Poor-Potential NHL Markets, plain and simple, or victims of the recession, etc.?

[MoreOrr]

I hope I don't get frowned up by Fugu for this, but since she saw fit to put one of my posts in the OP, that enables me the opportunity to give this thread a different title. What you see now is what I came up with.

(MOD: I took all the OT discussion from the Atlanta ownership suit against their law firm and moved it here. I am not responsible if the thread and/or title make no sense.)


Essentially, I guess I'm looking to put the focus on analyzing what are likely a number of reasons why certain relatively not long-existing NHL markets have evidently been struggling with fanbase support.
Are these markets truly hockey "no-man's-lands", or is there in fact reason to declare that a true NHL fanbase has been developing but that various factors have made that growth less apparent or have even hindered it?

Original question of this Post:

Here's a question: Is it only the NHL that's having problems in certain cities? You know, quite perhaps this isn't all about whether hockey isn't succeeding in certain markets but rather that the economy isn't great in general, and certain markets aren't profoundly sports oriented regardless of whatever sport it is... so when the economy dips, so dramically do the fan dollars that would be directed to sports. Atlanta, from what I've heard, is a city that isn't necessarily a great sports fanatic town to begin with.

So, if the economy were doing well, perhaps what is seen now as poor attention to the NHL in Atlanta, might actually be quite different. Perhaps the NHL has grown in popularity in Atlanta, as well as other "southern" or non-traditional market cities, but with the economic situation it simply appears as though it hasn't grown at all or has even dropped off.

Just speculating... but the bottom line is still that this isn't a purely NHL problem, as at least we know that the NBA is struggling as well. What's the NBA's problem... too much expansion into "......" type markets???

Click to read more...

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=NHL+revenues+up+billion



Look, I'm not here trying to blow sunshine and tell you everything is awesome, because I wish the league would change some things. My personal preference is to get teams out of Phoenix and Miami, and get teams into Winnipeg, Quebec, Hamilton and Houston.

But the point is, the vast majority of this thread is simply nothing more than scapegoating the southern markets out of spite and disdain. It's nothing more than using faux sophistication that really amounts to "I don't think southern hockey teams should exist," mainly using the irrelevant as "evidence" to support your stance and call southern markets "failures."

The reality is, by the same metrics used to call southern markets failures, virtually 75% of the teams in all sports leagues would have had the plug pulled on them at some point. Hell, in 1992, Toronto, Baltimore, Texas, Minnesota, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Cincinnati, San Diego and another 10 teams had higher attendance than the NY Yankees.

The NHL's problems are no different than ANY of the other sports leagues. In some cases, the NHL's in better shape. But we pin that on the Southern Expansion. Why? Because Winnipeg and Quebec lost their teams (even when that was the owners selling, municipalities passing on arena construction, and local ownership groups not stepping up/being thwarted). And while the bitterness is extremely valid, it's also extremely misdirected.

This.


People quote outliers such as the Leafs and then expect teams with far less history and "pedigree" (so to speak) succeed in places where the demand is not nearly as high.

In short, most sports teams' attendance is in direct correlation with how well the team did last year.

Also, (once again) this thread has gotten way off topic. So I will try to keep talking about the Atlanta Thrashers, unless one of my posts is quoted.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

Fair enough.

It is certainly true that the quality of hockey would increase if there were 24 teams.

It certainly is NOT true. Too high quality of average player merely chokes the game off into dead puck territory, unless you shrink it so drastically that every team is basically rolling three first lines (ie, six teams).

History has demonstrated quite solidly that the best quality hockey to watch is when there are mistakes to be made and exploited. Ie, the '80s.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Here's a question: Is it only the NHL that's having problems in certain cities? You know, quite perhaps this isn't all about whether hockey isn't succeeding in certain markets but rather that the economy isn't great in general, and certain markets aren't profoundly sports oriented regardless of whatever sport it is... so when the economy dips, so dramically do the fan dollars that would be directed to sports. Atlanta, from what I've heard, is a city that isn't necessarily a great sports fanatic town to begin with.

So, if the economy were doing well, perhaps what is seen now as poor attention to the NHL in Atlanta, might actually be quite different. Perhaps the NHL has grown in popularity in Atlanta, as well as other "southern" or non-traditional market cities, but with the economic situation it simply appears as though it hasn't grown at all or has even dropped off.

Just speculating... but the bottom line is still that this isn't a purely NHL problem, as at least we know that the NBA is struggling as well. What's the NBA's problem... too much expansion into "......" type markets???

Boo. Hoo.

Seriously, I couldn't give a damn about the cratering economy in Phoenix, Atlanta, or the umpteen other municipalities in the US that are now going back to dirt roads. I didn't hear any of this sympathy in the mid-90s coming out of Americans like yourself, or ******** like the Count, when the NHL ripped beloved community institutions out of Winnipeg and Quebec City because of issues with the economy and the dollar up here. All I heard back then was that the NHL had outgrown Canada and needed to move south for the greater good of the game, blah, blah, blah.

Suck it up. Also, there is no end in sight to the US economic decline, because of years and years of incredibly incompetent, quasi-banana republic financial mismanagement and corruption. This keeps up and problems with NHL hockey teams will be the least of your problems.

 

[KevFu]

Wowo... I came a little late to the party today. I had contemplated multi-quoting through 7 pages of posts and thought better of it. I'd end up with a novel and likely not making any sense.

Like I did!


I just spent 20 minutes looking for poll stats on percentage of Americans who are hockey fans... and now I can't remember where I was going to post it and why.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Boo. Hoo.

Seriously, I couldn't give a damn about the cratering economy in Phoenix, Atlanta, or the umpteen other municipalities in the US that are now going back to dirt roads. I didn't hear any of this sympathy in the mid-90s coming out of Americans like yourself, or ******** like the Count, when the NHL ripped beloved community institutions out of Winnipeg and Quebec City because of issues with the economy and the dollar up here.

Not for nothin' TGF, but of course you didn't. Back then not many of us had this thing, you know, called the Internet and platforms like Message Boards to offer our condolences.

 

[KevFu]

Boo. Hoo.

Seriously, I couldn't give a damn about the cratering economy in Phoenix, Atlanta, or the umpteen other municipalities in the US that are now going back to dirt roads. I didn't hear any of this sympathy in the mid-90s coming out of Americans like yourself, or ******** like the Count, when the NHL ripped beloved community institutions out of Winnipeg and Quebec City because of issues with the economy and the dollar up here. All I heard back then was that the NHL had outgrown Canada and needed to move south for the greater good of the game, blah, blah, blah.

Suck it up. Also, there is no end in sight to the US economic decline, because of years and years of incredibly incompetent, quasi-banana republic financial mismanagement and corruption. This keeps up and problems with NHL hockey teams will be the least of your problems.

I'd say at least 85% of USA hockey fans were behind Winnipeg and Quebec and thought it was completely and totally wrong for those two cities to lose their teams.

Who or what outlets were saying the NHL had out-grown Canada in support of Colorado and Phoenix taking the Diques and Jets?

I find it preposterous that any statement about the NHL's need to move into large US markets in warm weather climates were made OUTSIDE of expansion.

Hell, I bet the Coyotes and Avs FANS feel bad that their team came via relocation instead of expansion.


But hey, if you'd like to think that the 300 million of us down here just plot and scheme ways to steal the sport of hockey from Canada, have at it.

 

[AllByDesign]

But hey, if you'd like to think that the 300 million of us down here just plot and scheme ways to steal the sport of hockey from Canada, have at it.

Yeah... next you'll want our healthcare... Animals!!!!

 

[MoreOrr]

Are you angered by that? I don't understand unless you are happy with the current configuration of the NHL, which has teams in a lot of locations where the NHL is hardly on the radar. That's not good for the sport. Also, do you expect people to own a business that is losing 10s of millions each year in perpetuity just so a relatively small group of hardcore fans can enjoy NHL hockey? Step right up if you have the cash MoreOrr.

GHOST

I'm not happy for the NHL that yet another team in a large US market is likely to be trashed daily for not having a fanbase like it could have if it were in a Canadian city. Why should any of us be happy with the NHL having these problems; I assume that we're all here on this hockey forum because we're passionate about the League. I'm not happy that again much of this has come about because of ownership that hasn't really cared. Bad enough that some non-traditional markets struggle to establish a strong fanbase, but if ownership isn't fully behind trying to really establish that fanbase then it's a trainwreck waiting to happen. And yes, I'm not that excited by constant bashing by some Canadians of these NHL markets, it makes us appear hockey arrogant. I don't think trying to take revenge out on these teams, for what happened to Winnipeg and Quebec City when they lost their teams, is justified. It wasn't the fans of these teams that stole the Jets and Nordiques away. If anything, we should be supporting the fans of these teams, in the hope that if the economy changes again and it's eventually some Canadian teams that are on the chopping block, that fans from around the League aren't jumping on the bandwagon to move said Canadian teams to US cities.

Hey, I'm not saying that I'm against relocations, because definitely they're necessary at times. But I do dislike this vulture-like mentality that exists here.

And one other thing I'm discovering that I dislike is what's becoming terribly obvious, that the League doesn't seem to care whether NHL owners really have an interest in hockey or not. They absolutely refuse to let a guy like Balsillie have a team, a guy who's obviously absolutely passionate about having an NHL team in Hamilton, but instead they allow there to be NHL owners who barely have any real interest in hockey.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

I'm not happy for the NHL that yet another team in a large US market is likely to be trashed daily for not having a fanbase like it could have if it were in a Canadian city. Why should any of us be happy with the NHL having these problems; I assume that we're all here on this hockey forum because we're passionate about the League. I'm not happy that again much of this has come about because of ownership that hasn't really cared. Bad enough that some non-traditional markets struggle to establish a strong fanbase, but if ownership isn't fully behind trying to really establish that fanbase then it's a trainwreck waiting to happen. And yes, I'm not that excited by constant bashing by some Canadians of these NHL markets, it makes us appear hockey arrogant. I don't think trying to take revenge out on these teams, for what happened to Winnipeg and Quebec City when they lost their teams, is justified. It wasn't the fans of these teams that stole the Jets and Nordiques away. If anything, we should be supporting the fans of these teams, in the hope that if the economy changes again and it's eventually some Canadian teams that are on the chopping block, that fans from around the League aren't jumping on the bandwagon to move said Canadian teams to US cities.

Hey, I'm not saying that I'm against relocations, because definitely they're necessary at times. But I do dislike this vulture-like mentality that exists here.

And one other thing I'm discovering that I dislike is what's becoming terribly obvious, that the League doesn't seem to care whether NHL owners really have an interest in hockey or not. They absolutely refuse to let a guy like Balsillie have a team, a guy who's obviously absolutely passionate about having an NHL team in Hamilton, but instead they allow there to be NHL owners who barely have any real interest in hockey.

Somehow, I get the feeling you weren't nearly as sympathetic towards Winnipeg or Quebec City losing their teams as you are toward Phoenix and Atlanta potentially losing their teams.

Oh, and BTW, Ballsilly was a hothead trying to bully his way into the NHL. I don't care how powerful you think you are; that is not how to acquire an NHL team. TNSE on the other hand are following protocol dictated by the NHL, playing by THEIR rules. This is likely why they will be awarded either Phoenix or Atlanta, should they relocate this year. I couldn't be happier to get a team back in my city, and I'm don't feel bad for saying that.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

I'm not happy for the NHL that yet another team in a large US market is likely to trashed daily for not having a fanbase like it could have if it were in a Canadian city. Why should any of us be happy with the NHL having these problems; I assume that we're all here on this hockey forum because we're passionate about the League.

Um, they AREN'T happy with the League having these problems and they ARE passionate about hockey - that's exactly why they want relocation to Winnipeg/QC/Hamilton in the first place. The belief is that having teams in those locations will make the League BETTER than it is now.

And one other thing I'm discovering that I dislike is what's becoming terribly obvious, that the League doesn't seem to care whether NHL owners really have an interest in hockey or not. They absolutely refuse to let a guy like Balsillie have a team, a guy who's obviously absolutely passionate about having an NHL team in Hamilton, but instead they allow there to be NHL owners who barely have any real interest in hockey.

How do you lament people bashing US markets in favour of relocation and in the same breath support a guy like Basillie? He's the absolute embodiment of what you're condemning. He walked in, decided the way the NHL is currently set up wasn't good enough for him, and attempted to force change at the expense of one of these teams you're defending. He's 'passionate'? Well so what, all the fans who want to see a team moved to Winnipeg and QC are just as passionate about hockeys as he is. The only thing that happens to set him apart is a larger paycheck.

It seriously boggles my mind that people still deify the guy. People in Hamilton who have wanted a team should be running him out of town for what he did, he killed any hope whatsoever of a team playing in Copps.

 

[MoreOrr]

Somehow, I get the feeling you weren't nearly as sympathetic towards Winnipeg or Quebec City losing their team as you are toward Phoenix and Atlanta potentially losing their team.

Oh, and BTW, Ballsilly was a hothead trying to bully his way into the NHL. I don't care how powerful you think you are; that is not how to acquire an NHL team. TNSE on the other hand are following protocol dictated by the NHL, playing by THEIR rules. This is likely why they will be awarded either Phoenix or Atlanta, should they relocate this year, and I couldn't be happier to get a team back in my city, and I'm don't feel bad for saying that.

As someone said in an earlier post, it's not as if we all had the Internet back than and were members of a forum crying foul for what was happening to the Jets and Nordiques. At that time, we were all in our separate little corners as hockey fans and most of us weren't privy to all the goings on. And there also weren't daily barrages directed at those cities that were in danger their team. And you know, I highly doubt that even if there had been a forum like this back then, that we would've seen dozens of US hockey fans scavenging around in the hope that the Jets or Nordiques ended up in their city.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

As someone said in an earlier post, it's not as if we all had the Internet back than and were members of a forum crying foul for what was happening to the Jets and Nordiques. At that time, we were all in our separate little corners as hockey fans and most of us weren't privy to all the goings on. And there also weren't daily barrages directed at those cities that were in danger their team. And you know, I highly doubt that even if there had been a forum like this back then, that we would've seen dozens of US hockey fans scavenging around in the hope that the Jets or Nordiques ended up in their city.

Sounds like you are making excuses to justify what happened 15-16 years ago, and condemn what is potentially happening now. Oh well, like I said, there is a more than good chance that Winnipeg and Quebec City will be getting teams in the extremely soon future, and I couldn't be happier, regardless of how they acquire the teams.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

And you know, I highly doubt that even if there had been a forum like this back then, that we would've seen dozens of US hockey fans scavenging around in the hope that the Jets or Nordiques ended up in their city.

I love conjecture too!

 

[Duke749]

Sounds like you are making excuses to justify what happened 15-16 years ago, and condemn what is potentially happening now. Oh well, like I said, there is a more than good chance that Winnipeg and Quebec City will be getting teams in the extremely soon future, and I couldn't be happier, regardless of how they acquire the teams.

I don't know about that.

 

[MoreOrr]

It seriously boggles my mind that people still deify the guy. People in Hamilton who have wanted a team should be running him out of town for what he did, he killed any hope whatsoever of a team playing in Copps.

I'm not "deifying" Balsillie, I'm simply giving him credit for one thing, that's he would almost certainly be an owner who would be passionate about having an NHL franchise.

And as for Balsillie killing any hope whatsoever of a team playing in Hamilton... LOL. There was Never any hope of an NHL team being allowed in Hamilton, and secondly, if it's Balsillie that the League dislikes so much, then why should that stop Hamilton from getting a team... Is the League a group of little children who would take their vengeance out on the city because of one man that they hate who tried to put a team there?

 

[MoreOrr]

Sounds like you are making excuses to justify what happened 15-16 years ago, and condemn what is potentially happening now. Oh well, like I said, there is a more than good chance that Winnipeg and Quebec City will be getting teams in the extremely soon future, and I couldn't be happier, regardless of how they acquire the teams.

Where the hell are you getting that from? I'm not making excuses for anything. It was very unfortunate what happened to the Jets and Nordiques, especially for their fans. But there were also realities that brought about those things. Regardless though, we simply didn't have the Internet back then to be discussing as we are today.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

Where the hell are you getting that from? I'm not making excuses for anything. It was very unfortunate what happened to the Jets and Nordiques, especially for their fans. But there were also realities that brought about those things. Regardless though, we simply didn't have the Internet back then to be discussing as we are today.

Why do you keep bringing up the internet? What difference does it make what media was back then compared to now? There was media, and in both scenarios, people were and are informed on the situations.

Oh, and just like there were realities back then, there most certainly are realities now, and I think you need to realize and accept that. Again, I see you making excuses for why the Jets and Nordiques left, but not for what is happening in Atlanta and Phoenix.

 

[MoreOrr]

Why do you keep bringing up the internet? What difference does it make what media was back then compared to now? There was media, and in both scenarios, people were and are informed on the situations.

Oh, and just like there were realities back then, there most certainly are realities now, and I think you need to realize and accept that. Again, I see you making excuses for why the Jets and Nordiques left, but not for what is happening in Atlanta and Phoenix.

No, I'm not here making excuses for why the Jets and Nordiques left, I'm trying to make an argument why we shouldn't be happily trashing markets in Atlanta and Phoenix and clammering... get the teams out of there and put them where they'll be better appreciated.

Or is it you, and others like you, who are afraid that the only way Winnipeg and Quebec City will ever get NHL teams again is through relocation? If you truly believe that the NHL will never give those cities expansion teams, that the only way they'll get a team is because of the NHL desperately needing relocation sites, Then it's the League mentality about that which you should be complaining about, not specifically looking to particular NHL cities that you can attack and say that they don't deserve a team.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

No, I'm not here making excuses for why the Jets and Nordiques left, I'm trying to make an argument why we shouldn't be happily trashing markets in Atlanta and Phoenix and clammering... get the teams out of there and put them where they'll be better appreciated.

Hmmmm...............funny, isn't that what the NHL and countless others were saying with regards to Winnipeg and QC (get the teams out of there and put them where they'll be better appreciated, and look at how well that is turning out, lol)? Did you speak out against this like I did back in the day, or did you believe this to be the case? Or did you have excuses back then, too?

 

[MoreOrr]

Hmmmm...............funny, isn't that what the NHL and countless others were saying with regards to Winnipeg and QC (get the teams out of there and put them where they'll be better appreciated, and look at how well that is turning out, lol)? Did you speak out against this like I did back in the day, or did you believe this to be the case? Or did you have excuses back then, too?

Do you have some news Headlines (or some other source) from back then to support that claim?

 

[Puckschmuck*]

Do you have some news Headlines (or some other source) from back then to support that claim?

We all know that was the sentiment of the NHL, taking teams from smaller markets and placing them in the sunbelt, where there were supposedly "more fans" to "grow the game". No need to provide headlines for that as it is common knowledge.

And BTW you didn't answer my question: did you speak out against Winnipeg and QC being moved like you are about Phoenix and Atlanta potentially being moved?

 

[MoreOrr]

We all know that was the sentiment of the NHL, taking teams from smaller markets and placing them in the sunbelt, where there were supposedly "more fans" to "grow the game". No need to provide headlines for that as it is common knowledge.

And BTW you didn't answer my question: did you speak out against Winnipeg and QC being moved like you are about Phoenix and Atlanta potentially being moved?

Am I now speaking out against the Thrashers and Coyotes being moved? In fact, I already stated evidence to the contrary, with respect to the Coyotes... I stated comments in favor of Balsillie. No, what I'm speaking out against is the immediate, no constant, bashing of these teams by mostly Canadian fans because they hate that teams are in those markets and not in theirs, and jumping on every opportunity to trash those markets and demand relocation to Canadian cities. If some relocations eventually happen then they happen, but the clammering for it to happen is gotten to be excessive. Hell, when I first joined this site, I used to bring up relocation ocassionally too, but then eventually I realized that it was becoming excessively discussed, and at the expense of the fans of the respective teams.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

Am I now speaking out against the Thrashers and Coyotes being moved? In fact, I already stated evidence to the contrary, with respect to the Coyotes... I stated comments in favor of Balsillie. No, what I'm speaking out against is the immediate, no constant, bashing of these teams by mostly Canadian fans because they hate that teams are in those markets and not in theirs, and jumping on every opportunity to trash those markets and demand relocation to Canadian cities. If some relocations eventually happen then they happen, but the clammering for it to happen is gotten to be excessive. Hell, when I first joined this site, I used to bring up relocation ocassionally too, but then eventually I realized that it was becoming excessively discussed, and at the expense of the fans of the respective teams.

Fair enough, thanks for mostly answering my question. You also need to understand that the reason why many Canadians are talking about relocation of sunbelt teams is that when Winnipeg/QC were moved, we were told it was for the "betterment" of the league to "grow the game" substantially, essentially being told we were useless markets. That was and still is a slap in the face to many, including myself. And I still resent that, and will NEVER forget that. So yes, I am taking great satisfaction watching the sunbelt experiment collapse, and the potential move of Phoenix back to Winnipeg. I would love to see that happen; oh the irony of it all!

 

[HamiltonFan]

Um, they AREN'T happy with the League having these problems and they ARE passionate about hockey - that's exactly why they want relocation to Winnipeg/QC/Hamilton in the first place. The belief is that having teams in those locations will make the League BETTER than it is now.


How do you lament people bashing US markets in favour of relocation and in the same breath support a guy like Basillie? He's the absolute embodiment of what you're condemning. He walked in, decided the way the NHL is currently set up wasn't good enough for him, and attempted to force change at the expense of one of these teams you're defending. He's 'passionate'? Well so what, all the fans who want to see a team moved to Winnipeg and QC are just as passionate about hockeys as he is. The only thing that happens to set him apart is a larger paycheck.

It seriously boggles my mind that people still deify the guy. People in Hamilton who have wanted a team should be running him out of town for what he did, he killed any hope whatsoever of a team playing in Copps.

Actually, what seriously boggles the mind is people who believe that Balsillie did not first approach bettman and try to do this 'the right way', and play nice with the evil dwarf. I mean seriously, you don't think Balsillie initially tried to play by the rules to get his team? And as soon as he was laughed out of bettmans office by both bettman and mlse, what was he to do? Both bettman and mlse hate Hamilton with a passion. It doesn't matter who you are, Balsillie or Pope Benedict, if you want a team in Hamilton, then you're out of luck, it ain't gonna happen no matter who you are, or how 'nice' you play with the nhl.