some reports LA also wanted him to sign an extension as part of the trade, which is why Whitney refused to waive. Can't blame him for that.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

If I recall correctly, there were some reports LA also wanted him to sign an extension as part of the trade, which is why Whitney refused to waive. Can't blame him for that.

Now that's a piece I'd forgotten about, BBA and I do believe you're right.

 

[CaniacSZN]

Nino - Staal - Williams
Svechnikov - Aho - Turbo
Foegele - Wallmark - McGinn
Martinook - McKegg - Brown

Nino and Teuvo together in the playoffs has been dominant, makes no sense to not play them together. And I’m sure the PP units that can’t produce anything stay the same since I haven’t seen any tweets about them changing. At least every player in the locker room is willing to die for RBA though.

 

[The Faulker 27]

Wouldn't mind seeing Nino put the biscuit in the basket a few times in this series.

 

[Wolfpuck]

1 game for McAvoy.

Game 1 is a must win.

 

[CaniacSZN]

1 game for McAvoy.

Game 1 is a must win.

Must win is a bit much. McAvoy is really good and important to the team but you think the Canes can’t win the series if they go down 1-0?

 

[Wolfpuck]

Must win is a bit much. McAvoy is really good and important to the team but you think the Canes can’t win the series if they go down 1-0?

Gotta take advantage of them being down one of their best defensemen. This is a great chance to steal one in Boston.

 

[DaveG]

I think it's the same question from two different angles. Obviously, we don't just pop out of nowhere to be a top four team every five years or so. We've got to be a good team at times in between. Why does that not translate into regular season success more often?

I'll delve I to this more a bit later tonight but I have a few theories on each one, 07 following 06 being the easiest to explain how things went sideways

I'll post something more indepth than this in the next few days, it's going to basically be a f***ing novel since I'll look at everything from our drafting and development failures over that time frame as well.

2002 - This one is actually the easiest of them to explain given the economics of the Pre-Cap era of the league. The 02 team was the culmination of a group of young players supported by some solid veterans overall, and this would be the core from a team that had made the playoffs from 1998/99-2002 all but one year:
Kapanen (28), Francis (38), O'Neill (25), Battaglia (26), Brind'Amour (31), Cole (23), Vasicek (21), Gelinas (31)
Hill (31), Hedican (31), Wesley (33), Ward (29), Malik (26), Wallin (26)
Irbe (34), Weekes (26)

2003 - Simply put 02 would be the last year that Irbe would prove to be an effective NHL netminder, the 03 team would be decimated by injuries with Wesley, Weekes, Cole, Vasicek, and Brindy all missing 15+ games, Brindy missing damn near half the season. Malik would be traded for Jan Hlavac and Harold Druken, both of whom did not work out here, and simply put the economics of the game caused the Canes to trade away Battaglia (for Vrbata) and Kapanen (for Brendl and St Jacques). They also lost Gelinas to UFA that season for the same reason. And even all that said, the team was still in playoff position before the Weekes injury, it would only fall off after that and not be able to recover for the remainder of the season. Also of note many of the teams top prospects at the time would not prove to be effective NHL players (Svoboda, Zigomanis, Knyazev, Kurka, DeFauw, Tselios, Malec) added with the bust of the Malik and Kapanen trades, further draining what depth the team did have.

The good news is that sparked a rebuild of sorts, and the Canes brought in a ton of new faces in prospects over the couple years including Justin Williams in a future trade with the Flyers for Danny Markov, who we acquired from Phoenix that offseason.

2006 - Was a bit of a rebuild on the fly. Mind you the 05 team on paper was already starting to take shape with some solid additions to the framework of the team, before that season was canceled. Matt Cullen was inexplicably allowed to walk by the Ducks, who the Canes also acquired Martin Gerber from for a 3rd round pick and Malec. They also snagged Frank Kaberle as a UFA from the Thrashers that offseason. With the season canceled and some solid prospects playing on a split-affiliation setup with the Flames in Lowell, the Canes were also able to scout a few other additions that would play a role including Mike Commodore. Interestingly enough, it was striking out on 2 UFAs following the 05-06 lockout that in fact set the team up for more success than it would have otherwise held. Missing out on both Adrian Aucoin and Paul Kariya allowed the Canes to be in a position to sign Oleg Tverdovsky, Ray Whitney, and Cory Stillman once the later two were released as part of the compliance buyouts. So the 06 team had this core group:

Stillman (32), Staal (21), Cole (27), Whitney (33), Brindy (35), Williams (24), Cullen (29), Vasicek (25)
Wesley (37), Kaberle (32), Hedican (35), Ward (33), Tverdovsky (29), Commodore (26), Wallin (30)
Gerber (31), Ward (21)

They would go out and bolster the lineup with Doug Weight and Mark Recchi as rentals due in part to injuries (Vasicek missed most of the season, Cole the last 20 some games until the Cup final) and in part because we were the best team in the East along with Ottawa from gate to gate that season.

2007 - As you can tell by the ages of the 06 core, there were a LOT of impending UFAs, especially as the UFA age had been lowered to 27 as part of the post-05 lockout CBA. Weight and Recchi would return to their previous teams, Gerber would head to Ottawa as a UFA, Cullen and A Ward to the Rangers, Stillman and Kaberle would miss significant time due to post-season surgeries that had them out for a significant amount of time, and most notably the players brought in to replace the lost depth would prove to be woefully inadequate to the task: Belanger, Letowski, and most notably Grahame. Grahame was especially painful as Manny Legace, a proven starter at the time, was had for a lower price by St Louis. With the injuries and the loss of about half the core the team missing the playoffs the following season was little surprise. Even with the acquisition of Gleason and Scott Walker, and the improving play of prospects Andrew Ladd and Chad LaRose, and Seidenberg at the deadline, goaltending far below the league average would sink the team that season and the next, missing by 4 and 2 points respectively.

2009 - Some of the 06 core was still in place, notably Ward, Staal, Whitney, and Brindy, but most notable was the revamping of the defense of which Gleason and Seidenberg were the start of. Notably adding to it was a trade of Cole for Pitkanen at the start of this season, the acquisition of Joe Corvo the previous year, and the continued development of Anton. They also had the benefit of a healthy season of Tuomo Ruutu (acquired for Ladd in 08) and Sergei Samsonov (acquired on waivers in 08). With a late-season re-acquisition of Cole and of Jussi Jokinen the team was in good shape heading to the playoffs. Also to note they had mostly good health that season aside from Williams and Walker. This would also prove to be Ward's breakout (re-emergence?) season and Leighton would somehow be non-shit tier as a backup, the first non-shit tier backup since *checks notes* Cam Ward.

Samsonov (30), Staal (24), Williams (27)/Cole (30), Whitney (36), Brindy (38), Ruutu (25), Cullen (32), LaRose (26), Walker (35)
Pitkanen (25), Gleason (26), Corvo (31), Seidenberg (27), Wallin (33), Babchuk (24)
Ward (24), Leighton (27)

2010 - Seidenberg left as a UFA, so lose one of our top 3 dmen right there, Babchuk signed back in Russia as he was still miffed about his handling by JR back in 06-07. Add to that this would be a season where the team was absolutely decimated by injuries. Corvo would miss 30+ games, Harrison 40+ games, Gleason 20+ games, LaRose 20+ games, Cullen 20+ games, Cole 40+ games, Ruutu 20+ games, Cam Ward 20+ games. Just far too many players in too key of roles to be missing that much time. And while the acquisition of Legace helped to hold the line in net, there was only so much that prospects Borer, Carson, and McBain could do to hold the fort on the blueline. Sutter showed significant improvement up front that season, but the other prospects up front were unable to add much.


So with our team next year, yeah injuries definitely have to be a worry. But unlike the other two seasons the team has its core at every position aside from net set long-term. That's why more than any other position getting Mrazek back under contract to something reasonable has to be priority 1 this offseason, followed by Aho, then re-signing/replacing Ferland.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

The other major factor is that I am hopeful that Dundon is not nearly as cheap as the prior ownership with a deep playoff run staring directly in his face. Hopefully the team is successful for enough years that they finally become a cap team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Gotta take advantage of them being down one of their best defensemen. This is a great chance to steal one in Boston.

Sometimes it has a reverse effect and a team plays harder after losing a guy, like the Canes did after losing Svechnikov.

 

[3CanesInTheBox]

Ferland is Arya Stark confirmed.

I’d like to add another comment, but spoilers. Even then some of you might know what it implies.

My mother and I literally just started season 2 today aljdfaldjfladjfaldj.

I've been spoiled about a few big things over the years because I don't live under a rock; but my mother, who doesn't even know what social media is, is comically unspoiled so it's been hilarious.

Anyway, when you wait a Hurricanes-Playoff-Drought amount of years to watch the show like I have, you kind of deserved to be spoiled lol.