Poor-Potential NHL Markets, plain and simple, or victims of the recession, etc.?

[MaskedSonja]

You're not allowed to make that comment.

Actually during one of these debate an Atlanta fan said the fans are bored with all of the winning they do.

I've heard that too-with the variation of "The pennant's fine, but how many World Series did they win during that time? Fans got used to winning the pennant, then flunking out in the playoff games."

I believe they won one or two did they not(World Series)?

 

[MaskedSonja]

EDIT:

Double post

 

[Aaronxxx]

I've heard that too-with the variation of "The pennant's fine, but how many World Series did they win during that time? Fans got used to winning the pennant, then flunking out in the playoff games."

I believe they won one or two did they not(World Series)?

that stretch had 5 world series appearances and only one win. try having a team like that and you see how quick you get bored of "all of the winning they do"

 

[CC Chiefs*]

that stretch had 5 world series appearances and only one win. try having a team like that and you see how quick you get bored of "all of the winning they do"

This is the biggest crock of crap and just goes to show how bad of sport town Atlanta is. Very fickle.

 

[MoreOrr]

This is the biggest crock of crap and just goes to show how bad of sport town Atlanta is. Very fickle.

This seems like a good place to bring what should be an obvious reality into the discussion right here... Cities like Atlanta get criticized for not being a sports town, and perhaps rightfully so, in comparison to cities, let's say like Philadelphia for instance. But then, can people really be criticized for having other, probably more serious priorities? And, I really wonder what some of those Canadian cities would be like if they were large enough to have 4 major league sports teams in town. Toronto manages with 4, if we include the CFL, but apparently Vancouver and Montreal won't support more. Would the same be true for Winnipeg and Quebec City if those cities had about 3 million or so people?

Canadian sports fans might say, hell why should any of us want the NBA or MLB here, but at least these non-traditional NHL cities have the NHL and are still struggling to keep their teams. Perhaps many of them will end up like the Expos did in Montreal, who knows. So, should the Montreal Expos be a good comparison here? How did Expos fans feel about losing the Expos?

 

[CC Chiefs*]

I'm going to bring this, what should be obvious reality into the discussion right here... Cities like Atlanta get criticized for not being a sports town, and perhaps rightfully so, in comparison to cities, let's say like Philadelphia for instance. But then, can people really be criticized for having other, probably more serious priorities? And, I really wonder what some of those Canadian cities would be like if they were large enough to have 4 major league sports teams in town. Toronto manages with 4, if we include the CFL, but apparently Vancouver and Montreal won't support more. Would the same be true for Winnipeg and Quebec City if those cities had about 3 million or so people?

Canadian sports fans might say, hell why should any of us want the NBA or MLB here, but at least these non-traditional NHL cities have the NHL and are still struggling to keep their teams. Perhaps many of them will end up like the Expos did in Montreal. So, should the Montreal Expos be a good comparison here? How did Expos fans feel about losing the Expos?

Great but baseball is an American sport as much as Hockey is a Canadian sport. Baseball and Basketball have struggled mightily in Canadian as Hockey has in the non-traditional markets. Football and Baseball are the primary sports in the non-traditional markets. So the 4 sport thing does hold water for the sport in Atlanta that has won and is a more traditional game in Atlanta.

 

[Duke749]

The Braves averaged over 30,000 from 92 to 03. Five of those years they averaged over 40,000. How is that bad attendence?

This is the biggest crock of crap and just goes to show how bad of sport town Atlanta is. Very fickle.

You're a Red Wings fan right? Yeh, easy for YOU to say something like that. Your team has had legit shots to win the cup for years and has won it multiple times.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Great but baseball is an American sport as much as Hockey is a Canadian sport. Baseball and Basketball have struggled mightily in Canadian as Hockey has in the non-traditional markets. Football and Baseball are the primary sports in the non-traditional markets. So the 4 sport thing does hold water for the sport in Atlanta that has won and is a more traditional game in Atlanta.

I might be mis-informed, I'm not a big baseball fan, but really, from what I've seenthe Expos since going to Washington, seem to be abysmal, and I'm wondering why Washington got the franchise in the first place, if it was just going to be run into the ground?

I was hoping that Washington might turn into a yearly contender, yet I don't see that yet-are they at least getting there?

 

[Aaronxxx]

This is the biggest crock of crap and just goes to show how bad of sport town Atlanta is. Very fickle.

what a great argument you have presented!

the postseason structure for mlb is very different from the nhl. in the nhl, half of the league makes the playoffs. for mlb, only eight of the thirty teams make it, so your team has to be GOOD to make the playoffs. fans of any sport in any city will start to resent a team that gets to the playoffs for 14 years straight and only become league champs once. do you realize how long 14 years is? a child can go through their entire basic education in less time.

 

[Dado]

The Braves averaged 31,000 this year.

That's about 2,500,000 annual attendance.

That's a lot of people.

 

[MoreOrr]

Great but baseball is an American sport as much as Hockey is a Canadian sport. Baseball and Basketball have struggled mightily in Canadian as Hockey has in the non-traditional markets. Football and Baseball are the primary sports in the non-traditional markets. So the 4 sport thing does hold water for the sport in Atlanta that has won and is a more traditional game in Atlanta.

I'm just saying that what has been being tried in cities like Phoenix and Atlanta, as well as Denver, and Dallas, is to have 4 major league franchises in cities in which hockey might reasonably be considered to be a "non-American" sport. The effort has been made, and is still being made. Would anyone even consider trying to make such an effort in Vancouver and Montreal... Oh wait, they did ... and where are those teams now... the NBA gone from Vancouver, MLB not even tried there; MLB gone from Montreal, the NBA not even tried there. So, are Vancouver and Montreal really "sports towns", or are they only hockey towns. Would Winnipeg and Quebec City be any different, if they were large enough to handle 3 or more major league sports?

What I'm saying is that we should be giving these cities, like Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas, and Denver, a bit of credit for at least being somewhat able to support 4 major league sports, including the so-called "non-American" sport of hockey.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

what a great argument you have presented!

the postseason structure for mlb is very different from the nhl. in the nhl, half of the league makes the playoffs. for mlb, only eight of the thirty teams make it, so your team has to be GOOD to make the playoffs. fans of any sport in any city will start to resent a team that gets to the playoffs for 14 years straight and only become league champs once. do you realize how long 14 years is? a child can go through their entire basic education in less time.

This actually sheds some light on it.

Thanks, I was wondering why the Braves were not selling out their arena.

 

[Dado]

fans of any sport in any city will start to resent a team that gets to the playoffs for 14 years straight and only become league champs once.

I'm not following. Your statement is demonstrably false with more counterexamples than I can count, but I don't detect any irony.

Are you actually serious about that claim?

 

[Puckschmuck*]

How did Expos fans feel about losing the Expos?

How did Jets fans feel about losing the Jets? How did Nordiques fans feel about losing the Nordiques?

I get the impression (IMO) you somehow think it's more tragic for places like Atlanta and Phoenix to lose their NHL teams in comparison to smaller Canadian markets like Winnipeg and QC. And again, you seem much more sympathetic towards Atl and Phx's position than Wpg's and QC's 15-16 years ago?

Can you explain all of this to me?

 

[Mayor Bee]

This is the biggest crock of crap and just goes to show how bad of sport town Atlanta is. Very fickle.

Reminds me of the time that one of my friends bought tickets for a World Series game right off the street an hour before the game started for below face value.

Now change "World Series" to "Stanley Cup Final", and "inferred to be Atlanta" to "actually Detroit", and you're got the real story.

 

[MoreOrr]

How did Jets fans feel about losing the Jets? How did Nordiques fans feel about losing the Nordiques?

I get the impression (IMO) you somehow think it's more tragic for places like Atlanta and Phoenix to lose their NHL teams in comparison to smaller Canadian markets like Winnipeg and QC. And again, you seem much more sympathetic towards Atl and Phx's position than Wpg's and QC's 15-16 years ago?

Can you explain all of this to me?

Why do you feel the need to say "more" tragic? Can't equally tragic be good enough? Oh, and when I say "equally tragic", I'm referring to the Montreal losing the Expos. I'm not referring to "hockey towns" like Winnipeg and Quebec City losing their NHL teams. But perhaps something somewhat equivalent to that on the US side would be Seattle losing the Sonics. Actually, it seems that Seattle lost the Sonics for something of the same reason why Winnipeg lost the Jets.

**** happens on both sides of the border, and in virtually all of the Leagues.

 

[AllByDesign]

How did Jets fans feel about losing the Jets? How did Nordiques fans feel about losing the Nordiques?

I get the impression (IMO) you somehow think it's more tragic for places like Atlanta and Phoenix to lose their NHL teams in comparison to smaller Canadian markets like Winnipeg and QC. And again, you seem much more sympathetic towards Atl and Phx's position than Wpg's and QC's 15-16 years ago?

Can you explain all of this to me?

Is this going down the 'Who loves who more?" road?

The point is that 15 years ago is 15 years ago. Hairstyles are different... fashion... music. Thomas Steen is in politics now. It is more prudent to be sympathetic to a reality of today, rather than lament something lost a generation ago.

 

[Duke749]

I'm not following. Your statement is demonstrably false with more counterexamples than I can count, but I don't detect any irony.

Are you actually serious about that claim?

Exactly how many teams in the 4 major sports have actually made the playoffs that many years in a row, let alone all being division titles?

 

[Dado]

Exactly how many teams in the 4 major sports have actually made the playoffs that many years in a row, let alone all being division titles?

I need clarification on the claim first. This is what I'm hearing, tell me if it's correct:

"Teams that win one championship in 14 years will be less supported if they make the playoffs all the time, than if they only make the playoffs sometime."

Does this also apply to teams that DON'T win any championships? I will assume so, because otherwise the claim devolves to "making the playoffs a lot and NEVER winning a championship will draw more fans than making the playoffs a lot and OCCASIONALLY winning a championship", which is quite ridiculous.

Once this is clarified, I can provide the appropriate examples.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Reminds me of the time that one of my friends bought tickets for a World Series game right off the street an hour before the game started for below face value.

Now change "World Series" to "Stanley Cup Final", and "inferred to be Atlanta" to "actually Detroit", and you're got the real story.

Two issues with that story. 1st the DRW aren't for sale and if they were they'd sell quickly. Second Detroit is not constantly in the red.

Detroit and around 10 other teams are keeping the NHL afloat. Nice try.

 

[Duke749]

I need clarification on the claim first. This is what I'm hearing, tell me if it's correct:

"Teams that win one championship in 14 years will be less supported if they make the playoffs all the time, than if they only made the playoffs sometime."

Does this also apply to teams that DON'T win any championships? I will assume so, because otherwise the claim devolves to "making the playoffs a lot and NEVER winning a championship will draw more fans than making the playoffs a lot and OCCASIONALLY winning a championship", which is quite ridiculous.

Once this is clarified, I can provide the appropriate examples.

Look, I don't think he worded that sentence the right way. Like I was saying before, they averaged over 30,000 from 92 to 03 with five of those years over 40,000.

We missed the playoffs and ending our streak in 05. The attendence really started to drop in 01, which was part to do with the fact that the teams of the 2000s, were nothing like the teams of the 90s we had. Tom Glavine left after the 02 season and Greg Maddux left after the 03 season. They were a big reason why we were so successful for all those years and why so many people wanted to come out to games. When we started losing the guys that put the Atlanta Braves on the map, it's going to hurt.

In 2000 we lost in the first round of the playoffs. In 01 we made it to the second round and lost in 5. From 02 to 05 we lost in the first round every year. Just trying to get a better perspective on why attendence dropped in the later years of their run.

 

[Aaronxxx]

look, obviously that was a large blanket statement that shouldn't be taken word for word. i'm not going to pretend i know the attendance records of every team that has 14 years of playoff appearances and one or less championship wins. i still stand by it that the reason braves attendance dropped off is due to their constant teasing of getting to the playoffs and not capitalizing. i live here, everyone i know is at least a casual braves fan, and that is the most common reason i've heard that people stopped making the effort to go to games.

this has gotten off topic. i'm dropping it.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Look, I don't think he worded that sentence the right way. Like I was saying before, they averaged over 30,000 from 92 to 03 with five of those years over 40,000.

We missed the playoffs and ending our streak in 05. The attendence really started to drop in 01, which was part to do with the fact that the teams of the 2000s, were nothing like the teams of the 90s we had. Tom Glavine left after the 02 season and Greg Maddux left after the 03 season. They were a big reason why we were so successful for all those years and why so many people wanted to come out to games. When we started losing the guys that put the Atlanta Braves on the map, it's going to hurt.

In 2000 we lost in the first round of the playoffs. In 01 we made it to the second round and lost in 5. From 02 to 05 we lost in the first round every year. Just trying to get a better perspective on why attendence dropped in the later years of their run.

So am I supposed to understand that winning isn't enough? Fielding a team through 162 games and making the post season isn't enough? The playoffs are much harder to make in MLB. Help?

 

[Dado]

since you decided to claim i am wrong without posting any information, i'll go ahead and show you some streaks

I am not claiming you are wrong, I am asking that you explain the claim, as I do not understand it.

Is your claim that having 14 seasons of playoff participation will DECREASE attendance relative to having less than 14 seasons of playoff participation?

If so, how many championships must be won in such a 14 year stretch for fans to not be "resentful"? If the team wins zero championships in that stretch, is that better or worse for attendance than winning one? If the team misses the playoffs 13 times in that 14 years, but wins the championship in that one, is that better for attendance over the period in question? If the team only wins one championship, how many times in the 14 seasons must it miss the playoffs outright to give attendance a boost?

I am asking because this is your original sentence:

"Fans of any sport in any city will start to resent a team that gets to the playoffs for 14 years straight and only become league champs once."

 

[Tommy Hawk]

I think of it this way. You could get set up on a date with a girl on the notion she has a twin. You later find out that it is a conjoined twin. You pause and think it might be kinky than find that the conjoined twin is a dude.

If that didn't make any sense I'll simplify. Do the Hawks have more or less value in a sale if you are forced to buy the multi-million losing hockey team along with? My hopes are for hockey in Atlanta but at this point they are a Liability.

Since both teams are part of the same organization, it is extremely simple from an accounting perspective to make one entity make money and the other lose money. It is as simple as changing the allocation of fixed assets or costs or corporate expenses such as executive payroll for example.

I'd just like to point out that the Thrasher Cup - competed for by colleges that don't even have hockey as a varsity sport - and once again rightfully won by the mighty Ramblin Wreck - draws about 6,000 fans.

In Savannah.

http://savannahnow.com/sports/2011-01-16/georgia-tech-skates-cup-title-4-1

IMO there is little doubt that Atlanta would be able to support a competently run franchise. And I agree with Killion that, if necessary, it would be better to kill of any number of other locations to make more competent management available to Atlanta.

totally agree.

The Braves won division titles for like 13 out of 14 seasons, and still had empty seats.

But still drew more than all other major sports teams in town, combined. Even the NFL selling out 70k per game would only be 560k, the Hawks at 20k per game would be 800k and the thrashers at 19k would only be 760k. Even if the braves drew only 25k fans per game, they would still draw 2 million fans which is more than if each team sold out all their games.

That's about 2,500,000 annual attendance.

That's a lot of people.

Yes it is.

Two issues with that story. 1st the DRW aren't for sale and if they were they'd sell quickly. Second Detroit is not constantly in the red.

Detroit and around 10 other teams are keeping the NHL afloat. Nice try thought.

Who says the RW are making a profit? Also, I would like to know how all you people define a "traditional" hockey market?

When I was growing up in Chicago, hockey for youth was not the first or second or even third choice of the kids. It was baseball, football, basketball, and the hockey.

Just wondering. There are many teams in "traditional" markets that struggled otherwise we might still have the maroons. Ottawa didn't have a team for many many years.

Thrashers are going nowhere. Be happy about it.